![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 13 to 37 of 37. Go back in thread:
Posted by JenStar on January 8, 2006, at 20:15:05
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, a few questions. . ., posted by alexandra_k on January 7, 2006, at 21:08:29
Alex,
I think the words 'threat' and 'promise' are both scary, and the CAT folks shouldn't have pressured you to use either of them.Maybe you could have said, "I don't know what to call it, but I'm feeling so unwell right now, and so horrible. I just have this feeling welling up in me that is pressuring me to do something awful to myself, and I don't know how to stop that feeling. I don't know if I can stop myself. I'm not making any threats, I'm just explaining this horrible feeling in me, and asking you for help to keep me here on this earth."
I hate that people put you on the spot with "is that a threat." what jerks!
JenStar
Posted by JenStar on January 8, 2006, at 20:18:21
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, a few questions. . . » alexandra_k, posted by JenStar on January 8, 2006, at 20:15:05
but about whether or not they should have called the cops...I don't know. If I were a crisis team member, my goal would be to prevent any and all suicides. If that meant sometimes calling the police, I might do it, even though that's intrusive and scary and ugly. I might err on the cautious side and call the cops when it wasn't warranted, just because I'd be so scared that if I DIDN'T, that someone might hurt themself. And I would never want that!
I wish there were an easier, gentler way to get help for people who really need it -- a midground between "go help yourself, buddy" and "I'm going to call the cops on you!" Hmmmm...
JenStar
Posted by Deneb on January 8, 2006, at 21:05:35
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, a few questions. . . » Sarah T., posted by JenStar on January 8, 2006, at 20:11:46
I *am* a real person and I don't make up stories.
You you want me to prove it?
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 9, 2006, at 1:11:42
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, a few questions. . . » Dinah, posted by Sarah T. on January 7, 2006, at 13:13:12
> For now, I'll just say that I think it depends a lot on the extent of the threats, how long they've been going on, on this board, and whether or not the person is getting help and treatment.
I agree, it depends on a lot of factors...
> I understand that if someone is new to this board and/or new to therapy, they may not know yet that there are healthier ways to cope with their feelings... But, as far as this most recent problem is concerned, that is not the case.
People can know there are healthier ways, but knowing can be one thing and doing another...
> Some Babblers "opted out," and refused to participate in those threads. Others became worried and tried to help with a "tough love" approach. Others tried to help with the "infinite patience" approach. It didn't matter. The threats escalated.
It's a good question, what the best way might be to handle these situations. Maybe I should try to say something pre-emptive about "tough love". And add something about it to the FAQ. Some sites just don't allow discussion of self-injury or suicidal ideation. IMO, it's not necessarily a bad system if some people opt out, others are patient, and there's discussion about what might be helpful for all involved.
> I feel as if I'm being toyed with. It's hard to describe, but it's a feeling of being lured or tantalized. I feel as if I'm being fooled.
You feel helpless? You may not be the only one...
Bob
Posted by Deneb on January 9, 2006, at 1:55:05
In reply to Re: a few responses. . ., posted by Dr. Bob on January 9, 2006, at 1:11:42
> > I feel as if I'm being toyed with. It's hard to describe, but it's a feeling of being lured or tantalized. I feel as if I'm being fooled.
>
> You feel helpless? You may not be the only one...
>
> Bob:-( I'm sorry Dr. Bob, if I made you feel helpless in some way.
Do you feel like you are being fooled too?
You don't believe that I'm a real person? You believe that I'm "toying" around with people? For fun?
I'm a real person. You'll see when I go to Toronto. I'm not "toying" with people or playing games, at least not on purpose. I don't know exactly why, but I get upset, then others get upset and then everything turns upside down and I and others get even more upset. I think maybe Babble is not good for me, but now I can't stop coming here.
I think there is a problem...I think maybe I see Babble as some sort of giant entity. I don't care as much as I should for individuals here. Maybe I should Babblemail more. Larry and I are having great conversations via e-mail. It's not a one sided relationship, at least I don't think so.
