![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 39 to 63 of 102. Go back in thread:
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 26, 2004, at 21:25:17
In reply to Guest expert, posted by gardenergirl on October 26, 2004, at 20:55:43
gg,
You wrote,[...I would preferr that any guest expert...].
I would not want to invite a guest expert ot comment on any single post, but to answer questions from the group like you stated. I feel that that could facilitate an understanding about what you meant by (...potential to...). I would not suggest an expert here without my first going over with the expert concerns like yours, for I also agree with you. BUt others could also invite their own expert, with approval form Dr. Hsiung. I would need approval also for my inviteee.
But I think that restrictions to a guest be different than restrictions to posters.
Lou
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 27, 2004, at 5:47:50
In reply to Re: guest experts, posted by NikkiT2 on October 26, 2004, at 10:44:16
> how can I ask someone not to post to me, when I am unable to post to them??
Just ask them, I guess that needs to be an exception.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 27, 2004, at 5:47:58
In reply to Lou's requests about antismitism- guest, posted by Lou Pilder on October 26, 2004, at 11:26:58
> I don't believe my comment really needs an expert to explain anything to me.
>
> NikkiI was thinking the discussion would be more general than that! Sorry about not being more clear.
> One thing that I would like an expert to explaine her in relation to antisemitism is that modersn antisemitism is different from proto-nazi antisemitism.
>
> Lou PilderI'd like further discussion about a guest expert at Faith to be redirected there, thanks.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 27, 2004, at 5:48:05
In reply to Re: Lou's response to pegasus » Lou Pilder, posted by pegasus on October 26, 2004, at 16:36:20
> OK, so then, you are saying that you pointed out the original post that you wanted reviewed because you wanted to know whether the language used was acceptable. And you also wanted to know whether it was ok to mention specific ways of killing oneself, as that post did.
>
> And as far as I can see, Dr. Bob never did make an assessment of those issues.Sorry about not following up here. I thought the post was OK.
Bob
Posted by AuntieMel on October 27, 2004, at 14:16:27
In reply to Re: Trying to get some clarity, posted by Noa on October 26, 2004, at 18:50:42
I could get my MIL to do it. She was very, very active in ADL.
BUT - the civility guidelines would have to be waived for her.
Posted by Crazy_Charlie on November 3, 2004, at 16:18:41
In reply to Re: guest expert :) » Noa, posted by AuntieMel on October 27, 2004, at 14:16:27
I read the site that there were complaints on, and I keep wondering if there is some code somewhere that I didn't see? Who is being mean? Uh? Who can possible be hurt by this posting? I feel like I sit with a bunch of question marks over my head, this is really not understandable. I have read every single post related to this subject, and I still don't understand it? What is the first complaint about? And if no one at some point had mentioned jews in the first place, I would never have guessed that it had anything to do with antisemittism? I mean, either it's is so big cultural differences between the US and Europe that its making a problem for me, or I must be plain ignorant. After 10 years at th euniversity in total with top grades I prefer the cultural explanation, but I still keep wondering... if there was something wrong with th eposting that was files in, what can then be legal to write? I tried analyzing the text word by word, and I simply couldn't find ANYTHING that could be infered as rude towards someone else, espescially towards any etnic group or something like that.
I'm not so sure I feel content about using this board anymore, I don't like a board where I have to feel such paranoia about sharing... espescially if all I say can be directed to be mean towards other people. I am scared of hurting others, if there are no acceptance of individual differences in how to write about your feelings, I'm not sure I dare writing anything... I simply don't know what is read out of what I write...
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 3, 2004, at 16:29:40
In reply to I must be stupid or something...?????????????, posted by Crazy_Charlie on November 3, 2004, at 16:18:41
CC,
You wrote, [...by this posting...?]. Could you identify the posting that you are referring to? If you could, then I could respond accordingly.
