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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 57. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Racer on July 14, 2005, at 17:39:39
Dear Babblers,
I haven't been very good at keeping the lid on what I've written today. I have let my immediate and emotional reactions lead to me hitting the SEND button shortly before what I've written actually sinks into my understanding...
I would like to take this opportunity to apologize to the Babble Community as a whole for any disruption my posts may cause, and for any upset that might result from them. It really wasn't my intention to fan the fires, nor to hurt anyone's feelings. I am sorry. Next time, I will try harder to think before I submit, and to count to ten -- or ten thousand, if necessary -- before posting.
Thank you for your understanding. I thought I'd express all this before I got blocked.
Posted by pinkeye on July 14, 2005, at 18:04:25
In reply to Apology to the board, posted by Racer on July 14, 2005, at 17:39:39
Personally, I don't think what you wrote needs an apology.
Rules of civility, as any other rules, needs to be evaluated in the context. In cases, when the other party is extremely offending, it is hard to expect everyone else to be extremely nice and polite in their responses back and to block others for responding in a not-so-polite manner to the poster who offends in the first place. There needs to be a difference between initiating aggression and uncivility and responding to someone else's extreme uncivility in a not-so-polite manner. The latter goes under defense and not offense, and even courts don't punish defensive strategies much.
Posted by Dinah on July 14, 2005, at 18:22:13
In reply to Re: Apology to the board » Racer, posted by pinkeye on July 14, 2005, at 18:04:25
> Personally, I don't think what you wrote needs an apology.
>
> Rules of civility, as any other rules, needs to be evaluated in the context. In cases, when the other party is extremely offending...Dinah here, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob.
I'm sorry, Pinkeye, but at Babble, if not in the courts, the guidelines state that you are expected to respond in accordance with the civility guidelines even when your feelings are hurt, or you're upset.
If you have any questions about the civility rules of this site, here's a link.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Posted by Jen Star on July 14, 2005, at 18:24:20
In reply to Apology to the board, posted by Racer on July 14, 2005, at 17:39:39
Racer,
I totally can identify with what you said...writing before thinking it through. I've done that myself in the past! :(But still, even if the words weren't civil enough, I agree with the spirit behind your post, with the guts of it. You addressed something that has been disturbing me for quite a while, too.
I hope you don't get blocked!
Take care,
JenStar
Posted by pinkeye on July 14, 2005, at 18:35:37
In reply to Please be civil » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on July 14, 2005, at 18:22:13
> > Personally, I don't think what you wrote needs an apology.
> >
> > Rules of civility, as any other rules, needs to be evaluated in the context. In cases, when the other party is extremely offending...
>
> Dinah here, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob.
>
> I'm sorry, Pinkeye, but at Babble, if not in the courts, the guidelines state that you are expected to respond in accordance with the civility guidelines even when your feelings are hurt, or you're upset.
>
> If you have any questions about the civility rules of this site, here's a link.
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
>Hi Dinah,
Sorry I don't get why you gave me a PBC.
Don't I get to atleast say if a post is extremely offending and uncivil and especially considering that involving NAZI?? Anyone in the whole wide world will react vehemently to such a comment and I don't consider saying it is uncivil and offending is considered as uncivility in itself. I didn't accuse anyone - I just said I felt it was offending to me. Is that considered uncivil?? Why so??
Posted by Dinah on July 14, 2005, at 20:19:37
In reply to Can't I say what I consider uncivil and offending? » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on July 14, 2005, at 18:35:37
> ...I don't consider saying it is uncivil and offending is considered as uncivility in itself...
You are allowed to state your own feelings about a post, but not to characterize posts in a negative way.
With that in mind, could I ask you to rephrase your statement above?
Saying "I felt offended when I read that post" is fine. Saying that a post is offensive is not fine under the civility guidelines.
You might want to read the civility guidelines first, or if you have any questions, babblemail them to me.
Dinah, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
Posted by pinkeye on July 14, 2005, at 20:28:22
In reply to No, I'm afraid you can't » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on July 14, 2005, at 20:19:37
> You are allowed to state your own feelings about a post, but not to characterize posts in a negative way.
