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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 347 to 371 of 412. Go back in thread:
Posted by curtm on June 6, 2006, at 21:02:40
In reply to Re: Implementation of trigger flags » Larry Hoover, posted by corafree on June 6, 2006, at 14:15:47
But should we not put ourselves in situations where we face our foes? I am not apathetic, I am naive. Cannot the exposure help someone work with those feelings that are triggered? Do we take agressive action to conquer our inhibitions or hide away forever?
I just don't understand the trigger hype. I know that around every corner could be a trigger and I go forth with the knowledge of that.
Posted by Dinah on June 6, 2006, at 21:32:37
In reply to How/where do I vote about trigger box choice...., posted by Kath on June 6, 2006, at 20:45:33
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20060525/msgs/652832.html
Posted by 10derHeart on June 6, 2006, at 21:32:52
In reply to How/where do I vote about trigger box choice...., posted by Kath on June 6, 2006, at 20:45:33
Just scroll the page up a little bit and you'll find it..."Implementation of...."
but this is even easier...
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20060525/msgs/652832.html
:-)
Posted by 10derHeart on June 6, 2006, at 21:35:40
In reply to Re: How/where do I vote about trigger box choice.. » Kath, posted by Dinah on June 6, 2006, at 21:32:37
Posted by Dinah on June 6, 2006, at 21:41:18
In reply to beat my post by 15 seconds! ;-) (nm) » Dinah, posted by 10derHeart on June 6, 2006, at 21:35:40
Posted by Tabitha on June 7, 2006, at 0:33:03
In reply to Re: Implementation of trigger flags » corafree, posted by gardenergirl on June 6, 2006, at 16:00:08
I think she put "abusive ex-husband" in the title, or something similar, right? To me that's a pretty good hint that the topic might contain some description of domestic violence.
Posted by Tamar on June 7, 2006, at 1:53:15
In reply to Look. Not to be cruel., posted by curtm on June 6, 2006, at 21:02:40
> But should we not put ourselves in situations where we face our foes? I am not apathetic, I am naive. Cannot the exposure help someone work with those feelings that are triggered? Do we take agressive action to conquer our inhibitions or hide away forever?
I can't speak for others, but exposure never helps me work with it unless the exposure is planned in advance and I've prepared myself. And even then, something that triggers me a lot can be very hard to face.
> I just don't understand the trigger hype. I know that around every corner could be a trigger and I go forth with the knowledge of that.
I don't know what you've experienced, and I don't know if your experience is comparable to mine, but the stuff that triggers me takes me back to situations where I have feared for my life. So when the emotions involved come flooding back all at once, I feel immobilised and incapable of continuing with everyday life until I've calmed down.
Does that explain things a bit?
Tamar
Posted by Gabbi~G on June 7, 2006, at 8:50:17
In reply to Re: about corafree's post, posted by Tabitha on June 7, 2006, at 0:33:03
That's exactly what I thought. I thought the trigger was redundant on that one. I'm glad it worked for Corafree but I think I would have felt really hurt and frustrated if I'd written it two of the responding posts were about my failure to put a trigger warning on it.
Posted by AuntieMel on June 7, 2006, at 8:52:39
In reply to Re: Implementation of trigger flags » gardenergirl, posted by Gabbi~G on June 6, 2006, at 18:30:43
Good on you for keeping your mind open. I know you were against it at first.
I vote yes, too. Especially since even Lar is ok with it not being mandatory (blockable) now.
Consensus! I love it.
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 7, 2006, at 10:26:28
In reply to Re: Look. Not to be cruel. » curtm, posted by Tamar on June 7, 2006, at 1:53:15
> I can't speak for others, but exposure never helps me work with it unless the exposure is planned in advance and I've prepared myself. And even then, something that triggers me a lot can be very hard to face.
You did speak for me, when you said that.
Babble is a supportive community. My guard goes down, in proportion to the support. It's my natural reaction, given the atmosphere. I think Bob has achieved something not found anywhere else in the world. That's my opinion of it.