I hope you don't think I'm a bad person Dr. Bob.
Deneb
Posted by Dinah on January 9, 2006, at 8:22:08
In reply to Re: a few responses. . ., posted by Dr. Bob on January 9, 2006, at 1:11:42
Dr. Bob, you didn't answer my question about an admittedly technical point.
I wonder if it would make a difference had the wording been:
"You have described yourself as being..."
By the way, you must be in a *very* good mood. :)
Posted by wildcard on January 9, 2006, at 8:30:22
In reply to Re: a few responses. . . » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on January 9, 2006, at 8:22:08
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 9, 2006, at 10:03:21
In reply to Re: a few responses. . . » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on January 9, 2006, at 8:22:08
> Dr. Bob, you didn't answer my question about an admittedly technical point.
>
> I wonder if it would make a difference had the wording been:
>
> "You have described yourself as being..."Sorry, it's hard to say. I think I'd want to see the whole post...
> By the way, you must be in a *very* good mood. :)
Because I'm not as cranky as usual? :-)
Bob
Posted by AuntieMel on January 9, 2006, at 16:21:09
In reply to Re: a few responses. . ., posted by Dr. Bob on January 9, 2006, at 1:11:42
"> I feel as if I'm being toyed with. It's hard to describe, but it's a feeling of being lured or tantalized. I feel as if I'm being fooled.
You feel helpless? You may not be the only one..."
She's not the only one. Me too. In fact I've decided it's a game I don't want to play anymore.
Posted by Dinah on January 9, 2006, at 18:36:28
In reply to Re: a few responses. . ., posted by Dr. Bob on January 9, 2006, at 10:03:21
> > Dr. Bob, you didn't answer my question about an admittedly technical point.
> >
> > I wonder if it would make a difference had the wording been:
> >
> > "You have described yourself as being..."
>
> Sorry, it's hard to say. I think I'd want to see the whole post...How would that be allowable under the civility rules? We're not supposed to quote posts that you've flagged. And you haven't said that it would be ok with the other wording, so I can't substitute those words either. :) I guess it doesn't make any difference overall. I just am interested in the nuances of civility rules.
> > By the way, you must be in a *very* good mood. :)
>
> Because I'm not as cranky as usual? :-)No, I didn't mean you weren't as cranky as usual. I meant you weren't as cranky as I. :)
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 10, 2006, at 1:22:27
In reply to I *am* a real person, posted by Deneb on January 8, 2006, at 21:05:35
> I *am* a real person and I don't make up stories.
Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding being a real person to Psycho-Babble Social. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20060108/msgs/597448.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 10, 2006, at 1:25:23
In reply to Re: a few responses. . . » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on January 9, 2006, at 18:36:28
> > > I wonder if it would make a difference had the wording been:
> > >
> > > "You have described yourself as being..."
> >
> > Sorry, it's hard to say. I think I'd want to see the whole post...
>
> How would that be allowable under the civility rules? We're not supposed to quote posts that you've flagged. And you haven't said that it would be ok with the other wording, so I can't substitute those words either. :) I guess it doesn't make any difference overall. I just am interested in the nuances of civility rules.You could reword it so it's about a movie or something instead of a poster? :-) Or you could email it to me...
Bob
Posted by Dinah on January 10, 2006, at 9:32:54
In reply to Re: other wording, posted by Dr. Bob on January 10, 2006, at 1:25:23
I'll give it a shot in email.
Posted by JahL on January 14, 2006, at 22:06:41
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, a few questions. . . » Sarah T., posted by Dinah on January 7, 2006, at 10:57:57
Hi Dinah.
> Ouch.
Oww!
