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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 21 to 45 of 272. Go back in thread:
Posted by wildcard on January 7, 2006, at 22:36:46
In reply to The thing about avoiding certain posts, posted by crazy teresa on January 7, 2006, at 21:09:18
Posted by Phillipa on January 7, 2006, at 23:27:53
In reply to Re: Can we work together to figure out what to do? » Dinah, posted by wildcard on January 7, 2006, at 14:46:01
Good point I agree fully. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by James K on January 8, 2006, at 18:10:21
In reply to Can we work together to figure out what to do?, posted by Dinah on January 7, 2006, at 11:27:47
I've been following this and mostly staying out, but it is on my mind a lot. Mainly because in a short time this place has become important to me, and that is being lost temporarily.
I've been looking all over the site, looking for an actual quote of this, but couldn't find one - but basically, we all know this is about people with mental illness. That means some of us are going to be in crisis, out of sorts, irrational, or just having a bad day, at any given time. I've been all of those in just two weeks time.
There has been talk of splitting social or making a fun board. I don't really like that idea. Here as in real life, someone may come along and spoil the party once in a while. My feeling is that is something to accept.
The civility standard wether enforced exactly right is the only thing that makes this board work. I've only been on the web for a few weeks, but my attempts to find other sites just turns up unmoderated trolls and spam with none of the support and friendship I see here.
Now I want to discuss the actual events that led to all this controversy. It might be tricky, but I'll try to do it without making things worse.
The social board says it is for (from memory) support, discussion, and "just having fun". It started to seem to me that deneb was confusing the three. Hourly reports of self harm thoughts and behaviors then repenting then going back. In the civil rules, joking about self-harm and suicide is uncivil. Some of that stuff felt frivolous and not serious to me.
Then we get back to my original point - some of us are in different stages of different illnesses.
The repeated posting seemed uncivil to me, and I wonder if this could have been addressed off-site, to make sure this was legitimate and not games, before we ended up with Larry blocked and anger and hurt feelings all around.
If talking about this directly like this is itself uncivil, then I will think about it and decide if I should have said it differently or not at all.
James K
Posted by wildcard on January 8, 2006, at 18:48:27
In reply to Re: Can we work together to figure out what to do? » Dinah, posted by James K on January 8, 2006, at 18:10:21
you are so right. Splitting social just seems...wrong BUT you made the main point perfectly about the every hour threads. It has been going on for a very long time and I think social isn't the place to address a situation of that magnitude...I really think it is more psychological but once again, just my opinion...And yes, Lar's block has upset many and I am glad people are speaking out. 6 weeks is absolutely IMO ridiculous!
Posted by Sarah T. on January 9, 2006, at 1:23:22
In reply to Can we work together to figure out what to do?, posted by Dinah on January 7, 2006, at 11:27:47
Hi Dinah,
For some, I think a large part of the problem stems from a fundamental misunderstanding about what Psychobabble is. Dr. Bob states very clearly that Psychobabble is for education and support, primarily education and support among peers. Dr. Bob does not function as a therapist here. No one functions as a therapist here. Even those who are therapists "in real life" are not therapists here. A few Babblers are training to be therapists, but Psychobabble is not their field work. And there are some of us who occasionally like to emulate our own therapists and maybe even "play therapist," but we are not therapists.
Most Babblers understand what is stated above. Sometimes a newcomer asks Dr. Bob a question about medication or a therapy-related question, whereupon an "old-timer" will explain Dr. Bob's role. Usually, that's all that's necessary to set the record straight. Every once in a while, however, a Babbler comes along who refuses to accept what Psychobabble is and is not, and tries to make Psychobabble what she wants it to be. She tries to turn Psychobabble into an arena for ACTING OUT her problems rather than as AN ADJUNCT TO REAL-LIVE THERAPY AND MEDICATION for WORKING THROUGH her problems.
It's almost as if she's saying, "F*** you and your rules! I'm going to turn this board into what I want, when I want. Outwardly, I will pretend to obey your stupid rules. But those rules are for others, NOT for me! So I'll appear to comply, but subtly and insidiously, I will break those rules. And I'm so clever, I'll think up ways to get around the civility guidelines. You folks are here for ME and MY NEEDS! You're not my peers. PEERS, SCHMEERS! I don't care if you struggle with life-long depression or Lupus or Lyme Disease or space-occupying lesions inside your skull or whatever! I don't care how many tragedies you've lived through in your life or in a year. I don't care how many loved ones you've lost. Your needs don't matter; mine do. I'm not going to go to a real live therapist, and I'm not going to take my medication. I'd rather act out my transference on you and Dr. Bob. I will ignore your exhortations to go to a psychiatrist and to take my meds because I am the fulcrum around which Psychobabble revolves, and eventually I will get my way."