Lou
Posted by fayeroe on November 3, 2004, at 16:42:35
In reply to I must be stupid or something...?????????????, posted by Crazy_Charlie on November 3, 2004, at 16:18:41
Welcome to the world of Babble, Charlie!! I understand what you're saying.
Posted by Crazy_Charlie on November 3, 2004, at 16:50:04
In reply to Lou's response to Crazy_Charlie-wtpst » Crazy_Charlie, posted by Lou Pilder on November 3, 2004, at 16:29:40
Yes, sure
the post where you are referring to this post: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/2000/20040626/msgs/403804.htmlThe reason I am asking is that I have a course in ethics when it comes to prevention of suicide, and one of the things that are discussed there ar amongst other open mentioning of suicide. We are clearly differing between someone writing about 1. suicidal thoughts specifying what they are going to do, and 2. writings about how a succesful act was done. The number one is important, because it is a warning sign you should consider very very carefully. And it's nothing wrong stating how you think of doing it, since that could be a potential help in later actions to prevent suicide. The courses I had was lead by the very best experts of suicide in Norway, which have developed a therapy for suicidals that is used in several countries (original called Bærumsmodellen). According to their standards your complaint on this womans post is lot more of a crime than what she is writing, simply because you are kicking someone who's already lying down without even specifying what you are kicking her for. Now I know you say that you thought that what you understand anyone else understand... and that is a very dangerous way of thinking, and can in future lead to very dangerous situations for you... please reconsider this thought before someone hurt you in a misunderstanding! Also, the woman who wrote this is clearly in a very stressing situation, and being suicidal probably also severly depressed. Severly depressed people are NOT thinking the same way as not depressed people, and any kind of criticism concerning them will lead them closer to suicide, I think your complain was, to put it nice, irresponsible. And I say that from the standing point of being a clinical psychologist.
That you are later referring to her sarcastic comment so much discussed earlier here that I wont repeat it, I can understand... but in the light of the fact that we are talking about a woman who is so depressed that she is actually considering suicide, I think we are way beyond going to far. If you expect epople to understand what you mean without explaining it, you should really make sure that you are discussing with people that are at the same level as you.
Another thing that scares me a bit is that your reaction seems to get people more aggressive towards you than what should be the purpose... you are by that pushing people away and making them look negatively at the people you are defending... people who wants to fight anti semittism! That is the worst thing you can do, since that is one of the most important fights in the society. Please consider what you write in a big perspective, and you will get so much more back for it.
When it comes to your second complain in that post, her language, I must admit that its probably cultural differences. If you specify exactly what language that is wrong, I might be able to understand you... but both countries I have been living in have very NON restricted language use, Norwegians and Dutch are in a general basis laughing of the funny "BEEP"s that is put in instead of people swering, though I don't find swearing a very intelligent way of using words.
I hope you don't get offended by this, it is certainly not meant offending. Having friends in some of the most threatened ethnic groups in Norway I know how important anti semittism is, but I also see how some in those groups are making people MORE antisemittic, and that scares me. Considering the hostile environment the workld is today, I really find that scary!
Posted by Crazy_Charlie on November 3, 2004, at 16:51:01
In reply to Re: I must be stupid or something...????????????? » Crazy_Charlie, posted by fayeroe on November 3, 2004, at 16:42:35
"Welcome to the world of Babble, Charlie!! I understand what you're saying. "
I'm not sure I am comforted!
Posted by verne on November 3, 2004, at 18:43:31
In reply to I must be stupid or something...?????????????, posted by Crazy_Charlie on November 3, 2004, at 16:18:41
I agree with your observations. I would elaborate but I don't feel free to express myself. Remember the Seinfeld episode about the soup?
verne
Posted by fayeroe on November 3, 2004, at 19:25:30
In reply to I must be stupid or something...?????????????, posted by Crazy_Charlie on November 3, 2004, at 16:18:41
When I posted "welcome to the world of babble", I was kidding, in a way. I do agree with your post but I should explain to you that things are done here in a very "interesting" way. There are rules and then there are "rules".......One never completely knows what is going on...and we sure don't know why things are the way they are. Sorry that I can't be more forthcoming, but I don't understand the inner workings of this place any more than you do.