> As someone with self injury in my not too distant past, and continuing suicidal ideation, I've got to say that idea scares me a bit. I've always liked that we can talk about those things here, with appropriate trigger warnings. Because there aren't that many places where those things can be discussed, and they can become so *powerful* if they are unspeakable.Yes, yes and yes again. You and I know that suicidal ideation, and suicide, are merely extreme manifestations of depressive disorders. The end of the plank. You either live it or you don't. The idea that certain symptoms should not be spoken about, is...unspeakable. It'd be like telling an Angling Forum they may not discuss fish.
Drive discussion underground and people like me will inevitably migrate towards those infamous self-help suicide sites. *Not* very helpful.
There is, quite obviously, still a massive taboo surrounding the subject. This is wrong. I would wager - and I am a successful Professional Gambler by trade - that more people would like to discuss such problems, but fear moral castigation and ostracism.
As for the comment about suicide being uncivil...I don't know how to take that...except not very seriously. As I'm sure you'll agree, depression might be hard - *very* hard - on loved ones, but in of itself, it is neither a civil nor uncivil act.
It is, quite simply, an act of sheer desperation. It is, for me, the *promise* of relief. Aahhh. Noone else can give me that assurance.
Having said all of this, it should go without saying that I have to strongly disapprove of 'crying wolf'. It's easy to understand the psychology behind this behaviour but ultimately a lot of caring, but *also* 'damaged' people wind up getting hurt. It also, of course, devalues the perceived worth of 'genuine' claims.
I do not read Social and so I cannot comment on the current furore surrounding a particular poster. However, given the strong reactions of people I respect on this site, it is clear that someone might need help beyond Babble. I hope they get it. I have a rather ambivalent attitude towards Babble these days. My combative nature makes it too easy to get sucked into arguments. I have been like this - Bipolar - since age seven and do not mind admitting that over time I have become increasingly bitter, angry and resentful. Remaining civil is a constant challenge for me; I hope I have succeeded here. I have enough real-life wars on my hands - I don't need any more meaningless battles. So Babble isn't the right place for everyone.
I remember thanking Dr B. recently for permitting discussion of suicide. I shouldn't really have to, but other misguided sites forbid such talk. Though typically cryptic and coy, his response was encouraging. Top fella.
If my chosen meds do not work then I will be Catching The Bus. I will not need a second opportunity. Before I do, I will post my intentions here. Dr Bob can then hit me with a PBC, maybe even a block, for being so 'uncivil' :-P [sorry, bad taste]
Take care Dinah,
Jah.
Not interested in debating my views on the matter, people. Nothing else to say. Thanks for listenin'.
Posted by wildcard on January 14, 2006, at 22:11:46
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, a few questions. . .*big SI trigger* » Dinah, posted by JahL on January 14, 2006, at 22:06:41
Posted by JahL on January 14, 2006, at 22:29:23
In reply to You are not alone. I def. see your point! (nm) » JahL, posted by wildcard on January 14, 2006, at 22:11:46
That's at least one person I won't be arguing with. :-)
J
Posted by wildcard on January 14, 2006, at 22:32:55
In reply to Thanks! » wildcard, posted by JahL on January 14, 2006, at 22:29:23
I think for someone to understand, they need to have been or still be there. I am very lucky to be here today. Maybe I could have reached out if I had known about a place I could talk about my feelings. I didn't have that but I do now. Take care of you.
Posted by TofuEmmy on January 15, 2006, at 7:28:23
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, a few questions. . .*big SI trigger* » Dinah, posted by JahL on January 14, 2006, at 22:06:41
"If my chosen meds do not work then I will be Catching The Bus. I will not need a second opportunity. Before I do, I will post my intentions here. "
Curious. WHY would you post your intentions on Babble?
emmy
Posted by Dinah on January 15, 2006, at 17:33:56
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, a few questions. . .*big SI trigger* » Dinah, posted by JahL on January 14, 2006, at 22:06:41
Talking about the taboo topics always reduces the power of them, I think.
How are you doing? I haven't seen you much lately.
