![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 35. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 20, 2004, at 10:06:30
As you probably know, I've had considerable time to think about what I might say, but, truth be told, I could have written this two weeks ago. (In fact, I pretty much did, but there are few changes to make in it, except to reflect ongoing events.) Sometimes your knowledge of a situation is nearly complete, and you need but one final incident to permit a clear decision to be made. This is one of those times.
I cannot return to Babble. It is not good for me to do so. I seldom speak of myself in the open manner in which I'm about to, but that's only because I don't talk about myself all that much. There are so many *other* fascinating things to talk about. ;-)
One of the things that I struggle with, on a daily basis, is PTSD (post-traumatic stress disorder). It's been a part of my existence for so long, that I don't know me other than that way. It took me over a year of discussions with my therapist (and a mugging, which gave me acute PTSD on top of the chronic), for me to even accept the conceptual framework of PTSD. Now, I have no doubt. One of the obligations of self-care with PTSD is to choose environments. Of course, you can't predict with certainty what any environment will hold, but choosing environments at least permits the illusion that you're doing all that you can for yourself.
When I first found Babble, it must have been in its Wild West days, because I recall thinking it was too raunchy for me. Maybe my memory is foggy on that point, but anyway... I found Babble again a little over a year ago, and I thought, "This is a good thing. This is a place where I can fit in." (If you feel otherwise, please permit me my conceit.) Structured as it is, in such a way that verbal violence is minimized, a PTSD person might find discourse and support without (excess) distress. Like a duck to water, I took to it.
It took me a while to get my bearings, to determine how it works, and who was who, and so on. My problem is that I never really did figure out how it works, or perhaps more succinctly, how I can make it work for me.
My childhood was characterized by arbitrary and capricious acts. If you follow certain kinds of family dynamic theory, I was the family scapegoat. It didn't matter what was wrong, it somehow was made to be my fault. I desperately sought to understand the rules, so that I might avoid subsequent verbal and physical violence, but it took me more than thirty years to decide that there never were any rules. There were patterns, I suppose, but nothing that could ever be used to determine whether it was a duck or a goose. I kept looking for the line (between being good and being bad). I never found it. Sometimes things (the abuse) made a little sense, but there were other times when I didn't even know *what* was wrong. And, with a child's world-view, I couldn't possibly know that it really had nothing to do with *me* at all. I was fulfilling a role. If 'all the world's a stage', then I had a very bad role in a very bad play. That's the intellectual perspective. The emotional landscape is still filled with echoes and reflections and mysterious ghosts of my formative years.
I'll just try and paint a brief generic "picture" from my childhood. My brother and sister would taunt me and provoke me, with the sole purpose of getting me to the point of acting out. My mother, on hearing the disturbance, would arrive on the scene. With no regard to the context, without even the pretext of trying to determine what was going on, would simply declare, "It's over. Stop." If sufficiently disturbed, I might cry. Wrong. I'd be met with, "What are you crying about? I'll give you something to cry about!" I hadn't done anything wrong. It wasn't over, notwithstanding declarations that it was. I just wanted to be okay, to have my boundaries respected. And in return, I got verbal, emotional, and physical violence, compounded by having real feelings trivialized and ignored.
I hope only to show that rules, boundaries, intent, and consequences remain important to me. If there are problems in such areas, I want to discuss the whole thing. The absolute worst thing, for me, is the "silent treatment". I don't expect people to deal with things on my timetable. I just want to be acknowledged. Second worst would be "making nice". Call a spade a spade.
PTSD is a weird beast. 9/11 and the WTC (I have trouble even using that acronym, still, after all this time) very nearly caused me to disintegrate. If I hear a siren, I choke up. Somebody needs help. If somebody asks me for my help? I'll do what I can. PTSD's very much a part of my identity, just as is my intellect.
So, now to the block thing, and why I can't return to Babble. If I have erred (this time), it is purely in style, and not content. I truly believe I did nothing wrong.
