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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 171 to 195 of 224. Go back in thread:
Posted by Jai Narayan on March 14, 2005, at 20:08:15
In reply to Re: anybody else have an opinion? » Larry Hoover, posted by Dinah on March 14, 2005, at 18:04:19
One really only needs time out for the duration of 6 weeks.
that is, for the worst offense.
in that time the person will have learned something.okay I can see that Dr. B has more work to do if the extreme offense is limited to 40 days....
but, with all this heated discussion...this topic seems to resurface often...this takes time as well.
what do you want Dr. B....
irritated posters?I must say it's very difficult to convince Dr. B of the importance of changing this rule....he really likes it this way.
I guess it works for him.has anyone ever been banned?
Posted by alexandra_k on March 15, 2005, at 1:15:43
In reply to Re: anybody else have an opinion? » Larry Hoover, posted by Dinah on March 14, 2005, at 18:04:19
> But I'm glad Dr. Bob has the ability to do what he is able to do, and I'm against taking that ability away from him.
Absolutely. But if the length of block were to be reduced he would still have the power to block people.
> I'm not actually against Dr. Bob being able to use his judgement.
Me neither.
>I may not always agree with it, but a completely arbitrary system would be worse IMHO.
Absolutely. Thats why I have tried to provide a concrete alternative. I know it isn't perfect. But I thought it might be an improvement?
> I'm not going to say any more about it. I'm sorry I said as much as I did.
I like to hear what you have to say.
Even if I disagree...
It still gets me thinking :-)
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 15, 2005, at 10:22:51
In reply to Re: anybody else have an opinion? » Larry Hoover, posted by Dinah on March 14, 2005, at 18:04:19
Dinah, sweetie, I'm not looking for you (or anyone) to agree with me, and I'm not dismissing your opinion. I honour your feelings and beliefs. I needed to say what I did, just as did you.
Lar
Posted by Toph on March 15, 2005, at 11:39:18
In reply to Re: anybody else have an opinion? » Larry Hoover, posted by Dinah on March 14, 2005, at 18:04:19
>
> But I'm glad Dr. Bob has the ability to do what he is able to do, and I'm against taking that ability away from him. Whether I think he should use it in any given situation is something different altogether.
>Probably someone has posed this before, but I'd like to see discipline completely removed from Bob's authority. I believe that members of this community would do at least as well or likely a better job of fairly sending messages to others that their conduct is inappropriate, unsupportive, condescending, whatever. Personally, I would take notice and heed more a jury of my peers than an impassionate arbitor who frequently disregards mitigating circumstances. Bob could act as the prosecutor who presents his argument to the tribunal for consideration. This way he too could learn something about fairness and group dynamics. I'm not sure how the justices would be selected or replaced, but I'm sure most would take the responsibility seriously. This community needs to have more of a say in formulating its norms of conduct. I would feel put down if Bob or others felt that we are incapable of doing this effectively ourselves. I suppose there's a risk that a mob mentality could develop like public lynchings, or a risk of inconsistency or leniency that fosters not qwells incivility, but I highly doubt it. I'm tired of watching the capricious beheadings in the Tower. If Bob didn't like how the citizens here governed themselves, he could always grab the scepter and put the crown back on his head.
Toph
Posted by AuntieMel on March 15, 2005, at 12:10:28
In reply to Re: my opinion » Dinah, posted by Toph on March 15, 2005, at 11:39:18
I disagree on this one. Putting it in the hands of the posters could create an atmosphere of advirsity.
And I've seen cases where one person felt hurt by something a person said, and that person's opinion colored others.
Many, many times a post can be taken more than one way. If you read it knowing someone else read it one way you might be influenced by that knowledge.
It's happened to me. Later when I shook out come cobwebs and re-read the post I could see where it could easily be read differently.
Posted by Toph on March 15, 2005, at 12:38:03
In reply to Re: my opinion » Toph, posted by AuntieMel on March 15, 2005, at 12:10:28
> I disagree on this one. Putting it in the hands of the posters could create an atmosphere of advirsity.
>
I think that's very sad if that is true, Mel. I can't believe that were can't find 12 people here with as good judgement as Bob.
Posted by Dinah on March 15, 2005, at 12:51:18
In reply to Re: my opinion » AuntieMel, posted by Toph on March 15, 2005, at 12:38:03
It's not a matter of judgement so far as it is one of obectivity. That's why Dr. Bob won't come and play with us.
