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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 18 to 42 of 159. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on July 20, 2002, at 7:19:40
In reply to Re: Lou, posted by Dinah on July 20, 2002, at 7:16:22
As someone who was raised with a Christian background, attends a Christian church, but considers herself to have a Jewish view of theology for the most part and who has the utmost respect for the Jewish people.
Posted by Dinah on July 20, 2002, at 7:36:47
In reply to Re: Never mind. Do you mind if I say something Lou, posted by Dinah on July 20, 2002, at 7:19:40
Because I haven't the slightest grain of sense.
I am aware through my studies that a portion of the Jewish population considers these portions of the New Testament (and a few others as well) to be anti-jewish, because they have been historically used as an excuse to look down on and persecute the Jews.
I myself look at the history involved in the writing of the New Testament and see it as more pro-Roman rhetoric, since the writers of the New Testament wrote shortly after the final Jewish revolt when Jews were not looked kindly upon by the authorities. I see much of it as an attempt to distance themselves. And if I remember correctly, the order in which the gospels were written would give some support to that idea.
My point is that I know this because I have studied both Jewish literature and Christian history. I don't think most Christians have read both. So in the interests of peace and civility, perhaps it would be better to take a generous view of the intentions of other posters, rather than attributing the worst of motives to them. I'm quite certain that not only did Kiddo and Sandra Dee not have any intention of expressing anti-semitic sentiments, but that they were also completely unaware that the sentiments were considered anti-semitic by at least part of the Jewish population. (I haven't read ALL Jewish thought on the subject so I don't know how widespread the belief is.)
I understand that given the world history of Jews that you are vigilant to anti-semitism. But perhaps some understanding that no offense was intended is also in order.
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 20, 2002, at 8:08:39
In reply to Re: I'll say it anyway., posted by Dinah on July 20, 2002, at 7:36:47
Dinah,
Whatever someone's intentions here is when they post the type of rhetoric that I am objecting to, does not ligitamise their posts.
I can not know of their intentions. But I can not allow, in my conciance, these type of posts to go unanswered by me.
Now I have objected to others defaming Islamic people here also.
Lou
Posted by Dinah on July 20, 2002, at 8:14:50
In reply to Re: I'll say it anyway. » Dinah, posted by Lou Pilder on July 20, 2002, at 8:08:39
I understand Lou. And I know you equally protect other religions.
But perhaps you could instead express how it makes you feel, and take an educative approach as to the history of the use of the words and their impact on Judaism.
People get a bit defensive when they feel accused. Can you think of a way to educate while still recognizing that no offense was meant?
I'm sure it isn't past your capabilities. I've been quite impressed with your history in sales and your wittiness.
And while I am no fan of peace at all costs, I am a great fan of following your conscience in a way that preserves peace to the greatest of your abilities.
Posted by Dinah on July 20, 2002, at 8:38:03
In reply to Re: I'll say it anyway. » Lou Pilder, posted by Dinah on July 20, 2002, at 8:14:50
Wait. Maybe this should be moved to Faith....
It has more to do with Jesus's words than the administration of the site.
If you're interested in continuing this conversation there, let me know.
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 20, 2002, at 9:21:30
In reply to Re: I'll say it anyway. » Lou Pilder, posted by Dinah on July 20, 2002, at 8:14:50
Dinah,
I ,and Dr. Bob, showed our objection to the type of post in question. Now objecting to what someone has written is, to me, not being "accusitive". I am objecting to what was written, and I am not accusing anyone of being ant-Semitic. I am objecting to the written phrase, for they ,to me, cross the line to be anti-Semitic rhetoric. Now someone could say that what was written was not anti-Semitic rhetoric. But that only means that people disagree. And disagreeing is not being "accusitive". If no one could object without being labled as "accusitive", then we could never object.
Now if you want to say that when a person objects, that they are "accusitve", then , I believe, that that should be a separate thread on the administration board, not the faith board.
Your suggestion that I express how it makes me feel and take an educative approach is not, I believe, requiered by me on an internet board. I do not believe that I have an obligation to educate or tell how something makes me feel, but if I do, then I will do so. If you want to tell those how it could make one feel, and to educate them , then that could be a good thing for you to do on our own. And I would appreciate anyone's writing about that on this board.