Imagine you're walking down the street, sunny day, window shopping. You pass a bakery, and you see butter tarts in the window. Happy warm thoughts come to mind. Temptation. Issues of self worth. Good issues, of self worth. A moment later, you saunter off, still not sure if you will, or not.
In the next storefront is a huge movie screen, facing the street, filling the entire window. And on that screen are scenes of incredible violence, and suffering. Real people, in real distress.
There could be any sort of reaction to this. But I've lost my ability to choose. I could'a crossed the street, ya know? Gone the other way.
I don't ask that people who participate in the world in a different way than I do to change anything at all, except to add notice. It is commonplace, every day, to see warning notices. Real triggers need real notices.
It's on a continuum, what's a trigger. We *always* warn of high voltage electricity, even if it's behind seemingly impenetrable fencing and barbed wire. We give much more moderate notices about wall sockets, with their smaller electrical potential. We might let a baby hold a battery, under our careful gaze.
You can't watch TV, during the evening hours, without seeing notices. About the very thing I'm talking about here.
A trigger flag is notice.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 7, 2006, at 10:32:23
In reply to Re: Implementation of trigger flags » Gabbi~G, posted by AuntieMel on June 7, 2006, at 8:52:39
> I vote yes, too. Especially since even Lar is ok with it not being mandatory (blockable) now.
<grin>
I only said that because I was trying to understand the rules. Ya know?
A lot has been said since this subject first arose. Babblers stepped up. They spoke their minds. They spoke their hearts. And new ideas have sprung up, because of the speaking to.
What about my idea of a radio button, that Babblers can express their feeling of being triggered by a post.....such that if enough people do so, a trigger flag is produced. The threshold value for that has to be worked out by experience. We can't pick the perfect number ahead of time. The threshold is not yet known, but with open minds, we can sort that out, too.
Lar
Posted by curtm on June 7, 2006, at 11:32:42
In reply to Re: Implementation of trigger flags » AuntieMel, posted by Larry Hoover on June 7, 2006, at 10:32:23
> ...I was trying to understand the rules. Ya know?
I am too. And I am understanding how peoples' feelings work. And I am understanding how fragile people can be. And I am understanding what works best for the group. And I am understanding how to control my own actions (in words.)
> A lot has been said since this subject first arose. Babblers stepped up. They spoke their minds. They spoke their hearts. And new ideas have sprung up, because of the speaking to.
I have to wholeheartedly agree with a trigger flag, even though in my case that would probably be a "Click here" flag for me. The entire substance abuse board is a trigger flag for me, but I click there all the time.
> What about my idea of a radio button, that Babblers can express their feeling of being triggered by a post.....such that if enough people do so, a trigger flag is produced. The threshold value for that has to be worked out by experience. We can't pick the perfect number ahead of time. The threshold is not yet known, but with open minds, we can sort that out, too.That sounds like a good idea to me. How about just a trigger rating on each post? (ie) everything is "flagged," but just rated by the posters on a scale of 0-9? Of course initiated by the original poster and average from then on...
Mr. Nut
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 7, 2006, at 12:17:59
In reply to Re: Implementation of trigger flags » Larry Hoover, posted by curtm on June 7, 2006, at 11:32:42
> That sounds like a good idea to me. How about just a trigger rating on each post? (ie) everything is "flagged," but just rated by the posters on a scale of 0-9? Of course initiated by the original poster and average from then on...
>
> Mr. NutI'd hate to try and write the code for your implementation. My idea just needs an "if....then..." statement. If X number of babblers tick box (change value from 0 to 1), then a flag appears.
The X would need to be adaptive. We'd have to learn about what is a reasonable number. Lurkers would have the opportunity to express themselves, something they may not tend to do right now. Different boards might have different X values. The Psycho board is different than the Social board, IMHO, both in content and in traffic.
Lar
Posted by corafree on June 7, 2006, at 20:41:20
In reply to Re: Implementation of trigger flags » corafree, posted by gardenergirl on June 6, 2006, at 16:00:08
Thanks for explanation re: discussing a situation v. painting a picture of it. I understand.
No ... I'm not upset, not for myself, because Larry's reaction and posts by him and others actually 'shook me out of my numbness' and that was GOOD for me, I think.(?)