(Drat it. I want Dr. Bob to come and play with us.)
Posted by Toph on March 15, 2005, at 15:51:35
In reply to Re: my opinion » Toph, posted by Dinah on March 15, 2005, at 12:51:18
> It's not a matter of judgement so far as it is one of obectivity. That's why Dr. Bob won't come and play with us.
>Members of juries play in society with the accused.
Posted by AuntieMel on March 15, 2005, at 17:02:12
In reply to Re: my opinion, posted by Toph on March 15, 2005, at 15:51:35
But not the same members of society. That is why they always ask you if you know the accused.
Posted by Toph on March 15, 2005, at 18:03:01
In reply to Re: my opinion » Toph, posted by AuntieMel on March 15, 2005, at 17:02:12
> But not the same members of society. That is why they always ask you if you know the accused.
Doesn't Bob know the accused? Bottom line, I'd trust my fate with you and Dinah over Bob any day.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 15, 2005, at 22:19:02
In reply to Re: my opinion » Dinah, posted by Toph on March 15, 2005, at 11:39:18
> This community needs to have more of a say in formulating its norms of conduct... I suppose there's a risk that a mob mentality could develop like public lynchings, or a risk of inconsistency or leniency that fosters not qwells incivility, but I highly doubt it. I'm tired of watching the capricious beheadings in the Tower. If Bob didn't like how the citizens here governed themselves, he could always grab the scepter and put the crown back on his head.
I've asked about a more democratic structure before, for example, see:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20041109/msgs/425076.html
I think we're going in that direction, but (1) it's unclear what form that structure should take and (2) change is slow.
Meanwhile, this might be a good time to ask again if anyone would like to volunteer to be a deputy administrator?
Bob
Posted by alexandra_k on March 16, 2005, at 0:07:02
In reply to Re: a more democratic structure?, posted by Dr. Bob on March 15, 2005, at 22:19:02
> I've asked about a more democratic structure before
Yup. And the upshot seemed to be that people didn't like the idea.
People didn't want a radical overhaul of the current system.
> (1) it's unclear what form that structure should take and (2) change is slow.
I suggested a modified structure and your only comment was that we should agree to disagree. It is a fairly minor change compared to a complete overhaul of the civility rules / consequences. I can't help seeing you suggesting a completely different structure as a way of side-tracking what has been discussed so far.
Moving away from consensus and back to controversy so that people will fight for a bit and then be sick of the whole topic - and nothing will be done.
> Meanwhile, this might be a good time to ask again if anyone would like to volunteer to be a deputy administrator?
Please don't ask for volounteers if you only have certain people in mind.
It is exceptionally hurtful for someone to offer and for you to ignore them...
Posted by alexandra_k on March 16, 2005, at 0:14:01
In reply to Re: a more democratic structure? » Dr. Bob, posted by alexandra_k on March 16, 2005, at 0:07:02
You did make it clear that you didn't like the idea. So what did I expect?
Never mind.
Posted by Dinah on March 16, 2005, at 8:11:54
In reply to Re: a more democratic structure?, posted by Dr. Bob on March 15, 2005, at 22:19:02
My recollection was that no one had any problem iwth the button idea, as long as it wasn't made public who "tattled"?
You initially objected to that, then agreed that yes, people did contact you off board already (including deputies) in the interests of keeping board conflict minimal.
Why did you think the idea was met with negativity?
(p.s. There are problems with pure democracies. Didn't we de-facto consider you our representative in a representative democracy by choosing to post here?)
Posted by AuntieMel on March 16, 2005, at 8:27:40
In reply to Re: a more democratic structure?, posted by Dr. Bob on March 15, 2005, at 22:19:02
Adding a button could be a good idea if it was an *additional* tool. I might have a problem with it if it is used instead of cruising the boards.
The way it is now you get to 'know' the people better than if you only looked at posts that were pointed out to you. While at times some of the rulings seem unfair, at least now you have a chance of being able to tell if someone is just having a bad day.
And there is also the danger of crying wolf syndrome.
Posted by Dinah on March 16, 2005, at 8:41:04
In reply to Re: my opinion » Dinah, posted by Toph on March 15, 2005, at 11:39:18
Don't underestimate the role the community plays now in setting "societal" norms. But I wouldn't want that role to spill over into discipline. We wouldn't want a society where violation of the norms was confused with an offense.
