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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 9, 2004, at 17:54:31
Hi, everyone,
I just read a chapter I found really interesting. Some excerpts (not all exact quotes):
> A definition of the Large Group (LG) can be, "any group with such a large number of participants they cannot be encompassed in a single glance." Seeing is important. Therefore any exchange on the Internet involves some LG dynamics. When people cannot see all the details, fertile ground for imagination and projection is found.
>
> De Mare (1975) recommends exploration of "meetings of the same members over a considerable time, and not simply a sudden short burst of meetings" as is usually done in conferences.
>
> Developing a sense of citizenship is one of the main tasks of participants of the LG. There may be active or passive members, but they all feel a sense of belonging. The degree of involvement changes through time.
>
> Van Vliet and Burgers (1987) argue that communities contain: social interaction, a shared value system, and a shared symbolic system (for example, in cyberspace, emoticons and special abbreviations).
>
> 2 factors work in favour of creating an illusion of safety in the virtual LG (VLG). The 1st is the anonymity of the members, which reduces the risk of rejection. McKenna et al. (2002) found that relationships develop closeness significantly faster over the Internet than offline. The 2nd factor is a core group that carries on group norms and an atmosphere of cohesion. The newcomer might sometimes have the notion that the group is dominated by this subgroup, however, once the newcomer is ready to respect the group norms and its veterans, he or she can be included.
>
> LGs tend to generate strong emotions in their members and to restrict, or even temporarily block, clear thinking. The lack of other than textual cues in cyberspace encourages projections.
>
> The bigger systems are, the more difficult it is to predict their processes.
>
> The LG is full of negative feelings: the frustration of not being heard or mirrored, the alienation one feels in the crowd, the bombarding by stimuli that blocks cognitive functions, the tendency to find some refuge from losing one's identity in the mob by clinging to subgroups and attacking other subgroups.
>
> Cyberspace provides a wider containing ability than is anticipated. McKenna and Green (2002) mention that anonymity helps members to express how they really feel and think.
>
> Holding is the main function of the leader in the VLG. The holding function is most important in cyberspace because this space is far from being a holding environment by its basic characteristics. The leader's holding functions as an anchor to stabilize participants and reduce their anxieties so they feel safe enough to interact. Providing holding also has to do with clear boundaries. In LGs the boundaries are looser, so the need to clarify them becomes stronger. The VLG has even vaguer boundaries.
>
> Most of the forums on the Internet are not process groups. There is no need for the leader to interpret the process unless some crisis occurs or the group is severely distracted from achieving its goals.
>
> Contrary to what happens in face-to-face LGs, the main transference towards the leader identified in the VLG is idealization. Anzieu (1984) argued that transference generally appears as negative, but it can be argued that this is an artifact of the approach that focuses on authority and leadership.
>
> The lack of cues other than textual ones on the Internet can lead to projection of aggressive feelings, but also idealization. Idealization may be enhanced by virtue of the medium. When the participants are not very computer-sophisticated, they can easily project wisdom and computer-wizardry onto the leader. In asynchronous groups, the leader has enough time to consider responses and not act them out, even to consult a colleague, which makes the leader's interventions more optimal, so the idealization has some basis in reality.
>
> Unfortunately, idealization is a double-edged sword. It fosters unrealistic expectations of the group leader, and when these expectations are not met, the group becomes furious. Also, it creates an intensive counter-transference reaction of the leader. It is very easy to fall into the trap.
>
> We can argue that processes in the VLG reveal the Internet Unconscious, which contains an illusory belief that ultimate freedom of speech is achieved in cyberspace and that forum members always show respect and tolerance to different opinions.
>
> The most salient difference between groups in reality and in the virtual environment is the ability to develop norms of tolerance and even intimacy in cyberspace.--Weinberg H. The large group in a virtual environment. In: "The Large Group Re-Visited: The Herd, Primal Horde, Crowds and Masses". Schneider S, Weinberg H. Jessica Kingsley Publishers 2003.
Bob
Posted by Susan47 on September 9, 2004, at 18:26:12
In reply to Virtual large groups, posted by Dr. Bob on September 9, 2004, at 17:54:31
Thank you that was very enlightening. I have lots of questions, but my biggest one is, Did you have an intensive counter-transference reaction off-line? Read this with humour; I have a feeling you have a good sense of humour :)
Posted by Dinah on September 9, 2004, at 18:58:17
In reply to Virtual large groups, posted by Dr. Bob on September 9, 2004, at 17:54:31
Posted by Dinah on September 9, 2004, at 21:39:15
In reply to Virtual large groups, posted by Dr. Bob on September 9, 2004, at 17:54:31
I think it's going to take a long time before I stop referencing this when posting to you. I wonder what that means...