But, I am upset that it was at others' expense, and THAT'S NOT FAIR.
If only I had a therapist that effective!
It made me see the validity of my pain. I do not have a validating support system.
So, 'violence in general' would then be flagged?
I don't think that is something we can do now. I'm looking at my keyboard and thinking, 'can I make a flag icon'?
I was wondering if there would be any way to be a TRIGGER 'specific'? (There are different forms of violence.) Does anyone think that would be valuable? Probably not.
Do we avoid? Should we? This feels similar to DBT. I am not sure that I wouldn't actually be 'drawn to posts if they were flagged'. Having been in violent situations too long ... maybe 'it's there that I'm comfortable'. That is sick.
Really, ... I am hitting this head-on now for the first time. When I saw TRIGGER typed four times it really took me aback. I realized at that moment ... I haven't ever allowed myself to experience the pain that I was talking about. Suddenly I saw it and felt it, and I think that's progress. I've been avoiding my feelings a long time.
Where do I we draw the line?
agreebutconfused,cf
Posted by corafree on June 7, 2006, at 20:53:01
In reply to Re: Implementation of trigger flags » curtm, posted by Larry Hoover on June 7, 2006, at 12:17:59
>The Psycho board is different than the Social >board, IMHO, both in content and in traffic.
>Lar
My understanding was that the psycho board is the med board.
I feel like I'm going to say something I don't want to say.
love,cf
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 7, 2006, at 22:57:52
In reply to Re: Implementation of trigger flags » Larry Hoover, posted by corafree on June 7, 2006, at 20:53:01
> >The Psycho board is different than the Social >board, IMHO, both in content and in traffic.
>
> >Lar
>
> My understanding was that the psycho board is the med board.Sorry, my bad. Historically, the psychology board was called psycho-psycho-babble. It isn't any more.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 7, 2006, at 23:01:06
In reply to Re: Implementation of trigger flags » gardenergirl, posted by corafree on June 7, 2006, at 20:41:20
> When I saw TRIGGER typed four times it really took me aback.
I didn't even realize I did that, at first. Maybe I was counting, before I broke away?
More, tomorrow. Time for sleep now.
Lar
Posted by corafree on June 8, 2006, at 22:22:07
In reply to Re: Implementation of trigger flags » corafree, posted by Larry Hoover on June 7, 2006, at 23:01:06
Think we were suppose to learn 'counting' in DBT. It would be a distraction technique. Or, maybe I just made that one up as I often was distracted by trying to be distracted.
beammeupbob,cf
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 9, 2006, at 3:18:16
In reply to Re: Implementation of trigger flags » corafree, posted by gardenergirl on June 6, 2006, at 16:00:08
> All Bob needs to do is to enable a function that allows:
> 1. any person to flag their own post
> 2. others to flag posts that got overlooked
>
> The 2nd one could work either of two ways. A deputy could go and add a missing flag. Or, if a threshold number of people click on some notification button of some sort, a flag could be added to the post.
>
> I think Babblers can manage this without any need for administrative sanction, except in the most extraordinary circumstances.
>
> Lar> I agree it's not always easy to know what might be triggering. But I do think that any graphic or detailed account of upsetting things such as violence, suicide, self-harm, abuse, etc. might be more likely to trigger someone, and thus, might be a good rule of thumb for now.
>
> ggWe're making progress! Should we go with the above rule of thumb for now?
(1) is certainly necessary. (2) is more complicated. How about starting with:
2a. someone else posts to the thread, flags their own post, and adds "^ 2" or something like that to their subject line to indicate that the flag is actually for the post that's 2 up
Then later:
2b. anyone could flag the post directly, but only deputies could unflag (and reflag) it
Bob
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 9, 2006, at 8:48:42
In reply to Re: Implementation of trigger flags, posted by Dr. Bob on June 9, 2006, at 3:18:16
> > All Bob needs to do is to enable a function that allows:
> > 1. any person to flag their own post
> > 2. others to flag posts that got overlooked
> >
> > The 2nd one could work either of two ways. A deputy could go and add a missing flag. Or, if a threshold number of people click on some notification button of some sort, a flag could be added to the post.
