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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 193. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 4, 2004, at 21:41:47
In reply to re: please be civil » Mercedes » Larry Hoover, posted by Dr. Bob on January 3, 2004, at 23:39:34
re: please don't pressure others??? » Dr. Bob
Posted by Sabina on January 4, 2004, at 12:43:21
In reply to re: please be civil » Mercedes » Larry Hoover, posted by Dr. Bob on January 3, 2004, at 23:39:34
i was following this thread with interest, since i take seroquel and am concerned about any possible side effects.
i do not view larry's polite reiterations to request supportive data to be uncivil, nor did maxx seem to show any signs of feeling "pressured." i feel that this pbc was obscure and surpassing even broad strokes of subjectivity.
not that anyone cares, but that's my vote.
--
re: please don't pressure others??? » Sabina
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 4, 2004, at 13:06:13
In reply to re: please don't pressure others??? » Dr. Bob, posted by Sabina on January 4, 2004, at 12:43:21
> i was following this thread with interest, since i take seroquel and am concerned about any possible side effects.
>
> i do not view larry's polite reiterations to request supportive data to be uncivil, nor did maxx seem to show any signs of feeling "pressured." i feel that this pbc was obscure and surpassing even broad strokes of subjectivity.
>
> not that anyone cares, but that's my vote.Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
I thought that asking for evidence for those particular facts was a reasonable thing, and the only part he was leaving out.
Lar
--
agree with Sabina re: Lar's post not pressuring (nm)
Posted by Lyrical13 on January 4, 2004, at 14:01:03
In reply to re: please don't pressure others??? » Sabina, posted by Larry Hoover on January 4, 2004, at 13:06:13
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 4, 2004, at 22:42:51
In reply to redirected: please don't pressure others???, posted by Dr. Bob on January 4, 2004, at 21:41:47
> I thought that asking for evidence for those particular facts was a reasonable thing
>
> LarAsking once or twice, yes...
Bob
Posted by Sabina on January 4, 2004, at 23:11:51
In reply to Re: please don't pressure others, posted by Dr. Bob on January 4, 2004, at 22:42:51
larry asked for evidence *only* as many times as maxx insisted it existed...yet consistently failed to produce it.
here's an idea to even things out, larry:
(unofficial) pbc to maxx from me,
"please don't promise others. thanks."well, i thought it was funny. :)
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 5, 2004, at 8:04:31
In reply to Re: please don't pressure others, posted by Dr. Bob on January 4, 2004, at 22:42:51
> > I thought that asking for evidence for those particular facts was a reasonable thing
> >
> > Lar
>
> Asking once or twice, yes...
>
> BobBecause you're also a scientist, Bob, I know you've come across this aphorism before, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
Given the context of the remarks in question, a thread about drug withdrawal, claims of "wiping hardware" and "deep destruction" are more than just simple opinion. They are provocative and threatening. It is perfectly reasonable to want to examine the data/research/information used to arrive at such a conclusion, particularly in light of the repetitive statements that such evidence exists.
Given the possibility that reporting bias does exist (e.g. suppression of evidence by pharmaceutical companies), I would have been somewhat satisfied by ordinary, rather than extraordinary supporting data. Instead, I was supplied with ad hominem remarks. All I was doing was keeping maxx from changing the subject to issues of my credibility (fallacy of distraction), back towards the topic under debate, the existence and form of atypical neuroleptic malignant syndrome (or variants). That is simple debating strategy; keep it on topic. I had not yet gotten to discussing his fallacies of content (e.g. post hoc ergo propter hoc, non sequitur).
There is nothing more civil than debate, IMPNSHO. And you PBC'd the wrong party, again, IMPNSHO.
Lar
Posted by stjames on January 5, 2004, at 10:06:31
In reply to Re:saying horrific things isn't pressuring others? » Dr. Bob, posted by Larry Hoover on January 5, 2004, at 8:04:31
Given the context of the remarks in question, a thread about drug withdrawal, claims of "wiping hardware" and "deep destruction" are more than just simple opinion. They are provocative and threatening.
Sound like that needs a "please don't generalize or jump to conclusions"
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 5, 2004, at 10:24:39
In reply to Re:saying horrific things isn't pressuring others?, posted by stjames on January 5, 2004, at 10:06:31
> Given the context of the remarks in question, a thread about drug withdrawal, claims of "wiping hardware" and "deep destruction" are more than just simple opinion. They are provocative and threatening.
>
> Sound like that needs a "please don't generalize or jump to conclusions"Dear God, if that isn't an example of the very thing I was talking about....focussing on semantic minutiae rather than the message itself is nothing more than changing the subject....if it isn't obvious that *I* felt provoked and threatened (implied ellipsis), then there is no point in my posting at all.
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 5, 2004, at 10:33:00
In reply to Re: please don't pressure others, posted by Dr. Bob on January 4, 2004, at 22:42:51
> > I thought that asking for evidence for those particular facts was a reasonable thing
> >
> > Lar
>
> Asking once or twice, yes...