Posted by Dinah on March 16, 2005, at 8:43:07
In reply to Re: {{{{{{Dinah}}}}}} » Dinah, posted by Larry Hoover on March 15, 2005, at 10:22:51
I know, Lar. I just wanted to take an additional opportunity to point out that there are cases, and yours was one, IMHO, where a lengthy block was not in the best interests of the community - despite my desire to keep lengthy blocks in the toolbox at Dr. Bob's disposal.
Which is why I also call for judicial use of lengthy blocks.
Posted by Toph on March 16, 2005, at 10:13:34
In reply to Re: my opinion » Toph, posted by Dinah on March 16, 2005, at 8:41:04
> Don't underestimate the role the community plays now in setting "societal" norms. But I wouldn't want that role to spill over into discipline. We wouldn't want a society where violation of the norms was confused with an offense.
True, but I wouldn't underestimate the role the community could play in discerning civil conduct and appropriate consequences on its own. I like the empowering idea in high schools and college of student disciplanry boards. Having been unfairly treated here in the past, maybe I'm speaking from a sour grapes point of view. One should always strive for the ideal, however, and, while admittedly improbable, we should strive for an autonomous, self-reliant community where there is no Bob.
Toph
Posted by AuntieMel on March 16, 2005, at 12:25:04
In reply to Re: my opinion, posted by Toph on March 16, 2005, at 10:13:34
If someone is being uncivil it is perfectly acceptable to give them a heads up about their postings.
As long as the heads up is civil.
Isn't that peer pressure at it's best?
Posted by Toph on March 16, 2005, at 12:44:47
In reply to Re: but we can do some of that now » Toph, posted by AuntieMel on March 16, 2005, at 12:25:04
> If someone is being uncivil it is perfectly acceptable to give them a heads up about their postings.
>
> As long as the heads up is civil.
>
> Isn't that peer pressure at it's best?Yes, but my experience in relaying my concerns about another's conduct usually got me in trouble.
I'm really just making an argument of principle. I have no idea how true democratic policing model could be implimented in practice.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 16, 2005, at 12:57:02
In reply to Re: but we can do some of that now, posted by Toph on March 16, 2005, at 12:44:47
Hard to be democratic when polls are considered 'divisive'...
Hard to be democratic when Dr Bob overthrows the majority and I am fairly sure that he has absolutely no intention of changing that...
Think about it Dr Bob.
Do you really want us to decide most / all things
Or do you have certain decisions in mind (ie the ones you don't really care about one way or the other)?People already can and do warn people to be civil.
People already can and do email you with their concerns.
I guess you could formalise that process if you wanted...
It isn't much different IMO.But of course it is a good idea.
Democracy = liberty freedom and justice for all
By definition so it must be true.
Who in their right mind would stand up and say
'Democracy is a bad idea - we don't want to be democratic'Only in America...
Posted by alexandra_k on March 16, 2005, at 13:25:57
In reply to Re: but we can do some of that now, posted by alexandra_k on March 16, 2005, at 12:57:02
Though of course if you formalised the procedure so that people hit a 'complain about the post' button then you wouldn't need to read the boards anymore. Just the posts that people complained about.
Or you could just set it so that if x number of complaints were received then that person got a warning or blocking or whatever.
I guess it must be kind of fun to just throw questions out there and see what people will say...
Posted by alexandra_k on March 16, 2005, at 13:31:43
In reply to Re: but we can do some of that now, posted by alexandra_k on March 16, 2005, at 13:25:57
In one of the classes I am tutoring we have a 'self marked test'. The students sit the test in the lecture. Then they are supposed to swap the test with their neighbor (ha!) and the lecturer goes through the answers and they are supposed to mark it themselves.
Of course it turns into an absolute fiasco every year.
The tests are then handed in and assigned to a proper marker. They then get properly marked. The wrong answers that were marked right are changed and vice versa.
The point of the exercise is that at the end of that process students are less likely to complain about the marking. In fact we have never had a student complain about the marking of a 'self-marked test' even though the majority of their answers are changed.
We also get a lot less complaints about marking errors as the students realise that marking is harder than it looks...
Same with determining whether someone should be warned or blocked or whatever I suppose...
It works. Why not?
Posted by AuntieMel on March 16, 2005, at 13:41:22
In reply to Re: but we can do some of that now, posted by alexandra_k on March 16, 2005, at 12:57:02
Posted by Toph on March 16, 2005, at 16:11:04
In reply to Re: are you ok alexandra? (nm) » alexandra_k, posted by AuntieMel on March 16, 2005, at 13:41:22
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