I'm an academic (disabled). I have no doubt, that if I had never become disabled, I would now be a professor, doing good scientific research, and teaching others how to do good scientific research. There are certain things that come with that environment, and one is style. You use the passive voice. Now, that's a grammatical term. Here's an example. Active voice: "I added 40.0 mg of the reagent..." Passive voice: "40.0 mg of the reagent was added..." It's a scientific/academic requirement. Here I am, trying to write a personal message, and I can go back and find examples of the passive voice herein. It's integral to my style of communication. If I'm not actively communicating with a specific person, I will not use first and second person, and I will default to passive voice. Moreover, if others have expressed a similar opinion, it is also a default to employ ellipsis (implied words not literally stated). (In my opinion, and that of others) X is true. (See references, as listed.) You may lead the geek to Babble, but you can't take the geek out of the geek. Sorry for the mangled metaphor.
Mair said it very well. Thank you.http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20031120/msgs/297774.html
(Aside: Sometimes it only takes the reading of a brief passage to know that I really like someone, and I like you Mair. I'm sorry we don't any longer have this board in common, to become better acquainted.)
I'm going to mangle another metaphor here....it feels like I have the Sword of Bob-ocles dangling over my head. The very fact that Bob rephrased my statement (that got me blocked) as a first person active voice statement that was acceptable to him (which did not appreciably change the meaning of what I said) demonstrates that the issue was style, not content. No "please rephrase". Nope. Lar had to be wrong.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20031120/msgs/297507.htmlI've spoken about this rephrasing with many people, and I am not alone in my belief that the first person version is more emotionally charged than is the passive voice version. They both criticize the statements made by maxx, neither one is directed at maxx, but the first person version adds a new construct, the active sense of hurt feelings.
I won't digress into minutiae of argument here, but I sent Bob an email the day after the s*it hit the fan, that he didn't so much as acknowledge. The silent treatment is unacceptable to me. It's just another reason this is not a safe place for me. I've added the text of that email below (as a post script), if you're interested in seeing what I said.(Dr. Bob and I did enter into a dialogue on this matter, but not for some days after I wrote the body of this piece. I have secured Bob's permission to quote from our email discussions, and rather than attach that here as a post script, I have decided to present it in the form of a dialogue, as a separate posting. I really tried to find a common ground acceptable to us both, but I suppose that we must part due to irreconcilable differences. That makes me sad.)
In any case, it's not like I called maxx a fu**wit, or a blowhard or something. Maybe I should have. I haven't used foul language before this, and perhaps I might have received a PBC. In my opinion, I merely agreed with maxx. It looks very much like he knew he was being both provocative and threatening, to me. He concluded the triggering post with, "scary? please, don't kill the messenger..."
Anyway, I'm not going to flog that horse any longer. The point of this long-winded bit of prose is that extensive efforts at compromise, at defining rules more concisely, have come to nought. I cannot agree with Bob on what civility is, but I am certain that it is *not* "making nice", and it would seem that the issue of harmony (in his own FAQ definition) gets ignored altogether. As I cannot foresee that I will be able to abolish the passive voice from my style of prose, and I may call another spade a spade, and, as the next block will be of four week's duration, I cannot permit myself another chance at Babble. The echos from my childhood are just too strong.
Many have spoken about feelings of safety. As currently constituted, this is not a safe place for me. Arbitrary and capricious blocks are acts of violence.I'm wrong because he says I am (I disagree). It's over when he says it's over (I'm blocked). I can't discuss it (direct and indirect forms of the silent treatment). Penalty disproportionate to offense....Automatic doubling of blocks seems just so knee-jerk, with an emphasis on the jerk. Six months for using bs? (Volkswagen makes great cars, but they gave up on the idea of air-cooled rear-engine designs. Sometimes you have to get a new concept going.) I've tried to compromise, but there comes a point where compromise requires giving away too much of self, of core ways of being. I've tried to find some understanding, but it seems to me that all I've accomplished is to no longer be eligible for "please rephrase", because we've already talked about it all, and at great length. Anyway. I could write a book, I guess, but I'm trying not to do that. So.....
This is a farewell post. I'm not saying I'll never come around again. I don't believe in words like never. But I don't see much point, with a four-week block permanently dangling overhead.
