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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on August 4, 2002, at 23:17:17
> > Hope the rest of us aren't dumb, mean, and heartless.
> >
> > You can make a statement by leaving in protest but you can't make a difference.
>
> Your first sentence was fine, but I'm afraid your second could lead others to feel put down, so I'm going to block you from posting for a week.
>
> BobDr. Bob, You say Phil's first sentence was fine, but that his second might lead to others feeling put down.
I think one of us is misinterpreting his second sentence. I'm perfectly willing to admit it's me, but could you perhaps clarify who could feel put down by that statement and why? (If it's possible without making a bigger mess, of course.)
I took his second sentence to be a general inspirational sort of thing. That there were those who left to make a philosophical statement, and those who stayed behind to try to make a difference here on this board. Perhaps a slight value judgement, but nothing that would on its face appear a blockable offense.
Those of us who are trying to make a difference could use a bit of rallying about now, you know. And Phil really has been trying to make a positive difference around here, along with many others. Or so it appears to me...
If I missed the subtleties involved, I apologize. And I certainly don't want to get you involved in another controversy re. blocking. I've felt nothing but the greatest sympathy for you lately.
I just want to clarify what constitutes a violation of policy.
Dinah
Posted by Gabbi on August 4, 2002, at 23:35:40
In reply to Re: blocked for week » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on August 4, 2002, at 23:17:17
I know you didn't do it for me but thank-you Dinah.
Posted by judy1 on August 4, 2002, at 23:38:14
In reply to Re: blocked for week » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on August 4, 2002, at 23:17:17
I, too, am completely confused about Phil's block. (Actually I supported his post). I guess I could use an explanation too. Thanks, judy
Posted by SandraDee on August 4, 2002, at 23:41:41
In reply to Thats x-actly what I was trying to say^^^^ » Dinah, posted by Gabbi on August 4, 2002, at 23:35:40
I don't see any wrong in that message. Phil has used great restraint in a lot of happenings on the board lately and has been wonderful at trying to keep the peace. He didn't even get a PBC or anything as a "warning" just BAM... block. I don't get it either...
Phil, hang in there - hope to see you back soon. Hopefully sooner than a week. I don't even think it deserved a PBC, but better a warning than a block.
Posted by tina on August 4, 2002, at 23:42:58
In reply to Geez, Dinah you beat me to it, posted by judy1 on August 4, 2002, at 23:38:14
Having been blocked for a week for a justified reason, I have to admit to being completely perplexed by Phil's block too. I don't see anything offensive in it.
Posted by Gabbi on August 5, 2002, at 0:09:27
In reply to Re: Geez, Dinah you beat me to it, posted by tina on August 4, 2002, at 23:42:58
The post to which Phil was responding, in my opinion was posted with the sole intention of making people feel bad, without any constructive aspects. (we've all acted on impulse I'm sure, I'm only using that post as an example)
And yet only a warning was given why is that?Thanks
Gabbi
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 5, 2002, at 0:19:59
In reply to Re: blocked for week » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on August 4, 2002, at 23:17:17
> > > You can make a statement by leaving in protest but you can't make a difference.
>
> I took his second sentence to be a general inspirational sort of thing. That there were those who left to make a philosophical statement, and those who stayed behind to try to make a difference here on this board.That would've been fine: "There were those who left to make a philosophical statement, and those who stayed behind to try to make a difference here on this board." Or even: "Some tried to make a difference by leaving in protest, others are trying to make a difference by staying behind." It should be possible to inspire without putting down the choices of others. You know, there's more than one road...
> And Phil really has been trying to make a positive difference around here
I know, and I appreciate that, but I do think I let things go on too long before, so I'm trying not to do that again. I hope he understands.
Bob
Posted by Dinah on August 5, 2002, at 5:50:08
In reply to Re: inspire without putting down, posted by Dr. Bob on August 5, 2002, at 0:19:59
> > And Phil really has been trying to make a positive difference around here
>
> I know, and I appreciate that, but I do think I let things go on too long before, so I'm trying not to do that again. I hope he understands.
>
> BobI hope so too, Dr. Bob, I really do. I don't think I would, but hopefully Phil is a bigger man than I....
Posted by Dinah on August 5, 2002, at 6:36:33
In reply to Re: inspire without putting down » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on August 5, 2002, at 5:50:08
I think you've probably opened a can of worms here by blocking someone for a statement that might have possibly been a slight value judgement on those who have left.