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 16, 2006, at 1:13:04
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, a few questions. . .*big SI trigger* » Dinah, posted by JahL on January 14, 2006, at 22:06:41
>Yes, yes and yes again. You and I know that suicidal ideation, and suicide, are merely extreme manifestations of depressive disorders. The end of the plank. You either live it or you don't. The idea that certain symptoms should not be spoken about, is...unspeakable. It'd be like telling an Angling Forum they may not discuss fish.
Thank you so much for posting that.
It really, well-- bothers me (bothers isn't strong enough a word)
That certain disorders, and manifestations thereof, are somehow suddenly within the posters control if they are disturbing someone else.
And if the behaviour continues.. well they're being deliberately difficult.
Posted by verne on January 16, 2006, at 8:13:39
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, a few questions. . .*big SI trigger* » Dinah, posted by JahL on January 14, 2006, at 22:06:41
I've lived with suicidal ideation most of my life and was accused of "crying wolf" many times along the way. That I'm still alive doesn't make the nightmare I've lived any less real or previous close calls on the edge any less valid.
Living with suicide isn't black-white, either-or. It's not a simple matter of either one did it and can now be taken seriously, too late, or one has merely "cried wolf" and can't be taken seriously. Most suicides give plenty of signals beforehand with attempts and gestures along the way.
I don't think suicidal threats should ever be considered "crying wolf". There's a lot of emotional pain behind it that shouldn't be dismissed even if they survive - or especially if they survive.
Verne
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 16, 2006, at 14:09:29
In reply to Crying Wolf, posted by verne on January 16, 2006, at 8:13:39
I agree with you Verne, and have had similar experiences
Now, If I take the risk of agreeing with you again, and you say "Sorry I shouldn't have said that, I was P.W.D"
I'm going to have to smack you :)
> Living with suicide isn't black-white, either-or. It's not a simple matter of either one did it and can now be taken seriously, too late, or one has merely "cried wolf" and can't be taken seriously. Most suicides give plenty of signals beforehand with attempts and gestures along the way.
>
> I don't think suicidal threats should ever be considered "crying wolf". There's a lot of emotional pain behind it that shouldn't be dismissed even if they survive - or especially if they survive.
>
> Verne
>
>
Posted by verne on January 16, 2006, at 16:57:42
In reply to Re: Crying Wolf » verne, posted by Gabbix2 on January 16, 2006, at 14:09:29
Happily and thankfully on the road again, on the wagon for the long haul. Forgot to include a horse in there somewhere. :)
While not PWD I do feel like I'm out on a limb. Sometimes I feel like I expose too much of myself and later regret it.
I can see why people may be hesitant to agree with me - they'll feel betrayed when I later turn on myself.
Verne
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 16, 2006, at 18:48:05
In reply to Not PWD » Gabbix2, posted by verne on January 16, 2006, at 16:57:42
> Happily and thankfully on the road again, on the wagon for the long haul. Forgot to include a horse in there somewhere. :)
>
Good going.
Though I find it hard to fathom that some people can exist without an addiction.
> While not PWD I do feel like I'm out on a limb. Sometimes I feel like I expose too much of myself and later regret it.
>Well, I've written to people and then said "Sorry I was drinking" Even though I don't drink. I just wanted an excuse to tell someone something personal, and then felt embarrassed.
> I can see why people may be hesitant to agree with me - they'll feel betrayed when I later turn on myself.
>
> Verne
>No, I don't feel betrayed I just laugh and go "d*mn you Verne!" Actually I really really like seeing your posts (whether they are recanted later or not) sometimes when you're here, I feel like, you know when a dog senses another dog in a crowd of people.
That wasn't the most eloquent of comparisions, but the only one I could think of.
Posted by ed_uk on January 21, 2006, at 14:18:17
In reply to Thanks! » wildcard, posted by JahL on January 14, 2006, at 22:29:23
J,
I hope you continue to visit p-babble. I have always found your posts interesting.
Regards
Ed
This is the end of the thread.
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