Farewell means that. I hope all who read this far have a chance to find some peace in this, and in all their relationships. I hope that I have brought some good into some lives, and that in those where I have not, that life will grant us another chance to make that better.
I have found peace, myself, in borrowed ideas. Peace is where you find it. I'd like to close with one more little snippet of my life, and a prayer.
Some years ago, following a failed attempt at self-medication (augmentation strategy for psych meds), I found myself 12-stepping. Now, there are many flavours of same, and flavours within flavours.....I found myself drawn to a blend of AA and Native American philosophies. And so it was that I found myself attending a combination AA/pow-wow camp-out weekend convention, near the end of summer. I'm trying hard to not get all verbose again....
In the morning, there was a drummer... went through the camp, drumming on a soft deerskin drum, calling all to the sunrise ceremony. It was a beautiful way to wake up. And I came a little late to the sacred fire, as things were already well underway. There was a wedding taking place, in accord with the ways of the Ojibwa. In the Ojibwa philosophy, even the word wedding is something of a misnomer...words fail me (if you can believe that). The elder who spoke, spoke words of such resonance within me that I was transfixed, tears of joy/relief/acknowledgment/community streaming down my face....again, words fail. Afterwards, I went to the elder to thank him for his words, and blabbered on about how I felt somewhat out of place observing such core elements of his culture, like an eavesdropper... and there was both a moment of dissonance in his eyes (Huh?), and then, of deep wisdom. He replied to me that those were the words of the Creator, carried on his voice, and that He had meant them for me to hear, so it can only be a good thing.
And so it is, that if you have come to read this far, that you were meant to read the following prayer, and that it is intended just for you.
Ojibway PrayerOh Great Spirit, whose voice I hear in the winds
And whose breath gives life to everyone,
Hear me.I come to you as one of your many children.
I am weak .... I am small ... I need your wisdom
and your strength.Let me walk in beauty, and make my eyes ever
behold the red and purple sunsets.
Make my hands respect the things you have made.
And make my ears sharp so I may hear your voice.Make me wise, so that I may understand what you
have taught my people, and the lessons you have hidden
in each leaf and each rock.I ask for wisdom and strength,
Not to be superior to my brothers, but to be able
to fight my greatest enemy, myself.
Make me ever ready to come before you with
clean hands and a straight eye.
So as life fades away as a fading sunset.
My spirit may come to you without shame.
Chi mii'gwetch. Giga-waabamin.
Great thanks, and goodbye.
Lar
Posted by stjames on January 20, 2004, at 11:30:36
In reply to Farewell, fellow Babbleites, posted by Larry Hoover on January 20, 2004, at 10:06:30
Later.
Posted by Susan J on January 20, 2004, at 12:22:07
In reply to Farewell, fellow Babbleites, posted by Larry Hoover on January 20, 2004, at 10:06:30
Hey,
I wish I were precise enough in my thinking and my language to really pin down *why* it's so inherently wrong that the boards' culture, which purports to be supportive and safe, actually has the opposite effect and drives someone like you away.
That took a lot of guts to be so self-revealing. And you did a very eloquent job of it, too. :-)
Your words make *me* think and ponder and wonder about how to improve things in life.....I hope they affect others in the same way.
Your absence from these boards will be a great loss.
Susan
Posted by 64Bowtie on January 20, 2004, at 12:29:26
In reply to Farewell, fellow Babbleites, posted by Larry Hoover on January 20, 2004, at 10:06:30
Posted by mattdds on January 20, 2004, at 12:53:38
In reply to Farewell, fellow Babbleites, posted by Larry Hoover on January 20, 2004, at 10:06:30
Larry,
I understand why you're leaving. To echo the many that have already said it, you have been a tremendous source of good here.
I know your intentions were always good. You have a tremendous soul, and have given so much of your time and knowledge to help others. Most of all, you're a loyal friend to those you care about.
I wish you the best, and I'm confident you'll do what's best for you. Selfishly, I would like to see you stay, but I can see that you're doing what's best for you. Good for you, you deserve it!
You have my email address...use it!
Thank you, Larry Hoover!