>
> BobForget blocking me....I will block myself.
I was asked to join the thread
By people scared by what was said
I welcomed the chance to join in debate
All I asked was he substantiate
I didn't try to quiet his voice
I merely asked that he declare his choice
It wasn't about what I could find
But how he came to make up his mindAnd I can't believe I even have to say that.
Lar
Posted by Sabina on January 5, 2004, at 10:45:36
In reply to Re:saying horrific things isn't pressuring others? » Dr. Bob, posted by Larry Hoover on January 5, 2004, at 8:04:31
*i* absolutely felt pressured, freaked, distraught, and horrified by maxx's claims of "wiping hardware" and "deep destruction" and i greatly appreciate larry's efforts to debate these claims.
Posted by stjames on January 5, 2004, at 10:58:14
In reply to Re:saying horrific things isn't pressuring others? » stjames, posted by Larry Hoover on January 5, 2004, at 10:24:39
> > Given the context of the remarks in question, a thread about drug withdrawal, claims of "wiping hardware" and "deep destruction" are more than just simple opinion. They are provocative and threatening.
> >
> > Sound like that needs a "please don't generalize or jump to conclusions"
>
> Dear God, if that isn't an example of the very thing I was talking about....focussing on semantic minutiae rather than the message itself is nothing more than changing the subject....if it isn't obvious that *I* felt provoked and threatened (implied ellipsis), then there is no point in my posting at all.
>Sorry, not hetting you here. In any case, it seems one can make outlandish, grandiose, and inflamitory claims with no repercussions. When we mearly ask for proof we get our hand slapped.
HOw does this make us feel safe ? It does not.
This is not a safe place. If such posters can run
on at will and the moderator will not step in, this is not a safe place.
Posted by zenhussy on January 5, 2004, at 11:07:58
In reply to Board not a safe place, posted by stjames on January 5, 2004, at 10:58:14
>Sorry, not hetting you here. In any case, it seems one can make outlandish, grandiose, and inflamitory claims with no repercussions. When we mearly ask for proof we get our hand slapped.
>HOw does this make us feel safe ? It does not.
>This is not a safe place. If such posters can run on at will and the moderator will not step in, this is not a safe place.stjames,
Dr. Bob has never claimed to make this board a safe place for all posters. Nor has he ever claimed that all voices are welcome here. In fact he's posted to the effect that not everyone is welcome here and that this isn't the right place for everyone.
Not wanting to show favourtism I do not know how the doctor decides when to shake his ruler and smack wrists and when to turn a blind eye. I do not know the inner workings of the Hsiung. The almighty Dr. Bob of Babbledom. Only he can answer in cryptic emoticons.
Sadly you are correct with saying this is not a safe place. That has been brought up time and time again by many voices over the years. I'm sure you remember most of the departed posters that used to hang around these halls.
--zh
Posted by Sabina on January 5, 2004, at 11:13:52
In reply to Board not a safe place, posted by stjames on January 5, 2004, at 10:58:14
apparently, the ruling is that we can ask for proof one or two times.
four, as larry discovered, is quite unacceptable.
would anyone like to try for three? i don't think that's been tested yet.
Posted by stjames on January 5, 2004, at 11:25:16
In reply to Re: Board not a safe place, posted by Sabina on January 5, 2004, at 11:13:52
>
> would anyone like to try for three? i don't think that's been tested yet.
>
>Better that the moderator do his job and post when folks are making inflamitory claims, that way
no one has to ask over and over.Many times it seems Dr Bob protects the trouble makers and the rest of us have or resolve tested to no say anything. The majority is punished in the name of the rights of the few.
Posted by NikkiT2 on January 5, 2004, at 11:32:36
In reply to Re: Board not a safe place, posted by Sabina on January 5, 2004, at 11:13:52
Could you clarify your statement please?? I don't know where you got your facts on this from.
regards
Nikki
Posted by NikkiT2 on January 5, 2004, at 11:35:34
In reply to Re: Board not a safe place, posted by stjames on January 5, 2004, at 11:25:16
The thing is james, was maxx actually breaking any of the rules??
The clarification rule was bought in when one certian poster asked *constantly* for clarification, so we all know why its here, and it was bought in because we (the posters) wanted it.
OK, Dr Bob has used this in a manner that seems outlandish here, but it was a rule. I can't see, looking at it toally neutrally, what rule maxx could have broken in order to get banned / pbc'd etc.I'm not saying I agree with this at all, I'm just looking at facts.
Nikki
Posted by Dinah on January 5, 2004, at 12:00:23
In reply to Board not a safe place, posted by stjames on January 5, 2004, at 10:58:14
Posted by Sabina on January 5, 2004, at 12:05:22
In reply to Re: Board not a safe place » Sabina, posted by NikkiT2 on January 5, 2004, at 11:32:36
i "got my facts on this" from the contents of the above thread. mostly, i was attempting to make a point that obviously missed the mark, for which i apologize.