That's how I see the problem. The problem is refusing to accept Psychobabble for what it is, and trying to turn it into something it is not. Psychobabble is NOT a substitute for real-live therapy and medication. It is not a therapy board. It is NOT a suicide hotline or crisis center. IF YOU ARE SUICIDAL OR HAVE SOME OTHER EMERGENCY, THEN GO TO THE EMERGENCY ROOM! This is NOT an emergency room, and NO ONE here is qualified and/or able to treat a suicidal patient.
I know it would probably be impossible to implement, but I believe there are a few Babblers who should not be allowed to participate here unless they are simultaneously in treatment with a psychiatrist for a long, long time. These few have been too consistently and predictably disruptive and/or have consistently flouted the rules. Again, I don't know how this could be enforced, but I think it is the only solution to this dilemma.
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 9, 2006, at 1:55:32
In reply to Re: Can we take an informal poll?, posted by Dinah on January 7, 2006, at 15:44:14
> I'm disturbed that once someone has been blocked, there aren't any requests to be civil, but just further blocks. It really doesn't give someone a chance to rephrase or anything.
There can be, the last time I asked Larry to PBC was in November. And of course everyone always has a chance to rephrase -- before hitting submit...
> There is so much to be gained by actively practicing civility: don't say stuff to people that you wouldn't want them to say to you. This is not about having thin or thick hide; it's about being a social being amongst other social beings in ways that allows us to express our feelings without trodding on others'.
>
> CSI agree!
--
> Perhaps this is a time when Dr. Bob could bring in a guest expert? Someone who might be able to make alternative suggestions?
Sure, I'd be happy to ask, but an expert on what topic?
> if Grief, for example, had evolved into a board where Grief was an active topic with a group of people seeking to explore the grieving process it makes sense. But if grief is just somewhere you're redirected to if a family member or friend dies and you seek to share it with your community, then it's just isolating.
>
> DinahThis is sort of a tangent, but I have to agree, Grief is more isolating than active. Maybe it's just not going to work as a separate board...
Thanks for starting this thread, I really like the emphasis on working together to try to improve things.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 9, 2006, at 2:30:16
In reply to Re: Can we work together to figure out what to do? » Dinah, posted by Sarah T. on January 9, 2006, at 1:23:22
> It's almost as if she's saying, "F*** you and your rules! I'm going to turn this board into what I want, when I want...
Please don't exaggerate, jump to conclusions, or post anything that could lead others to feel put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil. Thanks.
> Psychobabble is NOT a substitute for real-live therapy and medication. It is not a therapy board. It is NOT a suicide hotline or crisis center. IF YOU ARE SUICIDAL OR HAVE SOME OTHER EMERGENCY, THEN GO TO THE EMERGENCY ROOM! This is NOT an emergency room, and NO ONE here is qualified and/or able to treat a suicidal patient.
This is another tangent, but I've wondered before about people here being able to notify someone in "real" life:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20050219/msgs/466899.html
Bob
Posted by Dinah on January 9, 2006, at 8:29:29
In reply to Re: suicidal posters + please be civil » Sarah T., posted by Dr. Bob on January 9, 2006, at 2:30:16
There have been times when various posters, myself included, have expressed the concern that Babble might not be healthy for them at a given point of time. In my case, I brought it to my therapist and he did indeed at least once put me on Babble restriction.
I suppose it's impossible to come up with a way to ensure that posters in that situation are asked to clear Babbling with a mental health provider? Sort of like what happens with sports?
Just an idea. I was glad to have someone available to guage (sp?) how ready I was to participate.
Posted by AuntieMel on January 9, 2006, at 9:03:19
In reply to Re: suicidal posters » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on January 9, 2006, at 8:29:29
What to do when one topic keeps coming up over and over and over that *many* posters don't want to be part of.
And what if that topic becomes so prevalent on a board that it is hard to find any posts that you do want to be involved in.
To be honest, I wish more people would do what I do (in accordance with the civility rules) and that is:
Just ignore it and hope it goes away.
But - would someone please tell me when it's gone away so I can go back to social?