Goodbye friend,
Matt
Posted by Dinah on January 20, 2004, at 13:08:13
In reply to Farewell, fellow Babbleites, posted by Larry Hoover on January 20, 2004, at 10:06:30
I see you've put serious thought into this, and while I (and Babble in general) will miss you, I'm glad you're doing what is best for you.
I'm sorry you and Dr. Bob couldn't work something out. :( I know you have a great off-Babble support system, and I'm very glad about that.
Please know you've done something very good while you're here.
You know how to find me, don't be shy about saying hallo.
(I felt the exact same way about Babble and the civility rules as you did when you rediscovered this place.)
Many good wishes.
Dinah
Posted by Penny on January 20, 2004, at 13:22:29
In reply to Farewell, fellow Babbleites, posted by Larry Hoover on January 20, 2004, at 10:06:30
I wish you all the best and will miss reading your posts. Take care.
Penny
Posted by NikkiT2 on January 20, 2004, at 13:49:59
In reply to Farewell, fellow Babbleites, posted by Larry Hoover on January 20, 2004, at 10:06:30
Good luck Larry, and I hope you take good care of yourself.
Nikki x
Posted by Elle2021 on January 20, 2004, at 16:58:15
In reply to Farewell, fellow Babbleites, posted by Larry Hoover on January 20, 2004, at 10:06:30
Lars,
Your post really moved me. I am so sorry to hear you have decided to leave. You mentioned that you weren't saying that you would never come back. I hope that in time, perhaps after things settle, that you will feel safe enough to return. I know that you are my favorite poster to debate with, hands down. I never agreed with your block, and I'm sorry that I never spoke up. I just felt that it was better for me to stay out of it. I wish I had said something, please forgive me. I'm sorry to hear about your childhood, it reminds me of my own. I was also led to believe that my feelings were "wrong" or not important. It hurts. I can understand why boundaries are vital to you, they are extremely important to me also.I just want to add, that you are one of the most eloquent writers that I have ever had the pleasure of reading. I will really miss you and your insight Larry Hoover. All the best to you, and God Bless. I will be praying for you.
Sincere Regards,
Elle
Posted by tabitha on January 20, 2004, at 17:24:34
In reply to Farewell, fellow Babbleites, posted by Larry Hoover on January 20, 2004, at 10:06:30
Thanks for sharing all that, Larry. I think I understand your feelings about the block and the civility rules a bit better now. Despite our disagreements on some things, I have much respect for the integrity and generosity you've shown here at Babble. I wish you peace and wholeness.. in moving past this stage in your life.. and starting the next.
Posted by rosmarin on January 20, 2004, at 18:12:11
In reply to Farewell, fellow Babbleites, posted by Larry Hoover on January 20, 2004, at 10:06:30
Hello Larry, I'm a lurker and I had meant to post to you before. I always liked your posts very much for the real information in them, which I think can sometimes be more helpful than effusive messages of support.
It is very good of Bob to make this site available, and he has some high ideals for it, but I think in spite of that there is dysfunction in the system. I agree that you have become the current scapegoat.. If it is not possible for you to be real, then the only healthy thing you can do is to leave. Incidentally, Stjames posted recently that he couldn't understand why he was not blocked even though he overstepped the line frequently - I think that's because he is the clown in this system.
To switch from family dynamics to Jung! I saw some posts recently about the site's shadow, along the lines that the site's shadow consisted of profanity, name-calling, joking about death and so on. But these things are suppressed quite successfully, and isn't the shadow as much about about things which are acted out but not acknowledged? The shadow of this site also consists of envy, rage and cruelty which are not acknowledged and are acted out in a civil manner.
Posted by stjames on January 20, 2004, at 19:36:08
In reply to Re: Farewell, fellow Babbleites, posted by rosmarin on January 20, 2004, at 18:12:11
Posted by gabbix2 on January 20, 2004, at 20:13:13
In reply to please be civil, rosmarin (nm), posted by stjames on January 20, 2004, at 19:36:08
> Incidentally, Stjames posted recently that he couldn't understand why he was not blocked even though he overstepped the line frequently - I think that's because he is the clown in this system.
I hope you have a different definition of clown than the one I do.