1. bob said it was okay to ask for clarification "once or twice"
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20031120/msgs/296542.html2. larry was pbc'd for asking for proof he'd been assured existed four times (over several posts) http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20031231/msgs/296194.html
3. i was suggesting, in an allegedly clever manner, that i felt like things had perhaps gotten too microscopically focused and subjectivly oblique to be doing anyone good service, civility-wise.
____________________________________
1 .apparently, the ruling is that we can ask for proof one or two times.
2. four, as larry discovered, is quite unacceptable.
3. would anyone like to try for three? i don't think that's been tested yet.
Posted by stjames on January 5, 2004, at 12:10:56
In reply to Re: Board not a safe place » stjames, posted by NikkiT2 on January 5, 2004, at 11:35:34
> The thing is james, was maxx actually breaking any of the rules??
Dr Bob often asks people not to over-generalize
or jump to conclusions. Have not you seen this before ?
Posted by NikkiT2 on January 5, 2004, at 12:11:27
In reply to Re: Board not a safe place » NikkiT2, posted by Sabina on January 5, 2004, at 12:05:22
(ooops, I missed off the wink at the end of my post to you.. I was gonna try for the magical 3 *laughing* I must remember my Dr Bobesque emoticons!! *l*)
Nikki xxx *winking most sincerely*
Posted by NikkiT2 on January 5, 2004, at 12:17:21
In reply to Re: Board not a safe place, posted by stjames on January 5, 2004, at 12:10:56
yes, I have.
But like zenhussy said, it is hard to know how he is going to interpret the rules.. I missed that bit.
But my point was, that Larry "broke" a rule that was put in place due to us asking.. I feel that he was proper in the way he asked - he only responded to maxx asking for each statement to be verified.
But maxx did claim to have a specific source, and was talking about that. He believed what he was saying it seems, and as such I don't understand how it makes this place so unsafe. And I don't see where he was over generalising either.
Nikki
Posted by stjames on January 5, 2004, at 12:20:38
In reply to Re: Board not a safe place » stjames, posted by NikkiT2 on January 5, 2004, at 12:17:21
> But maxx did claim to have a specific source, and was talking about that. He believed what he was saying it seems, and as such I don't understand how it makes this place so unsafe. And I don't see where he was over generalising either.
>
> Nikki"wiping hardware" and "deep destruction" are
over generalising. Period.
Posted by Dinah on January 5, 2004, at 12:36:54
In reply to Re: Board not a safe place, posted by stjames on January 5, 2004, at 12:20:38
Posted by stjames on January 5, 2004, at 12:46:45
In reply to Re: But he was *blocked* (nm), posted by Dinah on January 5, 2004, at 12:36:54
The block has nothing to do with what we are talking about:
Please don't use language that could offend others, post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down, or use this site to exchange information that could be used to obtain prescription medication without a prescription. The last time you were blocked it was for 1 week, so this time it's for 3.
Posted by gabbix2 on January 5, 2004, at 13:04:07
In reply to Re: Board not a safe place » stjames, posted by NikkiT2 on January 5, 2004, at 12:17:21
How can it BE considered safe? Theoretically anyone who wanted to make a stir can make frightening comments about a drug-- state opinion as fact-- claim to have "hundreds of sources" to back up such a claims and yet be protected from having to substantiate anything.
More importantly when someone cares enough about other posters to take the time to get to the truth (before Dr. Bob has a chance to look at the thread and decide whether a poster is "overgeneralizing" or not) they get their fingers slapped.BTW..Maxx was not blocked for over-generalizing
Though wasn't someone given a weeks block a while ago for calling Effexor a demon drug?
Posted by stjames on January 5, 2004, at 13:16:10
In reply to Re: Board not a safe place » NikkiT2, posted by gabbix2 on January 5, 2004, at 13:04:07
Thanks gabbix2, for understanding my point.
Are we like sheep, unable to be defended everytime
someone makes outragious claims ? Yes we can refute them, but when someone makes these claims over and over again, the moderator should (and has in the past) spoken and asked folks not to generalize. So, if you want to make these genetal claims you need to give proof.Again it seems to me the rights of a few (to inflame) are supported over the rights of the rest of us to feel safe.
Posted by NikkiT2 on January 5, 2004, at 16:51:38
In reply to Re: Board not a safe place » NikkiT2, posted by gabbix2 on January 5, 2004, at 13:04:07
OK, I guess I have mis understood between scary and safe. To me, safe is where it can damage me (or who ever) in some way.. Someone posting about bad drug reactions or what ever, can be very scary, of course, but to me, it wasn't unsafe in my definition. I never say my opinion is the right one, its just my own.
And I *know* that maxx wasn't blocked for over generalising, I was just saying why I thought he hadn't been is all. That he hadn't broekn the rules so to speak.
And that while Larry's PBC was a very rough decision, and one I don't think is fair, I can understand why it was done.Thats all I was saying. Not what was right or wrong. Just my thoughts on it
Nikki
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