Posted by verne on November 3, 2004, at 19:47:54
In reply to Re: I must be stupid or something...????????????? » Crazy_Charlie, posted by fayeroe on November 3, 2004, at 19:25:30
Perhaps the "real" experiment is to see whether the babblelites evolve and develop another language that transcends the rules, and in the end, reach the top after all.
I'm wondering whether language is more about conveying the truth or deceiving others. Don't we develop just more and more elaborate codes by which we keep each other at a distance?
just a thought.
verne
Posted by gardenergirl on November 3, 2004, at 20:26:19
In reply to Re: I must be stupid or something...?????????????, posted by verne on November 3, 2004, at 19:47:54
> Don't we develop just more and more elaborate codes by which we keep each other at a distance?
Absolutely! Good observation.
gg
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 3, 2004, at 20:33:16
In reply to Re: I must be stupid or something...?????????????, posted by gardenergirl on November 3, 2004, at 20:26:19
gg,
You wrote,[...Absolutly!...] in reply to another poster that wrote,[...don't we develop more elaborate codes...that keep each other at a distance...?].
Could this be that you are saying , then, that if a code gets more elaborate, then it causes more separation , or more isolation of people and that codes of simplicity could bring people closer and more supportive?
Lou
Posted by gardenergirl on November 3, 2004, at 20:39:38
In reply to Lou's response to gardengirl's post-ecods » gardenergirl, posted by Lou Pilder on November 3, 2004, at 20:33:16
I suppose you could interpret what I am saying as a plea for simplicity. Really, though I wish we all could communicate directly in a straightforward and honest manner. I think all the rules and recent issues contribute to "posting phobia" about civility.
Plus, I have seen some posts which seem to be saying something beyond what the words themselves say. But then I am reading between the lines, and I may not fully understand the code.
gg
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 3, 2004, at 21:00:29
In reply to Re: Lou's response to gardengirl's post-ecods, posted by gardenergirl on November 3, 2004, at 20:39:38
gg,
In my administrative theory, codes can beeffective as long as there are two principles followed.
A. That the rules in the code be well-defined
B. That the rules be applied equally.
But I do agree thatther is some point that ther can become too many rules even if they are well-defined and applied equally.
Someone said it,[...given enough time, a container can only hold so much...].
Lou
Posted by Crazy_Charlie on November 4, 2004, at 2:06:56
In reply to Re: I must be stupid or something...?????????????, posted by verne on November 3, 2004, at 18:43:31
>"Remember the Seinfeld episode about the soup?"
I have to admit that I hardly watch TV, and except from Friends¨now and then, I espescially don't watch series :-)
Posted by Crazy_Charlie on November 4, 2004, at 3:23:33
In reply to Re: I must be stupid or something...????????????? » Crazy_Charlie, posted by fayeroe on November 3, 2004, at 19:25:30
> When I posted "welcome to the world of babble", I was kidding, in a way. I do agree with your post but I should explain to you that things are done here in a very "interesting" way. There are rules and then there are "rules".......One never completely knows what is going on...and we sure don't know why things are the way they are. Sorry that I can't be more forthcoming, but I don't understand the inner workings of this place any more than you do.
So I see, this must be a weird place... when some one can be harassing someone who is so depressed that they are suicidal for not following the rules, I get a bit.... puzzled?
I must also say that I am absolutely questioning whether this person is who he is he say. He says that he is fighting against antisemitism, but he is acting in such a way that he is rather promoting antisemittism rather than preventing it makes me suspiscious. He could be a fanatic, but he could also be a "troll", someone stiring up debates just for the "fun" of it.