Posted by verne on September 9, 2004, at 23:25:58
In reply to Virtual large groups, posted by Dr. Bob on September 9, 2004, at 17:54:31
I've seen mobs and subgroups in action on message boards - real power struggles. They love to gang up on the unsuspecting visitor, usually with withering sarcasm, ridicule, and self-congratulatory wit - just within the site's terms of agreement.
Any visitor that challenges the alpha group's dominance, in any way, is put in their place with an immediate gang tackle. It becomes obvious that a message board isn't all that different from real life.
That said, I think Dr Bob is a pioneer when it comes to cyber civility and riding "herd" on a message board. Sort of the Wittgenstein of the Language of Civility.
Verne
Posted by tabitha on September 9, 2004, at 23:45:16
In reply to Virtual large groups, posted by Dr. Bob on September 9, 2004, at 17:54:31
Posted by JenStar on September 10, 2004, at 0:27:08
In reply to Virtual large groups, posted by Dr. Bob on September 9, 2004, at 17:54:31
Very interesting! I plan to read the book. Thanks for posting this.
jenStar
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 10, 2004, at 10:19:19
In reply to Re: Virtual large groups » Dr. Bob, posted by verne on September 9, 2004, at 23:25:58
> I think Dr Bob is a pioneer when it comes to cyber civility and riding "herd" on a message board. Sort of the Wittgenstein of the Language of Civility.
Thanks! I did a search (while trying to avoid too much counter-transference :-) and found:
> Language sets everyone the same traps; it is an immense network of easily accessible wrong turnings. And so we watch one man after another walking down the same paths and we know in advance where he will branch off, where walk straight on without noticing the side turning, etc. What I have to do then is erect signposts at all the junctions where there are wrong turnings so as to help people past the danger points.
>
> Ludwig Wittgenstein, 1931. "Culture and Value", translated by Peter Winch, 1980.> Such signposts are all that philosophy can offer and there is no certainty that they will be noticed or followed correctly.
>
> Duncan J. Richter
> http://www.iep.utm.edu/w/wittgens.htmBob
Posted by Dinah on September 10, 2004, at 11:54:32
In reply to Re: Wittgenstein, posted by Dr. Bob on September 10, 2004, at 10:19:19
> Thanks! I did a search (while trying to avoid too much counter-transference :-) and found:
>It's not like I think you're perfect or above irritation, anger, whatever, with posters.
But you're triggering my terror of countertransference that you might have noticed mentioned a lot by posters on PPB (or PBP, I suppose). Most of us are terrified that our therapists have strong negative countertransferential feelings for us. I know you're not our therapists, but all this talk is making me dizzy.
Now I'm going to be afraid to joke with you, or fuss at you, or say nice things about you, or in any way be free and open with you in the way I have liked being for fear you're secretly feeling g*d only knows what in response.
Sigh. But maybe that's your intent.
And isn't it possible that we have feelings for you that aren't entirely transferential? And isn't it possible that you have one or two genuine feelings for us, too? G*d only knows you've gotten to know us much better than we've gotten to know you.
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 10, 2004, at 13:53:38
In reply to Dr. Bob, you're seriously freaking me out, posted by Dinah on September 10, 2004, at 11:54:32
> > > I think Dr Bob is a pioneer...
> >
> > trying to avoid too much counter-transference :-)
>
> you're triggering my terror of countertransference... Most of us are terrified that our therapists have strong negative countertransferential feelings for us.There's a good quote in there about counter-transference, but I don't have it with me now. But don't worry, strong negative feelings aren't the usual response to idealization. :-)
> isn't it possible that we have feelings for you that aren't entirely transferential? And isn't it possible that you have one or two genuine feelings for us, too?
Sure!
Bob
Posted by alexandra_k on September 10, 2004, at 19:25:14
In reply to Re: freaking out, posted by Dr. Bob on September 10, 2004, at 13:53:38
The trouble with idealization is that it is typically followed by disillusionment and devaluation.
It is hard to be realistic when there is not much reality to get ones teeth into.
Sigh, such is life ho hum.
Posted by Dinah on September 10, 2004, at 21:00:40
In reply to Re: freaking out, posted by Dr. Bob on September 10, 2004, at 13:53:38
> There's a good quote in there about counter-transference, but I don't have it with me now.
In what you already posted or elsewhere in it? And in where? I'd be interested to see it, though I understand if you'd rather not share it.
> But don't worry, strong negative feelings aren't the usual response to idealization. :-)
Whew! :)
Thanks for answering, Dr. Bob.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 10, 2004, at 23:21:27
In reply to Virtual large groups, posted by Dr. Bob on September 9, 2004, at 17:54:31
.