Thanks,
Lou
Posted by Dinah on July 20, 2002, at 9:34:46
In reply to Re: I'll say it anyway. » Dinah, posted by Lou Pilder on July 20, 2002, at 9:21:30
Answer:
Someone who makes everyone on all sides angry. :)
I was just trying to think the best of everyone, and try to encourage a constructive conversation.
I tried. Carry on with what you were doing everyone.
The Dinah contingent has officially removed itself from the PB peace accord. Attempts at diplomacy will only be re-established at the request of both parties.
Henry Kissinger, where are you?
Posted by SandraDee on July 20, 2002, at 10:43:32
In reply to Re: Besides Lou...., posted by Dinah on July 20, 2002, at 8:38:03
I feel like part of this does involve admin, because we (well I am, and I think Kiddo is too) that we are just telling of our experiences and beliefs and we should be allowed to do that just as Lou has been allowed to tell his "experiences". I never, EVER said he didn't have these experiences, nor that his beliefs are wrong. I never said "Jews are bad" or anything like that. All I'm saying (and I think Kiddo is as well) is that we believe in the Bible. Old and New Testament, through and through. I won't go into all my beliefs here, for the sake of keeping this administrative. I have not rocked the boat by reading and responding to Lou. I just feel that if he's able to talk about his story/beliefs, anyone else can talk about theirs.
Furthermore, I am not against gays (I have a gay friend in-fact), alcoholics (I have many of those friends) and my list goes on. I do not shut people out because they are Jewish, gay or alcoholic. I sort of "shut my eyes" to Lou because I get frustrated conversing with him, so for ME that was the best thing to do. I'm not saying that is for everyone to do. I'm not on a "Block Lou forever" bandwagon. I'm just saying what seems to be working for me.
Posted by SandraDee on July 20, 2002, at 10:45:47
In reply to What is the definition of a diplomat?, posted by Dinah on July 20, 2002, at 9:34:46
Keep the peace :) You are a great person, and I appreciate you.
Posted by kiddo on July 20, 2002, at 10:54:52
In reply to Maybe on Faith and Admin. » Dinah, posted by SandraDee on July 20, 2002, at 10:43:32
Hiya SD-
Nothing was said by Lou until Dr Bob said something, then it became a free-for-all.
I'd like to know where Dr. Bob is now...I feel ganged upon, unsupported, accused, put-down. Where is he when I'd like/need a little support? I don't think it matters, I won't get any support.
Now Lou won't respond to my questions, which I feel are valid, even though I'm *supposed* to be anti-semitic...which I feel is exactly what his comments to me have become.
Would you kindly email me at leeandra@_DELETE_survivorscorner.com Just take out the underscore and delete....
Thanks-Kiddo
Posted by Dinah on July 20, 2002, at 10:57:46
In reply to Maybe on Faith and Admin. » Dinah, posted by SandraDee on July 20, 2002, at 10:43:32
Naw, Sandra.
The part I was trying to move to Faith was a discussion of the various categories of Jewish leaders, the Pharisees, Saducees, and scribes, and the historical context in which Jesus made remarks about them. And speculating on what he meant by those remarks.
I felt that discussion belonged on the Faith Board. Not the Admin board. But probably it belongs no where, because probably no one but me finds it fascinating. :)
And thanks. I grew up as the designated peacemaker in a warring family, and I tend to carry that with me.
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 20, 2002, at 11:02:46
In reply to Re: Maybe on Faith and Admin. » SandraDee, posted by kiddo on July 20, 2002, at 10:54:52
Kiddo,
Now I posted several responses to your posts on the faith board recently , and they were before Dr. Bob admonished you for the "wrong road" post.
Now my responses to your post were to clarify what you meant by "saved", water and spirit" and such. You have not responded to those posts. Now since I was in the process of responding to you, I believe that I was showing that I was going to continue to respond to your posts. And I still will. You understand that responing to an internet post is optionable. It is not mandatory.