But then, I'm living in the Netherlands... all across the Atlantic, I am a bit afraid of being too tolerant according to what the rules are. But I am seriously worried about the protection of suicidals on this board, a protection I find very important. Harassing is not amongst what I call protection.
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 4, 2004, at 9:04:46
In reply to Re: Lou's response to Crazy_Charlie-wtpst » Lou Pilder, posted by Crazy_Charlie on November 3, 2004, at 16:50:04
> your complaint on this womans post is lot more of a crime than what she is writing
>
> you are kicking someone who's already lying down without even specifying what you are kicking her for.Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 4, 2004, at 9:05:12
In reply to Re: I must be stupid or something...?????????????, posted by Crazy_Charlie on November 4, 2004, at 3:23:33
> I wish we all could communicate directly in a straightforward and honest manner.
>
> ggHostility can be straightforward and honest. Weinberg says:
> We can argue that processes in the VLG reveal the Internet Unconscious, which contains an illusory belief that ultimate freedom of speech is achieved in cyberspace and that forum members always show respect and tolerance to different opinions.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040902/msgs/388862.html
--
> So I see, this must be a weird place... when some one can be harassing someone who is so depressed that they are suicidal for not following the rules, I get a bit.... puzzled?
Have you looked at the FAQ and the new 3-post rule?
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20041027/msgs/407882.htmlBob
Posted by Dinah on November 4, 2004, at 9:15:36
In reply to Re: I must be stupid or something...?????????????, posted by Crazy_Charlie on November 4, 2004, at 3:23:33
I've "known" Lou through this site since not too long after I started posting in 2001. I've also gotten to know him through emails. After knowing him for so long, I can say with reasonable certainty that Lou is who he says he is. He feels passionately about things - including anti-semitism, and he tries hard to make a difference. He's not a troll. The term troll implies motivations that don't apply here. And he does have feelings that can be hurt too. I've always considered Lou a friend.
Nikki has been here far longer than I, and I consider her a friend as well. And I was/am sorry to see her feeling hurt when she was already feeling so bad.
I understand that you were concerned about Nikki and wish to express support, and that's great. I tried to do that as well.
But Lou is a person with feelings too.
Posted by Crazy_Charlie on November 4, 2004, at 9:16:08
In reply to Re: please be civil » Crazy_Charlie, posted by Dr. Bob on November 4, 2004, at 9:04:46
Sorry, I'm just questioning the legality of harassment, I thought I put it in rather nice terms.
Posted by Dinah on November 4, 2004, at 9:16:34
In reply to Re: I must be stupid or something...????????????? » Crazy_Charlie, posted by Dinah on November 4, 2004, at 9:15:36
Posted by Crazy_Charlie on November 4, 2004, at 9:38:35
In reply to Re: please be civil » Crazy_Charlie, posted by Dr. Bob on November 4, 2004, at 9:04:46
I feel a bit like explaining a bit here, I don't really feel "uncivil". What I did was acting under the law I have been under the last year as a clinical psychologist in Norway. In Norway it is stated in the law that "health workers are required to react and help when something inapropriate is happing that is linked to the field they are working, unless it is life threatening for the person to do so". A doctor is for example required to stop and give medical help if he happens to be at the site of an accident. A psychologist is required to react when someone is deliberately harassing someone else, espescially when that someone else is a severly depressed and suicidal person. I saw his attack towards this woman as very harsh and cruel considering the state she was in when she wrote that letter, and I tried to explain that to him so he would understand why I didn't understand his reaction. I can see that I used words that was unnecessarily strong, but I am also specifying that I don't mean to offend him.
I also understand that you probably have different rules over the water, I am sorry, a bit too well trained in my own countries ethics I guess. Yes, I understand that ethics vary, and my countries isn't necessarily the best. I think I must have forgotten this for a moment though, I guess I can blame it on the bronchitis I have been strugling with the last two weeks.
I am sorry mr Lou, and dr Bob, I will certainly restrain my temper next time long enough to be careful towards all parts.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Administration | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.