If you've read many of ST. James posts, or seen
how long he's been a valued contributer to Babble I'm sure you'd also see that his depth and intelligence can hardly be categorized under the term Clown. Maybe you could research a little more before you label someone?
Posted by tealady on January 20, 2004, at 20:46:07
In reply to please be civil, rosmarin (nm), posted by stjames on January 20, 2004, at 19:36:08
StJames,
I just had to respond. I really didn't take the same meaning as you did to rosmarin's post. Until I just read your and gabbi's replies..it actually never occurred to me that it could be taken that way. I had taken it as completely complimentary ... which just goes to show how words can be read differently.
A clown, to me, implies both a really great sense of humour and the ability to put it across ..as well as a fair whack of applicable relevant knowledgable content to go with it ..at least to me.
And that's how you came across as trying to be to me too.
Posted by gabbix2 on January 20, 2004, at 21:03:20
In reply to Re: please be civil, rosmarin » stjames, posted by tealady on January 20, 2004, at 20:46:07
Well St James certainly does have a rapier wit!
I hope that's what Rosmarin meant. If it is Rosmarin I sincerely apologize.
Thanks Tealady for pointing out a completely plausible explanation.
Posted by shar on January 20, 2004, at 21:53:32
In reply to Re: please be civil, rosmarin » tealady, posted by gabbix2 on January 20, 2004, at 21:03:20
Larry AND St. James are leaving?!
Man, I hate that! I really value your input so much (both of you) and don't want to see you leave. I have an aversion to losing people.
If you ever come back you both will be so welcome (see my post above, Lar). And, St. James, I will miss your 'James here' that resides in my memory.
What a bummer.
Well, I wish you both the very best, and hope your lives will do nothing but improve.
Shar
Posted by sienna on January 21, 2004, at 1:17:24
In reply to Farewell, fellow Babbleites, posted by Larry Hoover on January 20, 2004, at 10:06:30
I wish you the best, really and maybe one day we will meet again on another site somewhere or here or something. If you find any interesting places or need a friend to talk to or anything else, my email is
siennababble at yahoo dot comTake care of yourself and thanks again for all of the knowledge you have passed on to all of us.
Sienna who is very sorry to see you go...
.......
...
and also very pissed off at the bureacracy and madness...
Posted by rosmarin on January 21, 2004, at 2:09:57
In reply to Re: please be civil, rosmarin » stjames, posted by tealady on January 20, 2004, at 20:46:07
> StJames,
> I just had to respond. I really didn't take the same meaning as you did to rosmarin's post. Until I just read your and gabbi's replies..it actually never occurred to me that it could be taken that way. I had taken it as completely complimentary ... which just goes to show how words can be read differently.
> A clown, to me, implies both a really great sense of humour and the ability to put it across ..as well as a fair whack of applicable relevant knowledgable content to go with it ..at least to me.
> And that's how you came across as trying to be to me too.
>
>Yes, tealady, that's exactly what I meant. I was quite upset about Larry when I wrote my post, and I'm sorry, stjames, that I didn't explain. My hypothesis was that Bob might not want to sanction stjames if the dysfunctional system is helped by having a clown, jester, mascot, whatever. But I don't think stjames colluded with this - my own feeling is that he was always being real, but using his rapier wit to make important points.
My main point, though, was that the dysfunctional system needs scapegoats from time to time. The trouble with getting rid of Larry is that the cathartic fix will only last a while, and then someone else will have to start being the scapegoat.
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 21, 2004, at 2:23:43
In reply to Farewell, fellow Babbleites, posted by Larry Hoover on January 20, 2004, at 10:06:30
> I cannot return to Babble. It is not good for me to do so. I seldom speak of myself in the open manner in which I'm about to, but that's only because I don't talk about myself all that much. There are so many *other* fascinating things to talk about. ;-)
I'm really sorry about how things have gone lately. You've been a tremendous asset, and you have to do what you have to do, but I think it would be great if you could somehow see your way to returning later to continue to contribute to this community -- or just to talk more about yourself!
Best wishes,
Bob
Posted by SLS on January 21, 2004, at 7:26:38
In reply to Farewell, fellow Babbleites, posted by Larry Hoover on January 20, 2004, at 10:06:30
Dear Larry,
Please see:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040112/msgs/303623.html
I don't know what more I can say.