Lou
Posted by Dinah on July 20, 2002, at 11:08:55
In reply to Re: Maybe on Faith and Admin. » SandraDee, posted by kiddo on July 20, 2002, at 10:54:52
Sorry you feel unsupported kiddo.
By my count you were supported on this thread alone by shar, greg, oddipus rex, and sandra. And whether you believe it or not, by me. I don't think for a moment that you are anti-semitic.
I have always valued our friendship and think very highly of you. And I always will.
Posted by kiddo on July 20, 2002, at 11:11:02
In reply to Lou's response to Kiddo's post » kiddo, posted by Lou Pilder on July 20, 2002, at 11:02:46
You understand that responing to an internet post is optionable. It is not mandatory.
> LouReally? I wasn't talking about those posts, I'm talking about the ones I responded to where you accuse me of being anti-semitic. Which I believe your comments are the same but against Christians instead.
Why didn't you have a problem with it before Dr. Bob said something?
Kiddo
Posted by kiddo on July 20, 2002, at 11:12:08
In reply to Re: Maybe on Faith and Admin. » kiddo, posted by Dinah on July 20, 2002, at 11:08:55
Posted by SandraDee on July 20, 2002, at 11:22:42
In reply to Re: Maybe on Faith and Admin. » SandraDee, posted by kiddo on July 20, 2002, at 10:54:52
And check your email :)
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 20, 2002, at 11:22:56
In reply to Re:Kiddos response to Lous response to Kiddos post » Lou Pilder, posted by kiddo on July 20, 2002, at 11:11:02
Kiddo,
I did have a "problem with it" before Dr. Bob flagged your post. You see, I am not through responding to your posts. I only have a limited time to answer posts here like evryone else.
Now your posts demand that I answer them comprehensivly. And those answers are being prepared. I will address your post on the Crown of Life, in referrence to your way of seeing it and how many other people see it differantly. I will address your post on being saved by water and spirit. I will address your post that Dr. Bob flagged in such comprehensive detail that it will take me a week!
Lou
Posted by Phil on July 20, 2002, at 11:39:02
In reply to Re: Maybe on Faith and Admin. » kiddo, posted by Dinah on July 20, 2002, at 11:08:55
Posted by OddipusRex on July 20, 2002, at 12:22:37
In reply to I support you. » kiddo, posted by SandraDee on July 20, 2002, at 11:22:42
> Me too in case I didn't make that clear. I don't know how to offer support really except I was so shocked last night and I think you are clearly not anti-semitic. I don't understand the rules here that's for sure but I thought you stated your beliefs clearly and without offense to any one. I like you. I hope your not too upset or hurt still. Maybe administrative support will arrive but even if it doesn't it's possible to accept someone else's rules and live with them without believing he is right. I hope you won't leave. As soon as I delurked a bunch of my favorite posters left. I haven't read a lot of religous posts I know you mostly as the book club lady. Well I offer you support again as much as possible this side of those parenthetical hugs-I'm on the shy side. Hope you have a good day.
Posted by mair on July 20, 2002, at 12:44:21
In reply to Re: I support you., posted by OddipusRex on July 20, 2002, at 12:22:37
I support kiddo. She's right, Lou never said a word about her post being accusatory until Bob cautioned her. More importantly, there was nothing inherently accusatory in kiddo's post, and if Lou really found it so he could have stated this so much more gently. However, I would be very offended and feel very "accused" if someone baldly called me an anti-semite.
Why such a double standard?
Mair
Posted by Phil on July 20, 2002, at 13:01:35
In reply to He shouldn't get away with this, posted by mair on July 20, 2002, at 12:44:21
Posted by Dinah on July 20, 2002, at 13:03:48
In reply to He shouldn't get away with this, posted by mair on July 20, 2002, at 12:44:21
As he usually is on weekends (and everyone always seems to know this, because.... well never mind).
Perhaps there could be a cease fire until he returns. Or at least a cease fire at accusing Dr. Bob of things he hasn't yet done.
I'm enjoying all the standard verbiage quite a bit and finding it all very informative. And I'm crediting Dr. Bob with the ego strength to get through it. But it doesn't feel quite sporting to start its use before he even returns. I'm sure everyone will get a chance to hand him the party line later.