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 11, 2004, at 1:25:10
In reply to Re: freaking out » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on September 10, 2004, at 21:00:40
> > There's a good quote in there about counter-transference, but I don't have it with me now.
>
> In what you already posted or elsewhere in it? And in where?From the chapter I was quoting before:
> It is very easy to fall into the trap ... and believe that the leader is really the best LG leader that there ever was.
As I said, not exactly a strong negative feeling. :-)
Bob
Posted by verne on September 11, 2004, at 3:09:40
In reply to Re: freaking out, posted by Dr. Bob on September 10, 2004, at 13:53:38
you kidders, with the transference and counter-transference.
I mistrust most of what goes on in my mind. I admit I'm guilty of "idealizing". In this dream world mind I rummage around, I compared Dr. Bob to Wittgenstein.
Wittgenstein was all about language and I wanted to make the leap that Dr. Bob was all about a kind of pure language of civility.
I'll leave it to the experts - afterall I'm a patient - to how much idealizing and transference is going on.
Just hoping you don't get too transferred, counter-transferred, or idealized.
you're the best.
verne (there I go again)
Posted by Dinah on September 11, 2004, at 9:33:42
In reply to Re: counter-transference, posted by Dr. Bob on September 11, 2004, at 1:25:10
> > It is very easy to fall into the trap ... and believe that the leader is really the best LG leader that there ever was.
>
But of course!! (Not that I've known a lot of VLG leaders. But Babble's the best VLG I've seen, so naturally it follows...)But I must quibble about "easy". I've got no degree in the field of course, but I've taken a nine year practical course on idealized transference. It may be easy to fall into but it's d*mned hard to maintain. Like any other relationship, transferential or otherwise, it takes constant work, re-evaluation of expectations, and commitment. ;)
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 11, 2004, at 10:31:36
In reply to Well, in that case... » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on September 11, 2004, at 9:33:42
> > > It is very easy to fall into the trap ... and believe that the leader is really the best LG leader that there ever was.
>
> I must quibble about "easy". I've got no degree in the field of course, but I've taken a nine year practical course on idealized transference.Just to be clear, it was counter-transference that was being referred to as a trap, not transference...
Bob
Posted by Dinah on September 11, 2004, at 10:33:42
In reply to Re: counter-transference, posted by Dr. Bob on September 11, 2004, at 10:31:36
Oh! Well, that might be much easier. :) I have no experience in the matter.
Posted by 64Bowtie on September 11, 2004, at 12:41:32
In reply to Virtual large groups, posted by Dr. Bob on September 9, 2004, at 17:54:31
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 19, 2004, at 15:03:32
In reply to Virtual large groups, posted by Dr. Bob on September 9, 2004, at 17:54:31
Hi, everyone,
I liked this chapter, too. Plus I know him from when he was in Chicago. The specific LG he's referring to is on a ward in a state psychiatric hospital, so it wasn't a VLG, but some of his comments may apply online, too.
> I sought to make the manifestly public events available for all to attend to and comprehend.
>
> I saw my task as making a space for coherent public discourse.
>
> As these LG meetings progressed, I was able to have more time for post-meetings. We discussed what had just taken place and what I was trying to accomplish.
>
> These developments confirmed my belief that treating the ward as a whole, as an interacting social system of staff and patients, would result in benefits for both. Focusing on individuals would have been counterproductive, intensifying primitive feelings of deprivation and rageful competition.
>
> I managed my role boundaries with deliberate consistency by minimizing contact with individual patients.
>
> I was not to be defeated, damaged, or captured. The persistence and consistency with which I pursued my vision were critical to the positive outcomes. Commitment to task, desire to make the most of this rare opportunity to test my training and confidence in my clinical approach, as well as the predictability of my attendance and role behavior -- all were manifest and all had a positive impact.
>
> Leadership should function in as consistent a way as possible with regard to advancing work on the primary task and managing boundaries in as sensitive yet as firm a way as possible. As the primary task and the leadership functions become more apparent, then these LG meetings become more coherent, more useful, more supportive, and less threatening.
>
> Successful meetings require that those present experience themselves as needed or relevant.
>
> One thinks twice before responding directly to the needs of an individual and instead looks for ways to respond to the impact such request or questions have created for you, the solicitor, and the group. One endeavors to participate creatively in the here and now. One does often have to risk being perceived as remote. Leadership is participatory as well as independent. The group situation must be dealt with as something other than a collection of individuals.
>
> Leadership must be capable of providing interpretive as well as administrative structure based on insightful responsiveness in the here and now to covert as well as manifest group processes.--Lipgar RM. Experiences in large groups: Bion's influence. In: "The Large Group Re-Visited". Schneider S, Weinberg H. Jessica Kingsley Publishers. 2003.
Bob
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