Posted by wildcard on January 9, 2006, at 9:09:42
In reply to Re: Yes. but what to do when » Dinah, posted by AuntieMel on January 9, 2006, at 9:03:19
Posted by Dinah on January 9, 2006, at 9:13:58
In reply to Re: Yes. but what to do when » Dinah, posted by AuntieMel on January 9, 2006, at 9:03:19
That happens to me on various boards with various topics.
I either just limit my participation, or try to start discussions on different topics.
Posted by Dinah on January 9, 2006, at 9:16:40
In reply to Re: Yes. but what to do when » Dinah, posted by AuntieMel on January 9, 2006, at 9:03:19
And of course, vent off board with my civility buddy or other like minded posters. :) Or my husband, but he gets bored.
Posted by Dinah on January 9, 2006, at 9:57:11
In reply to Re: Can we work together to figure out what to do?, posted by Dr. Bob on January 9, 2006, at 1:55:32
> > Perhaps this is a time when Dr. Bob could bring in a guest expert? Someone who might be able to make alternative suggestions?
>
> Sure, I'd be happy to ask, but an expert on what topic?Well, since the topic would tend to be human behavior, I suppose you could answer the question if you chose to.
Currently you've suggested one strategy to the board. Not reading posts, and not responding if you don't believe you can do so civilly. I'm suggesting that that strategy falls short in certain circumstances where it may actually contribute to escalation. Tension on the board increases, and then there's a forest fire in your terms.
I'm asking for suggestions for extra strategies in the board's toolkit. Because it happens often enough (and with different posters, so I'm not being specific) that other strategies would be worthwhile. So I'll put the question to you. Do you know of any other ways to prevent these forest fires?
Posted by wildcard on January 9, 2006, at 10:01:26
In reply to Re: Can we work together to figure out what to do? » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on January 9, 2006, at 9:57:11
That wording describes the situation perfect! Great analogy...
Posted by muffled on January 9, 2006, at 23:06:19
In reply to Re: Can we work together to figure out what to do? » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on January 9, 2006, at 9:57:11
I'm not too clever, but could there be a civility rule about a poster who is being uncivil in that he/she's getting others all riled up?
Also a HUGE problem for me is the seemingly limited use of pbc's generally and a big reliance on outright blocks.
And they can arrive so shockingly, with no chnace to explain oneself, or to even realize your own self, that you need to back off and chill awhile. In the heat of the moment its too easy to just hit the post buttons without rereading your post. Wrong perhaps, but human.
I also have a HUGE problem with the seeming arbitrary LENGHTH of blocks. Blocks don't always seem to fit the crime.
I'm ALSO dismayed that so many of us in this community are expressing dismay at the lengh or existance of a particular persons block, BUT TO NO AVAIL?!!? We don't own the website , but are WE not the community? Dr. Bob is just an overseer to keep things running I thot. Do we have no say?
I'm a little dissappointed really about that last thing.
I am very impressed however with how well people have dealt with this thing.
Babblers are great people. Just wish it weren't so harsh here.
Dunno if I made sense.
Muffled
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 10, 2006, at 2:08:01
In reply to Re: Can we work together to figure out what to do? » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on January 9, 2006, at 9:57:11
> There have been times when various posters, myself included, have expressed the concern that Babble might not be healthy for them at a given point of time. In my case, I brought it to my therapist and he did indeed at least once put me on Babble restriction.
>
> I suppose it's impossible to come up with a way to ensure that posters in that situation are asked to clear Babbling with a mental health provider? Sort of like what happens with sports?I think it's great if a poster and their therapist can work together like that. I suppose it might be possible to make it required, but it could be a can of worms, too. With sports, doesn't everyone have to be cleared?
> > Sure, I'd be happy to ask, but an expert on what topic?
>
> I'm asking for suggestions for extra strategies in the board's toolkit. Because it happens often enough (and with different posters, so I'm not being specific) that other strategies would be worthwhile.To resolve conflict in online groups? I could ask Kali Munro again. Or John Grohol? I think he has a different toolkit...
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 10, 2006, at 2:08:09
In reply to Re: Can we work together to figure out what to do? » Dinah, posted by muffled on January 9, 2006, at 23:06:19
> I'm ALSO dismayed that so many of us in this community are expressing dismay at the lengh or existance of a particular persons block, BUT TO NO AVAIL?!!? We don't own the website , but are WE not the community?