Be well. I'm sure you will.
With the greatest of sincerity,
Scott
Posted by Susan J on January 21, 2004, at 7:36:19
In reply to Re: Farewell, fellow Babbleites » Larry Hoover, posted by SLS on January 21, 2004, at 7:26:38
Daggit, this thread is gonna make me cry.
:-(
Posted by TeeJay on January 21, 2004, at 21:58:29
In reply to Re: Farewell » Larry Hoover, posted by Dr. Bob on January 21, 2004, at 2:23:43
> I cannot return to Babble. It is not good for me to do so. I seldom speak of myself in the open manner in which I'm about to, but that's only because I don't talk about myself all that much. There are so many *other* fascinating things to talk about. ;-)
I'm really sorry about how things have gone lately. You've been a tremendous asset, and you have to do what you have to do, but I think it would be great if you could somehow see your way to returning later to continue to contribute to this community -- or just to talk more about yourself!
Best wishes,
Bob
As far as I can see Bob, you did a very good job of driving Lar off this board all by yourself!
I dont like bad karma and as such have not come here often and have commented even less, but I sensed something was going on by tealadys remarks to me earlier so I came and had a look.
I read Lar's fresh posting after his ban (the post you subsequently banned him for 6 weeks for), and fail miserably to see what your problem is with his posting!?!?! The post he is replying to is little short of a direct and personal attack on Larry yet you ban larry for defending himself in a robust but civil manner. Let me remind you that civil doesnt necessarily mean one responds like a pussy cat, one can be firm or robust in ones reply and still remain civil.
I recall shortly after I had registered here, reading a post from someone who claimed to be sh*gging their dog. Now if the posting had obviously come from someone with a genuine mental/sexual problem then vile as the posting may have been, the poster would have deserved (and got) support from this community, but it was blatantly clear the post was not genuine but a deliberate attempt to take the p*ss out of you, your board and everyone who posts here. You chose at the time to fight the calls for the posts removal very strongly, and even warned responders for their scathing remarks about the post.
Perhaps you'd enlighten me (and perhaps others) byt explaining how you balance or justify the above actions with the manner in which you have treated Larry Hoover, because from where I am sitting they seem wholly at odds!
I'll crawl back under my stone now (I presume posting in a manner that puts myself down is ok???).
TJ
Posted by mair on January 21, 2004, at 22:18:43
In reply to Farewell, fellow Babbleites, posted by Larry Hoover on January 20, 2004, at 10:06:30
" Mair said it very well. Thank you.
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20031120/msgs/297774.html
> (Aside: Sometimes it only takes the reading of a brief passage to know that I really like someone, and I like you Mair. I'm sorry we don't any longer have this board in common, to become better acquainted.)"Larry - thank you so very much for these kind words. They provided very much of a mixed bag - the sole bright spot in yet another bad day - but of course i wish your post was not a farewell. Please take care of yourself.
Mair
Posted by EscherDementian on January 23, 2004, at 3:10:40
In reply to Oh, Lar » Larry Hoover, posted by Susan J on January 20, 2004, at 12:22:07
Thank you Larry, for all the guidance and help your knowledge/experience and truthful sincerity have offered me, too. Your sharing has made an infinite difference for me in ways large and small. i will miss you. i most whole heartedly agree with most of the afore posted responses... and to say any more, i can't use words that don't say enough.
If you can see your way clear to this, Please keep in touch with me? Just a ping will do...
Escher
QfamilyMartinsen@yahoo.comP.S.
You once called me 'dude'...
shhhh... i'm not.
take care
Posted by noa on January 24, 2004, at 13:28:51
In reply to Farewell, fellow Babbleites, posted by Larry Hoover on January 20, 2004, at 10:06:30
Larry,
I thank you for your post, and I think we all need to do whatever we need to do to take care of ourselves.
But as someone who once took a "healing hiatus" from Babble, let me offer that I hope you feel welcome to come by at a later time for a visit IF it feels right to you.
I have appreciated what I've learned from you.
Take care.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Administration | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.