But, if you're going to take that position, could you please also be equally vigilant about protecting the feelings of those who have stayed from posts that make value judgements on the depth and purpose of the posts currently on board, and the wit and wisdom of those who make them? I've been trying not to be so sensitive about that sort of thing, thinking that people can start their own threads that suit their own tastes. But if you're going to start protecting people's feelings to that extent, could you also protect ours? Then we could feel confident that you will deal with things without our possibly making now PBCable offenses.
Or perhaps you could save yourself a whole lot of problems and just go back to PBC'ing and blocking truly obvious and gross violations of the civility policy.
And to be absolutely clear, are value judgements, even mildly stated now a PBCable offense?
Respectfully,
Dinah
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 5, 2002, at 10:22:02
In reply to Re: Phil's block another clarification please, posted by Gabbi on August 5, 2002, at 0:09:27
> The post to which Phil was responding, in my opinion was posted with the sole intention of making people feel bad, without any constructive aspects.
Please don't jump to conclusions about others or post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
> (we've all acted on impulse I'm sure, I'm only using that post as an example)
Sorry, but specific examples can lead specific people to feel accused or put down.
> And yet only a warning was given why is that?
See:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforce
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 5, 2002, at 10:27:13
In reply to Re: P.S. Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on August 5, 2002, at 6:36:33
> I think you've probably opened a can of worms here by blocking someone for a statement that might have possibly been a slight value judgement on those who have left.
This whole site is a can of worms! Slightness is in the eye of the beholder.
> But, if you're going to take that position, could you please also be equally vigilant about protecting the feelings of those who have stayed from posts that make value judgements on the depth and purpose of the posts currently on board, and the wit and wisdom of those who make them?
I'm trying.
> And to be absolutely clear, are value judgements, even mildly stated now a PBCable offense?
Sorry, but it depends. In this case, for one thing, I'm still trying to stamp out a forest fire...
Bob
Posted by Gabbi on August 5, 2002, at 10:46:57
In reply to Re: please be civil » Gabbi, posted by Dr. Bob on August 5, 2002, at 10:22:02
I apologize again for using your post as an example, it was poor judgement, and of course it wouldn't be possible to not take that personally. Even though I honestly didn't mean for you too.
I've read many posts I thought were more than unkind,and they weren't blocked I was trying to find the rationaleTime for me to take a break
I'm sorry If I made you feel bad,
Its not an excuse but I'm at an all time low and
viewing things through depression glasses.Gabbi
Posted by Gabbi on August 5, 2002, at 11:15:13
In reply to Re: Please be civil alii-Dr.Bob, posted by Gabbi on August 5, 2002, at 10:46:57
What I was trying to say, was similar to what Dinah had said. There have been quite few mean-spirited comments regarding the quality of "the board" The board is made up of peoples feelings and ideas its animate.
A generalized comment regarding its lack of intelligent content, caring or compassion leaves everyone feeling bad yet those comments slip by for the most part.I suppose saying a comment is mean-spirited could be seen as uncivil but they have been,there is no way around it. At any rate I'm taking a break anyway maybe I'll see the rules as less arbitrary after that.
I couldn't imagine having to carry the burden of making the kind of decisions you have to, and deal with the ramifications but I have to make sure I understand the regulations before I dare post again.
Gabbi
Posted by Mashogr8 on August 5, 2002, at 11:41:14
In reply to Re: inspire without putting down, posted by Dr. Bob on August 5, 2002, at 0:19:59
Dr. Bob,
Confronting authority and questioning their decisions is not something I am at all comfortable with, but, I'm not sure I understand the reason for the block either. I know it's your call.
I thought the point Phil was making was an important one: 'protest by leaving; stay-you have the potential to help' and definitely not a putdown.
I felt it was more a review of the loss of those who did leave (even for a time). I thought the statement was more a reflection of two things: 1. If you leave, we know longer have your perception of a situation or your advice. 2. If you stay, then you may make a difference.
In a way, the statement could be viewed as a call to those who left to return. We need their ideas, too. It might have been saying, "Make a difference by staying to those who have stayed by coming back."
>there is more than one road. (not exact words but the idea I received when I read it at first).
Actually I felt Phil's comment covered more than one road. I hopeds that those who were lurking would realize presence is much more helpful than their absence.
Geez, Phil mentioned earlier that he might be leaving. He's been around way too long, I would really miss his support and humor.
>can't quote cause it's gone but you said something to the effect that "you let it go too long".