> >
> > I think Babblers can manage this without any need for administrative sanction, except in the most extraordinary circumstances.
> >
> > Lar
>
> > I agree it's not always easy to know what might be triggering. But I do think that any graphic or detailed account of upsetting things such as violence, suicide, self-harm, abuse, etc. might be more likely to trigger someone, and thus, might be a good rule of thumb for now.
> >
> > gg
>
> We're making progress! Should we go with the above rule of thumb for now?
>
> (1) is certainly necessary. (2) is more complicated. How about starting with:
>
> 2a. someone else posts to the thread, flags their own post, and adds "^ 2" or something like that to their subject line to indicate that the flag is actually for the post that's 2 up
>
> Then later:
>
> 2b. anyone could flag the post directly, but only deputies could unflag (and reflag) it
>
> BobGood to see you back, Dr. Bob. Especially so when you come back with such a glorious response.
My only question is, why not 2a and 2b simultaneously? The first person to find an unflagged trigger post can certainly post a subject line warning, to serve in the time between when the post is first noticed, and when a concensus forms on whether that belief is commonly held.
I don't think there's anything there that is too complicated to implement the entire package. It could be that making gradual changes is much harder on people, Bob, because they just get finished making one change, and it's on to another one. And different posting or reading styles would have people in different belief systems, depending on how frequently they read posts or specific boards at Babble.
I can imagine this exchange:
"But I thought the new rule was......."
"No. No. That was last week. We were just doing that for a while. The new rule is that you...."Lar
Posted by MidnightBlue on June 9, 2006, at 10:57:47
In reply to Re: Implementation of trigger flags, posted by Dr. Bob on June 9, 2006, at 3:18:16
Dr. Bob,
I still like the idea of each person being asked to check a box if they think their post has a trigger in it. Just like right now we have to confirm our post before it is posted.
Ideally, a computer program would be written that could note possible trigger content. A message would pop up asking the poster if their message might be trigger material. This gives the writer time to reflect and consider the gravity of what they have written.
The poster could still check "no" if they felt the computer had picked up on something that was not trigger material. However, if you or a deputy disagrees, the decision could be overridden and a flag would be posted.
I do not think this should call for a block or other disciplinarly action unless the person repeatedly does this to try to get around the system.
I agree with the description of graphic violence, suicide threats, etc. That is a good place to start. It can always be fine tuned later.
MidnightBlue
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 9, 2006, at 11:49:43
In reply to Re: Implementation of trigger flags » Dr. Bob, posted by MidnightBlue on June 9, 2006, at 10:57:47
Lay it down.
Let's go.
Lar
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 10, 2006, at 1:29:35
In reply to Re: Implementation of trigger flags » Dr. Bob, posted by MidnightBlue on June 9, 2006, at 10:57:47
> My only question is, why not 2a and 2b simultaneously?
>
> LarBecause 2b is more complicated to implement. :-)
> Ideally, a computer program would be written that could note possible trigger content.
>
> MidnightBlueI agree, that would be ideal. But it's especially hard if the program isn't looking just for words like "suicide", but for graphic or detailed accounts...
Bob
Posted by MidnightBlue on June 10, 2006, at 10:45:06
In reply to Re: Implementation of trigger flags, posted by Dr. Bob on June 10, 2006, at 1:29:35
Dr. Bob,
Well, couldn't we start with a program that just looks for those words like suicide, etc? It might not catch everything, but it would be a big help. That is one reason why the writer should be able to over ride the program by saying it was NOT a flagable post. To help weed out false positives.
I think the whole idea here is to help the person writing the message think about what they are saying and the effect it might have on others.
MidnightBlue
> I agree, that would be ideal. But it's especially hard if the program isn't looking just for words like "suicide", but for graphic or detailed accounts...
>
> Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 11, 2006, at 19:02:22
In reply to Re: Implementation of trigger flags » Dr. Bob, posted by MidnightBlue on June 10, 2006, at 10:45:06
> Well, couldn't we start with a program that just looks for those words like suicide, etc?
We could, but if it "cries wolf" all the time, people might start ignoring it...
Bob
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