Ok. I see what you are saying, but still, I feel it is like asking everyone to be a Gandhi and not react to anyone and it might just not be possible for everyone. In the end, it lets an offensive poster get by (by choosing words little more carefully to fall under civility guidelines but with actual intention of hurting), but it ends up punishing people who mean well and want to be polite, but just because of some slight reaction on their end - (not with reference to the current situation, but as a general observation that I have made).
Posted by Racer on July 14, 2005, at 22:19:27
In reply to Re: No, I'm afraid you can't » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on July 14, 2005, at 20:28:22
Much as it pains me to say -- especially since I lost my cool earlier -- I think those guidelines are good, both for the community as a whole, because if we all abided by those rules all the time, this would be a very gentle, peaceful place; and for the individuals here, because it gives us a fairly safe place to practice patience and tolerance and self-control.
By the way, I felt better when I read your first post in this thread -- I don't want you to feel as though your intentions were lost, just because I agree with the civility guidelines that say you shouldn't have posted it.
{sigh}
Life can be complicated, can't it?
Peace.
Posted by Nikkit2 on July 15, 2005, at 5:47:36
In reply to Apology to the board, posted by Racer on July 14, 2005, at 17:39:39
Please don't apologise.
You are speaking for more than youself here. You are certainly speaking for me.
I felt SO hurt and sick when I posted my pain about last Thursdays bombings, and it got compared to *that*..
THAT is why I posted that I didn't mean to post it.
I don't want to come to this board any more, and its all because of the accusations and comparisons being thrown around by one single poster.
Nikki
Posted by Nikkit2 on July 15, 2005, at 5:52:12
In reply to Re: Apology to the board » Racer, posted by pinkeye on July 14, 2005, at 18:04:25
remember, its OK to accuse someone of being an AntiSemite, but its NOT Ok to say you're offended and hurt to be called that.
I, seriously and honestly believe that Lou Pilder has some kind of hold over Dr Bob.. his previous threats of legal action must have worked it seems.
I'm fed up, utterly and totally with this. Something needs to be done once and for all.
Lou doesn't believe he does anyone harm - maybe I should get a copy of my medical notes for him.
Nikki
Posted by SLS on July 15, 2005, at 6:29:11
In reply to Re: Apology to the board » pinkeye, posted by Nikkit2 on July 15, 2005, at 5:52:12
> remember, its OK to accuse someone of being an AntiSemite, but its NOT Ok to say you're offended and hurt to be called that.
>
> I, seriously and honestly believe that Lou Pilder has some kind of hold over Dr Bob.. his previous threats of legal action must have worked it seems.
>
> I'm fed up, utterly and totally with this. Something needs to be done once and for all.
>
> Lou doesn't believe he does anyone harm - maybe I should get a copy of my medical notes for him.
>
> Nikki
Can someone please post the links that you find upsetting. I don't have the energy to read the entire board looking for them, and I would like to see them in order to form an opinion.Thanks.
- Scott
Posted by Nikkit2 on July 15, 2005, at 7:36:10
In reply to Re: Apology to the board, posted by SLS on July 15, 2005, at 6:29:11
Scott,
Personally, I am talking of a number of posts over a number of years.
But there has been one quite recently.. I'll try and grab the time to find it, but work is hectic as a very hectic thing and I'm just grabbing two minutes here and there between jobs..
Nikki x
Posted by Nikkit2 on July 15, 2005, at 7:38:48
In reply to Re: Apology to the board, posted by SLS on July 15, 2005, at 6:29:11
I *think* this is the thread..
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20050530/msgs/511513.html
Posted by so on July 15, 2005, at 13:34:54
In reply to Re: Apology to the board » Racer, posted by pinkeye on July 14, 2005, at 18:04:25
dinah,
you previously wrote, in response to a request that you intervene in a matter the administrator later deemed uncivil but did not address for several days, that your involvement as a deputy here is reserved for occassions when discussion labeled uncivil is escalating.
Please explain how, in your perspective, this one response to another person's apology comprises an escalation.