When you say that you let it go on too long, is it possible that other past posts of Phil were on your mind? Should that be the case, then the blocking might be appropriate. Right now, I really don't understand. You're in charge, but maybe you could reduce the sentence to three days, please.MA
Posted by judy1 on August 5, 2002, at 13:00:49
In reply to Re: P.S. Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on August 5, 2002, at 6:36:33
Thought that would get everyone's attention :-)- 3 plus years of no PBCs or blocks is what I meant by virgin. I feel several of us (Dinal, Phil, me and the others you know who you are) have put a valient effort in trying to help others- I certainly have posted more in the last couple of months then I have in years. I feel like I turned the other cheek when hurt (and I WAS hurt by the poster who got the PBC), but I'm tired. I feel like one of the good people who does so much good here got slapped, and I guess I take it personally. So a break for me because I don't feel safe. Take care all- judy
Posted by tina on August 5, 2002, at 13:30:59
In reply to From a 'virgin' poster, posted by judy1 on August 5, 2002, at 13:00:49
seems to ME to be Dr Bob himself. Interesting.
I'm sure there are lots of people who will disagree but that's just the way it seems to ME
Please note the word "ME" in this post. *
*this post does not reflect the opinions of anyone else but MYSELF.
Posted by mair on August 5, 2002, at 16:02:59
In reply to Biggest reason people are leaving........, posted by tina on August 5, 2002, at 13:30:59
Far be it for me to defend Dr. Bob who's been mystifying one and all with his administrative decisions of late, but I don't think Phil's blocking was particularly surprising.
Where emotions are involved, people frequently hear what they want to hear and see what they want to see. Two people can look at the same set of facts and draw vastly different conclusions. I love some of the constructions that some have drawn of what Phil really "meant" to say, but even Dinah could see a slight "value judgment" in Phil's statement and I know when I first read it, I took it to be more than a slight value judgment about those to whom Alii was referring in her initial post.
If you look at Phil's statement entirely out of context, it seems pretty harmless. But viewed in the context of some on-going administrative disputes that Bob clearly would like to see end, Phil's statement certainly could be viewed as being critical. Add to that mix the fact that many of us have been quite critical of Bob for not intervening much sooner in potentially confrontational situations, and the fact that his trigger finger has been pretty quick lately.
I'm very sorry Phil got blocked because I appreciate his many contributions to this board (including that wonderful sense of humor) and realize that he's been trying to keep things going here in spite of the fact that he's apparently about to expire from a Texas sized heat stroke. Nonetheless, if you look at Alii's post and Phil's response in the context of what's been going on here over a longer period of time, Dr. Bob's decisions doesn't seem all that arbitrary.
Mair
Posted by mair on August 5, 2002, at 16:14:08
In reply to From a 'virgin' poster, posted by judy1 on August 5, 2002, at 13:00:49
Judy
I would hate to see you go under any circumstances because I think you many many wonderful contributions here. I fully appreciate, as I'm sure do many others, your need to have this Board feel particularly safe. I know you feel that Board safety becomes an evn bigger issue for you during times of unrest and controversy. I find that one of the best ways to steer clear of controversy is to stay off the Admin Board, and to concentrate my participation on Boards where I do feel safer. Sometimes this means that I avoid certain threads altogether.
Is this not an option for you? It would certainly be good if you did not find yourself in positions where you felt threatened and god knows, Admin has been a pretty contentious place lately.
Mair
Posted by Gabbi on August 5, 2002, at 16:21:24
In reply to What did you guys really expect?, posted by mair on August 5, 2002, at 16:02:59
Regardless of whether or not the first statement was a value judgement, in his Response to Kid A Phil didn't actually apologize, but did say that the fact Alii wasn't feeling good was more important than taking things personally I also apologized, it seemed that we'd already moved on.
Its hard to express this in type Mair, but it's meant Ponderously (is that even a word?)Its certainly not a position on what you' said I enjoy your posts.
And you've been around a lot longer than I have.
Gabbi
Posted by kiddo on August 7, 2002, at 1:50:40
In reply to Re: inspire without putting down, posted by Dr. Bob on August 5, 2002, at 0:19:59
You know, there's more than one road...
>Are we allowed to give *you* a PBC? I feel put down for that remark. That felt like a jab on this end.
Kiddo
Posted by judy1 on August 7, 2002, at 22:56:06
In reply to Re: From a 'virgin' poster » judy1, posted by mair on August 5, 2002, at 16:14:08
I agree with you Mair, I only came to this board because I was upset about Phil. But PSB is certainly a board I frequent, and the thread held names of people I respect and I still got hurt. So I guess I don't know the answers, but I know you understand when I say I'm unsafe- I truly am. I'm trying to work harder with my therapist so I don't use my old coping skills. I'm amazed I could be affected so deeply by a board on the internet. Take care and thank you- judy
This is the end of the thread.
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