I see it as a kind of hybrid community right now. I'd like to try making it more democratic, but change is slow. But it turns out there is one way right now that posters can have more of a say:
Would anyone like to volunteer to join the current deputy administrators? Maybe this isn't a good time to ask. Or maybe it is... Anyway, feel free to reply here or by email.
Speaking of more democratic, I'm thinking about having an election this time. But how exactly to do it would still need to be worked out.
Bob
Posted by crazy teresa on January 10, 2006, at 7:19:49
In reply to Re: are WE not the community?, posted by Dr. Bob on January 10, 2006, at 2:08:09
Posted by wildcard on January 10, 2006, at 8:42:06
In reply to Re: are WE not the community?, posted by Dr. Bob on January 10, 2006, at 2:08:09
Change is slow but you have to start somewhere right? I think the community has cast a vote and as a start this block for 6 weeks (Dr.Bob, that's really extreme~did you read the entire thread?)could and IMO should be lessened/dropped b/c this block has hurt more than it has helped in any way. By Lar saying "make me sick" he stated right after that he was not well and even after speaking w/ him and several others, he meant physically although it could have been mistrewed. Physical as in symptoms that one may have when mentally/physically exhausted and under extreme stress. Once again, yes change is slow BUT gotta start somewhere and I feel that this would affect the community in a positive way if that start could be now. I think we have a petition so why wait?
Posted by Dinah on January 10, 2006, at 9:35:34
In reply to Re: Can we work together to figure out what to do?, posted by Dr. Bob on January 10, 2006, at 2:08:01
Actually, I talked to my therapist about it, but I'm not sure how to word his response.
I might run that by you in email too.
But yeah, if you think Kali Munro would come by, that would be great. But it's a bit difficult civility-wise I grant you. People would have to be pretty careful.
Posted by Tabitha on January 10, 2006, at 10:47:35
In reply to Re: Can we work together to figure out what to do?, posted by Dr. Bob on January 10, 2006, at 2:08:01
> Or John Grohol? I think he has a different toolkit...
>
> BobNow that would be really interesting! I'd love to see it. Maybe it would help 'bury the hatchet' between the two communities as well as offering new ideas.
Posted by pseudoname on January 10, 2006, at 11:23:55
In reply to Re: John Grohol as guest expert, posted by Tabitha on January 10, 2006, at 10:47:35
> Re: John Grohol as guest expert
> Maybe it would help 'bury the hatchet' between the two communities […]Can you explain this a little? I know that Grohol, a psychologist, criticized several of Dr Bob's actions related to Babble. And I think that Bob left the ISMHO (which Bob co-founded) around that time — but I'm not sure of the connection.
Tabitha, I'd be grateful to understand a little more. What “two communities” do you mean? Thanks.
Posted by pseudoname on January 10, 2006, at 11:43:50
In reply to Re: Can we work together to figure out what to do? » Dinah, posted by James K on January 8, 2006, at 18:10:21
James K had a good idea
> The repeated posting seemed uncivil to me, and I wonder if this could have been addressed off-site
What if deputy administrators could administer a back-channel (Babble-mail) warning and a private MINI-BLOCK for just a few hours, right when the situation was heating up?
The private warning could be, "This thread seems to be heating up. Perhaps everyone could benefit by taking a breather for a short time."
Also, the DA could privately block the two parties for, say, 8 hours, with no public humiliation.
If it were technically possible (I know Bob likes to write code <wink>), maybe that thread could also be frozen to everyone else for several hours, also?
But even if we just had mini-blocks as preventive measures, that would be something deputy administrators could easily do. The blocked people might resent it ("We didn't do anything wrong!"), but there'd be a lot less controversy than letting things escalate to where serious violations and blocks occur.
Just one more idea.
Posted by Tabitha on January 10, 2006, at 11:44:57
In reply to Grohol’s “hatchet”? » Tabitha, posted by pseudoname on January 10, 2006, at 11:23:55
I didn't mean to say any particular person was holding a 'hatchet'.
Dr. Grohol runs the PsychCentral boards, which cover some similar topics as Babble, but have some different admin policies and methods. There's been some discussion of the differences, which has at times felt like a bit of rivalry to me. But some folks are quite comfortable in both groups.
Posted by pseudoname on January 10, 2006, at 11:48:03
In reply to Re: “hatchet”? » pseudoname, posted by Tabitha on January 10, 2006, at 11:44:57
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