![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 165 to 189 of 224. Go back in thread:
Posted by alexandra_k on March 14, 2005, at 12:43:06
In reply to Re: anybody else have an opinion? » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on March 14, 2005, at 9:18:32
> At any rate, if posters are to be only blocked for brief periods of time, then come back for brief periods of time before being blocked again, there are going to be problems and innocents (in the sense that they are responding to rather than intitiating uncivil posts) getting admin actions and all the accompanying disturbance that comes when there's a dustup on board.
I realise that it won't be equivalent. I guess it is a matter of a trade-off between some mostly supportive posters leaving the boards because of the length of their blocks and posters putting up with a bit more incivility on the boards.
To weigh up which is more important to us...
I guess there might be a bit more work for moderators...
Posted by alexandra_k on March 14, 2005, at 12:46:44
In reply to Re: anybody else have an opinion? » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on March 14, 2005, at 9:18:32
With respect to 'innocents' getting admin action - my experience is that the only way to get admin action is to fall foul of the civility rules.
We aren't supposed to post uncivil replies to uncivil posts.
And that applies to all of us.
That being said - if someone does make an uncivil reply to an uncivil post they will only be blocked for a maximum of 4-8 weeks. Enough to make people think about it before doing that again?
If we just ignored uncivil posts / posters I really do think they would be more inclined to stop it / to go away.
It is giving some people the reaction they are looking for that encourages them.
Posted by AuntieMel on March 14, 2005, at 13:43:00
In reply to Re: Is it worth changing, posted by Dr. Bob on March 11, 2005, at 2:45:58
Well, in some cases I would say that the block is more harmful to the board than not blocking would be.
Like Chemist - who is a huge wealth of information for many, many people. Who's only infractions involve getting a bit snide with people who bait him.
The disruption is caused by others, not by him.
I owe a large part of my current condition to information I got from Chemist. Where would I be if he hadn't come back from a prior block?
Posted by Toph on March 14, 2005, at 15:24:36
In reply to Re: Is it worth changing? Yes » Gabbi-x-2, posted by alexandra_k on March 14, 2005, at 0:00:12
>
> I can think of maybe one or two posters who I feel that way about at times. But I figure that they are lessons for me in tolerance.
>
If PB strives at all to be a group therapeutic milieu, the lessons to be learned about behavioral and attitudinal norms should come primarily from other group members and not from the group facilitators. This is the primary deficiency in the group dynamic on Psycho-Babble, as I see it.Toph
Posted by mair on March 14, 2005, at 17:44:32
In reply to Re: Is it worth changing? Yes » alexandra_k, posted by Toph on March 14, 2005, at 15:24:36
I've always found the current system to be extremely disruptive. Regardless of how cut and dried Bob tries to make the civility rules seem, they are not, and they are frequently applied subjectively and arbitrarily. If they weren't, we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion.
The system of escalating penalties causes harm in a number of different ways. 1) We lose valued posters - (does everyone appreciate how lucky we are to have Larry Hoover back here? - once not a given at all) 2) People who have been at the wrong side of arbitrary blocks take it with far more sensitivity than is probably appreciated. There's a huge difference between the poster who is out to stir up trouble (we've had a fair number of those), and posters who really intend no harm. Indeed many have been blocked in their attempts to defend others. I'm sure those who believe that their blocks were unfair, don't have the same confidence that this site is "safe" in the way this site is supposed to be safe. 3) Perhaps most importantly, some of the biggest admin fights I remember arose over blocks that seemed unfair either in their imposition or, maybe as frequently, in their length. Far from generating a healthy give and take, many admin discussions over blocks have deteriorated quickly into a miasma of hurt feelings and recriminations. Many people have left here not because they were sanctioned unfairly, but rather because they felt someone else was, or even, sometimes that someone else wasn't. The appearance of unequal and uneven treatment can be extemely upsetting.
I don't think capping blocks is necessarily the answer, but I do think it would help alot. People might still feel that either they or some others were treated unfairly, but if the consequences weren't so draconian, passions might not run as high.
IMHO of course
Mair
Posted by Dinah on March 14, 2005, at 18:04:19
In reply to Re: anybody else have an opinion? » Dinah, posted by Larry Hoover on March 14, 2005, at 10:51:20
Lar, you know I agree about that (your blocks). I said so at the time. And I'll say so now.
I'm certainly not saying that you are a disruptive poster.
But I'm glad Dr. Bob has the ability to do what he is able to do, and I'm against taking that ability away from him. Whether I think he should use it in any given situation is something different altogether.
I'm not actually against Dr. Bob being able to use his judgement. I may not always agree with it, but a completely arbitrary system would be worse IMHO.
I'm not going to say any more about it. I'm sorry I said as much as I did. I think I can rely on Dr. Bob in this one.