Posted by gardenergirl on July 15, 2005, at 13:42:43
In reply to Please cite escalating circumstance » pinkeye, posted by so on July 15, 2005, at 13:34:54
Dinah did not intervene, as far as giving out a PBC or block in this thread. So the rule for escalation does not apply. She is able to give out information about Babble rules as either a poster or a deputy whenever the situation calls for it, as far as I understand.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on July 15, 2005, at 13:44:01
In reply to Re: Please cite escalating circumstance » so, posted by gardenergirl on July 15, 2005, at 13:42:43
disregard above please...careless skimming involved.
gg
Posted by so on July 15, 2005, at 14:04:23
In reply to Please cite escalating circumstance » pinkeye, posted by so on July 15, 2005, at 13:34:54
This was written to dinah, but was incorrectly addressed to the person she acted against.
> dinah,
>
> you previously wrote, in response to a request that you intervene in a matter the administrator later deemed uncivil but did not address for several days, that your involvement as a deputy here is reserved for occassions when discussion labeled uncivil is escalating.
>
> Please explain how, in your perspective, this one response to another person's apology comprises an escalation.
Posted by Dinah on July 15, 2005, at 16:15:28
In reply to Re: Please cite escalating circumstance dinah, posted by so on July 15, 2005, at 14:04:23
I gave out two PBC's on the same subject, on two related threads. There were at least three posts involved.
That meets the escalation clause.
So if you ever see me give *two* PBC's at any one time, you know it's been met in my estimation.
I then emailed Dr. Bob to tell him what I'd done and to request a review by him, as is my custom.
Posted by so on July 15, 2005, at 18:52:07
In reply to Re: Please cite escalating circumstance dinah » so, posted by Dinah on July 15, 2005, at 16:15:28
Then your own actions comprise the circumstances you cite as "escalating"? How was it escalating when you first acted? What circumstances beside your own actions differentiate this circumstance from any other on the board about which you do not intervene?
> I gave out two PBC's on the same subject, on two related threads. There were at least three posts involved.
>
> That meets the escalation clause.
>
> So if you ever see me give *two* PBC's at any one time, you know it's been met in my estimation.
>
> I then emailed Dr. Bob to tell him what I'd done and to request a review by him, as is my custom.
Posted by Dinah on July 15, 2005, at 19:38:30
In reply to Re: Please cite escalating circumstance dinah, posted by so on July 15, 2005, at 18:52:07
No. What I mean is that if I think it is necessary to give two PBC's then I must have seen two posts which violate the civility guidelines (two related posts, I should add. While these two posts were on two different threads, the second thread was closely related to the first). Two posts which violate the civility guidelines constitute an escalating situation.
Therefore, what I was saying was, that it is not necessary to ask me why I intervened if you see two PBC's. Two PBC's means I saw two posts in violation of the civility guidelines. And that constitutes an escalating situation by definition.
If Dr. Bob disagrees, he'll tell me so. And his judgement of course prevails.
Posted by so on July 15, 2005, at 20:43:45
In reply to Re: Please cite escalating circumstance dinah » so, posted by Dinah on July 15, 2005, at 19:38:30
>Two posts which violate the civility guidelines constitute an escalating situation.
Did the first of those posts constitute an escalating situation? When you admonished that first poster, how did that situation differ from any another situation in which one person posted an isolated post you thought contravened site guidelines?
Posted by Dinah on July 15, 2005, at 23:20:40
In reply to Re: Please cite escalating circumstance dinah, posted by so on July 15, 2005, at 20:43:45
Please check the times. They are approximately three minutes apart.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 16, 2005, at 1:11:32
In reply to Re: Apology to the board » Racer, posted by Nikkit2 on July 15, 2005, at 5:47:36
> the accusations and comparisons being thrown around by one single poster.
Sorry, but please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by NikkiT2 on July 16, 2005, at 7:20:59
In reply to Re: please be civil » Nikkit2, posted by Dr. Bob on July 16, 2005, at 1:11:32
Dr Bob,
Could you explain why, in your opinion, its not uncivil to suggest someone may be an anti-semetic, or defaming people?
Nikki
Posted by Dinah on July 16, 2005, at 8:01:11
In reply to Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob, posted by NikkiT2 on July 16, 2005, at 7:20:59
> Dr Bob,
>
> Could you explain why, in your opinion, its not uncivil to suggest someone may be an anti-semetic, or defaming people?
>
> NikkiI'd like to know that myself.
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