By the way to be clear, I am only adding my comment to this post because it is the last one on the thread. I am not accusing Mair of anything and hold her in the highest regard.
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 20, 2002, at 13:06:20
In reply to He shouldn't get away with this, posted by mair on July 20, 2002, at 12:44:21
mair,
The rhetoric that Kiddo is posting has been used for 100s of years to arouse anti-Semitic feelings toward the jewish people. The thought that Kiddo posted about the pharisees being hypocrites is defaming to jewish people. The accusation that the pharisees attributed the casting out of devils by Beelzabub by the jesus that Kiddo is talking about has been used for 100s of years to foster the idea that the jews did not accept the claim that the jesus that Kiddo was referring to was sent by God. When all of Kiddos posts are tied together, it is inescapable that the conclusion is the the jews "are on the wrong road". Now Dr. Bob flaggd that post , and I think rightfully so. Now I am interested in your thought as to why Kiddo should be supported . No one is calling Kiddo an anti-Semite. I am just saying that the posts cross the line into he area of anti-Semitic rhetoric because they defame the jewish people by saying that the jews that do not attribute the casting out of devils ,by the jesus that Kiddo is referring to, to God , but to Beelzabub and that the calling of the pharisees as hypocrites is defaming to the jewish people.
Lou
Posted by kiddo on July 20, 2002, at 13:37:08
In reply to Re: I believe Dr. Bob is away, posted by Dinah on July 20, 2002, at 13:03:48
> As he usually is on weekends (and everyone always seems to know this, because.... well never mind).
>Don't know, just know he isn't *here.*
> Perhaps there could be a cease fire until he returns. Or at least a cease fire at accusing Dr. Bob of things he hasn't yet done.
Nothing I would love more, perhaps if someone could apologize for calling me anti-semitic and my posts as rhetoric...there was no need for that. I have a different belief, which I should be able to express without being accused of things. I don't know who's accusing Dr. Bob of what.>
> I'm enjoying all the standard verbiage quite a bit and finding it all very informative. And I'm crediting Dr. Bob with the ego strength to get through it. But it doesn't feel quite sporting to start its use before he even returns. I'm sure everyone will get a chance to hand him the party line later.
>I'm glad someone is enjoying themselves. Perhaps Dr. Bob will have the ego strength, but he isn't here at the moment. I apologize for this not being sporting enough for you, but I don't consider this a game. Better believe I'll inform him-I look at it as "take a number".
> By the way to be clear, I am only adding my comment to this post because it is the last one on the thread. I am not accusing Mair of anything and hold her in the highest regard.
I'm replying to your post...If you didn't mean it that way, I apologize in advance, but that's how I took it...
Kiddo
Posted by Dinah on July 20, 2002, at 13:50:45
In reply to Re: I believe Dr. Bob is away » Dinah, posted by kiddo on July 20, 2002, at 13:37:08
>
> I'm replying to your post...
>
> If you didn't mean it that way, I apologize in advance, but that's how I took it...
>
>
>
> KiddoNo I meant it that way. So no need to apologize. That is if you think I mean that Dr. Bob is away and hasn't yet responded to this thread. There have been a few sentiments expressed on this thread that would seem to be best expressed after Dr. Bob has had a chance to respond. And since Dr. Bob usually doesn't respond on weekends, no matter what holy heck is breaking loose here, I always assume he's out of town, or enjoying a well earned rest with his family.
However, I might be being a bit paranoid. Various posts lately have sounded like people have been sitting around at some location or other working themselves up into a frenzy of self righteous Bob-bashing. And using the same words over and over, as if they'd just attended a meeting of Recovery, Inc. and memorized the handbook. And if anyone mentions patriarchal male domination, I swear I'll scream. Now I fully admit to that possibly being incorrect. I do have problems with extrapolation sometimes. And if so I apologize.
I don't really see this as a game. I see it as a rotten shame. With the biggest casualties coming from those of us who detest conflict.
Perhaps you are angry with me over this. That is your right. Just as it is my right to always remember you with fondness.
Dinah Rose
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