Posted by Jai Narayan on March 14, 2005, at 20:08:15
In reply to Re: anybody else have an opinion? » Larry Hoover, posted by Dinah on March 14, 2005, at 18:04:19
One really only needs time out for the duration of 6 weeks.
that is, for the worst offense.
in that time the person will have learned something.okay I can see that Dr. B has more work to do if the extreme offense is limited to 40 days....
but, with all this heated discussion...this topic seems to resurface often...this takes time as well.
what do you want Dr. B....
irritated posters?I must say it's very difficult to convince Dr. B of the importance of changing this rule....he really likes it this way.
I guess it works for him.has anyone ever been banned?
Posted by alexandra_k on March 15, 2005, at 1:15:43
In reply to Re: anybody else have an opinion? » Larry Hoover, posted by Dinah on March 14, 2005, at 18:04:19
> But I'm glad Dr. Bob has the ability to do what he is able to do, and I'm against taking that ability away from him.
Absolutely. But if the length of block were to be reduced he would still have the power to block people.
> I'm not actually against Dr. Bob being able to use his judgement.
Me neither.
>I may not always agree with it, but a completely arbitrary system would be worse IMHO.
Absolutely. Thats why I have tried to provide a concrete alternative. I know it isn't perfect. But I thought it might be an improvement?
> I'm not going to say any more about it. I'm sorry I said as much as I did.
I like to hear what you have to say.
Even if I disagree...
It still gets me thinking :-)
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 15, 2005, at 10:22:51
In reply to Re: anybody else have an opinion? » Larry Hoover, posted by Dinah on March 14, 2005, at 18:04:19
Dinah, sweetie, I'm not looking for you (or anyone) to agree with me, and I'm not dismissing your opinion. I honour your feelings and beliefs. I needed to say what I did, just as did you.
Lar
Posted by Toph on March 15, 2005, at 11:39:18
In reply to Re: anybody else have an opinion? » Larry Hoover, posted by Dinah on March 14, 2005, at 18:04:19
>
> But I'm glad Dr. Bob has the ability to do what he is able to do, and I'm against taking that ability away from him. Whether I think he should use it in any given situation is something different altogether.
>Probably someone has posed this before, but I'd like to see discipline completely removed from Bob's authority. I believe that members of this community would do at least as well or likely a better job of fairly sending messages to others that their conduct is inappropriate, unsupportive, condescending, whatever. Personally, I would take notice and heed more a jury of my peers than an impassionate arbitor who frequently disregards mitigating circumstances. Bob could act as the prosecutor who presents his argument to the tribunal for consideration. This way he too could learn something about fairness and group dynamics. I'm not sure how the justices would be selected or replaced, but I'm sure most would take the responsibility seriously. This community needs to have more of a say in formulating its norms of conduct. I would feel put down if Bob or others felt that we are incapable of doing this effectively ourselves. I suppose there's a risk that a mob mentality could develop like public lynchings, or a risk of inconsistency or leniency that fosters not qwells incivility, but I highly doubt it. I'm tired of watching the capricious beheadings in the Tower. If Bob didn't like how the citizens here governed themselves, he could always grab the scepter and put the crown back on his head.
Toph
Posted by AuntieMel on March 15, 2005, at 12:10:28
In reply to Re: my opinion » Dinah, posted by Toph on March 15, 2005, at 11:39:18
I disagree on this one. Putting it in the hands of the posters could create an atmosphere of advirsity.
And I've seen cases where one person felt hurt by something a person said, and that person's opinion colored others.
Many, many times a post can be taken more than one way. If you read it knowing someone else read it one way you might be influenced by that knowledge.
It's happened to me. Later when I shook out come cobwebs and re-read the post I could see where it could easily be read differently.
Posted by Toph on March 15, 2005, at 12:38:03
In reply to Re: my opinion » Toph, posted by AuntieMel on March 15, 2005, at 12:10:28
> I disagree on this one. Putting it in the hands of the posters could create an atmosphere of advirsity.
>
I think that's very sad if that is true, Mel. I can't believe that were can't find 12 people here with as good judgement as Bob.
Posted by Dinah on March 15, 2005, at 12:51:18
In reply to Re: my opinion » AuntieMel, posted by Toph on March 15, 2005, at 12:38:03
It's not a matter of judgement so far as it is one of obectivity. That's why Dr. Bob won't come and play with us.
(Drat it. I want Dr. Bob to come and play with us.)
Posted by Toph on March 15, 2005, at 15:51:35
In reply to Re: my opinion » Toph, posted by Dinah on March 15, 2005, at 12:51:18
> It's not a matter of judgement so far as it is one of obectivity. That's why Dr. Bob won't come and play with us.
>Members of juries play in society with the accused.
Posted by AuntieMel on March 15, 2005, at 17:02:12
In reply to Re: my opinion, posted by Toph on March 15, 2005, at 15:51:35
But not the same members of society. That is why they always ask you if you know the accused.
Posted by Toph on March 15, 2005, at 18:03:01
In reply to Re: my opinion » Toph, posted by AuntieMel on March 15, 2005, at 17:02:12
> But not the same members of society. That is why they always ask you if you know the accused.
Doesn't Bob know the accused? Bottom line, I'd trust my fate with you and Dinah over Bob any day.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 15, 2005, at 22:19:02
In reply to Re: my opinion » Dinah, posted by Toph on March 15, 2005, at 11:39:18
> This community needs to have more of a say in formulating its norms of conduct... I suppose there's a risk that a mob mentality could develop like public lynchings, or a risk of inconsistency or leniency that fosters not qwells incivility, but I highly doubt it. I'm tired of watching the capricious beheadings in the Tower. If Bob didn't like how the citizens here governed themselves, he could always grab the scepter and put the crown back on his head.
I've asked about a more democratic structure before, for example, see:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20041109/msgs/425076.html
I think we're going in that direction, but (1) it's unclear what form that structure should take and (2) change is slow.
Meanwhile, this might be a good time to ask again if anyone would like to volunteer to be a deputy administrator?
Bob
Posted by alexandra_k on March 16, 2005, at 0:07:02
In reply to Re: a more democratic structure?, posted by Dr. Bob on March 15, 2005, at 22:19:02
> I've asked about a more democratic structure before
Yup. And the upshot seemed to be that people didn't like the idea.
People didn't want a radical overhaul of the current system.
> (1) it's unclear what form that structure should take and (2) change is slow.
I suggested a modified structure and your only comment was that we should agree to disagree. It is a fairly minor change compared to a complete overhaul of the civility rules / consequences. I can't help seeing you suggesting a completely different structure as a way of side-tracking what has been discussed so far.
Moving away from consensus and back to controversy so that people will fight for a bit and then be sick of the whole topic - and nothing will be done.
> Meanwhile, this might be a good time to ask again if anyone would like to volunteer to be a deputy administrator?
Please don't ask for volounteers if you only have certain people in mind.
It is exceptionally hurtful for someone to offer and for you to ignore them...
Posted by alexandra_k on March 16, 2005, at 0:14:01
In reply to Re: a more democratic structure? » Dr. Bob, posted by alexandra_k on March 16, 2005, at 0:07:02
You did make it clear that you didn't like the idea. So what did I expect?
Never mind.
Posted by Dinah on March 16, 2005, at 8:11:54
In reply to Re: a more democratic structure?, posted by Dr. Bob on March 15, 2005, at 22:19:02
My recollection was that no one had any problem iwth the button idea, as long as it wasn't made public who "tattled"?
You initially objected to that, then agreed that yes, people did contact you off board already (including deputies) in the interests of keeping board conflict minimal.
Why did you think the idea was met with negativity?
(p.s. There are problems with pure democracies. Didn't we de-facto consider you our representative in a representative democracy by choosing to post here?)
Posted by AuntieMel on March 16, 2005, at 8:27:40
In reply to Re: a more democratic structure?, posted by Dr. Bob on March 15, 2005, at 22:19:02
Adding a button could be a good idea if it was an *additional* tool. I might have a problem with it if it is used instead of cruising the boards.
The way it is now you get to 'know' the people better than if you only looked at posts that were pointed out to you. While at times some of the rulings seem unfair, at least now you have a chance of being able to tell if someone is just having a bad day.
And there is also the danger of crying wolf syndrome.
Posted by Dinah on March 16, 2005, at 8:41:04
In reply to Re: my opinion » Dinah, posted by Toph on March 15, 2005, at 11:39:18
Don't underestimate the role the community plays now in setting "societal" norms. But I wouldn't want that role to spill over into discipline. We wouldn't want a society where violation of the norms was confused with an offense.
Posted by Dinah on March 16, 2005, at 8:43:07
In reply to Re: {{{{{{Dinah}}}}}} » Dinah, posted by Larry Hoover on March 15, 2005, at 10:22:51
I know, Lar. I just wanted to take an additional opportunity to point out that there are cases, and yours was one, IMHO, where a lengthy block was not in the best interests of the community - despite my desire to keep lengthy blocks in the toolbox at Dr. Bob's disposal.
Which is why I also call for judicial use of lengthy blocks.
Posted by Toph on March 16, 2005, at 10:13:34
In reply to Re: my opinion » Toph, posted by Dinah on March 16, 2005, at 8:41:04
> Don't underestimate the role the community plays now in setting "societal" norms. But I wouldn't want that role to spill over into discipline. We wouldn't want a society where violation of the norms was confused with an offense.
True, but I wouldn't underestimate the role the community could play in discerning civil conduct and appropriate consequences on its own. I like the empowering idea in high schools and college of student disciplanry boards. Having been unfairly treated here in the past, maybe I'm speaking from a sour grapes point of view. One should always strive for the ideal, however, and, while admittedly improbable, we should strive for an autonomous, self-reliant community where there is no Bob.
Toph
Posted by AuntieMel on March 16, 2005, at 12:25:04
In reply to Re: my opinion, posted by Toph on March 16, 2005, at 10:13:34
If someone is being uncivil it is perfectly acceptable to give them a heads up about their postings.
As long as the heads up is civil.
Isn't that peer pressure at it's best?
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Administration | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.