![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 12 to 36 of 52. Go back in thread:
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 4, 2002, at 16:21:28
In reply to Lou - thanks for your post!! from kk, posted by krazy kat on July 3, 2002, at 22:47:08
Krazy Kat,
You asked me if "--you fight back?"
Krazy Kat, in my posts , I am always trying to be perfect. But I am human also. So are you and forgive me for I wasn't "fighting back" in any of my posts.
Your "adios again, Lou" was very kind and I hope to converse with you soon.
Remember me and I forgive you for any and all of your posts directed at me.
Lou
Posted by krazy kat on July 4, 2002, at 17:15:10
In reply to Lou's answer to Krazy Kat-more » krazy kat , posted by Lou Pilder on July 4, 2002, at 16:21:28
I was not brought up to have such horrific manners. I apologize.
I'm glad you forgive me because then you won't harbor unnecessary anger.
But keep in mind, this is the sort of reaction that can come from your "approach".
Bye.
Posted by Angel Girl on July 4, 2002, at 17:25:10
In reply to Re: blocked for week - SD? » Dr. Bob, posted by krazy kat on July 3, 2002, at 11:04:23
I have to agree with the protest here by krazy kat and IsoM in defence of SandraDee.
I have followed that thread and agree that Sandra was merely asking Lou for straightforward answers to her questions, to which she still hasn't got. She never asked Lou not to post. She did not resort to name calling and was never uncivil or disrespectful to Lou. All she wanted was simple straightforward answers to her questions.
What is so wrong with that???
I think you should reconsider your decision on the blocking of SandraDee. I think it was very unfair and a mistake, dare I say that for risk that I will be blocked next.
I have only been reading and posting to these boards for a few months but I have yet to see you admit to make a mistake and do undo a blocking. Nobody is perfect and we all make mistakes. I think that it would go alot further with posters if you could once admit to making a mistake, reconsider your decision and to retract the punishment. Otherwise you come across as being rigid and unfair. JMHO!!! I mean no disrespect but I think that blocking SandraDee was very uncalled for. I am usually one who stays away from controversy and confrontations but I can not choose to stay silent in this matter.
Angel Girl
Posted by Zo on July 4, 2002, at 19:09:37
In reply to Re: blocked for week - SD? -- Dr. Bob, posted by Angel Girl on July 4, 2002, at 17:25:10
. .. which is exactly why the policy doesn't work. For us. It works FOR BOB, and I guess you go along with his policies to the extent you believe that a site should work for the Admin--and the feedback of its members doesn't matter. And it is Bob's feeling that to allow the appeal blocks would be "opening a can of worms."What some of us are asking of Bob means genuine inconvenience for him.
Just putting that out on the table.
Zo
Posted by Angel Girl on July 4, 2002, at 20:14:36
In reply to It is against Bob's policy to reconsider blocks,, posted by Zo on July 4, 2002, at 19:09:37
ZoWhy would it be opening a can of worms??? Because if he would reconsider just once, it would set him up to reconsider every time somebody disagreed with a decision he makes???? And what inconvenience???? To take the couple of minutes it might take to unblock a person who was unfairly blocked??? PULEEZZZZZZZEEEEE!!!!
We are all humans, all humans make mistakes, including Dr Bob, although I have yet to see him to ever admit to one on this site.
I'm just asking that he admit that he made a mistake and correct it. Does he think he will lose the respect of the posters if he admits he made a mistake???? I think he loses more respect by never reconsidering his actions, admitting to making a mistake now and then and correcting his error. Nobody on the face of this earth, including Dr Bob are perfect and free of making errors. With all due respect, it shows maturity to recognize when you've made a mistake, admit it and then do whatever you can to correct it. JMHO!!!
Is that asking too much????
Angel Girl
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 4, 2002, at 21:58:28
In reply to I am sorry for attacking you » Lou Pilder, posted by krazy kat on July 4, 2002, at 17:15:10
Krazy Kat,
I appreciate your apology. I do realise that "this sort of reaction" can occur in anyone.
When I was a teacher, a student yelled out, (expletive), which was directed at me, in the classroom. Evryone stoped and turned around to see him. Not one sound could be heard for many minuets. Evryone was stunned.
The student spoke and said," I do not even know that I yelled that out." He was an honor student and we all could not beleive that he yelled that out. And neither could he!
The student then got up and walked out of the room. I learned that he went to the Principal's office and told him what had happenened and he asked to be suspended for 3 days. The Principal gave him the choice to stay in school because he had confessed and was remorsfull. But the student said, "No, I will take my suspension for I do not want to be treated in a special manner. I accept the responsibility for my actions.
The student was suspended and graduated Magna Cum Laude.
Lou
Posted by IsoM on July 4, 2002, at 22:51:21
In reply to Re: Thanks (nm) » IsoM, posted by ShelliR on July 4, 2002, at 15:49:29
Shelli, Angel, Zo, KK, Nikki, sweet dreamy Dr. Eamer, SandraDee (if she's still reading the boards), Beire-Dei, Emma, kiddo, Alii, Rach, Bookgurl, Judy, mouse, mist, Tina, Shar, Fi, Angel Girl, Jane, kid_A, Phil, Colin, Seamus, Ritch, Jon, Scott, & many others, thank you for the wonderful information, support, humour, & encouragement I've enjoyed here. And thank you to those who've defended the wrong blocking of SandraDee. My leaving isn't a big thing & will have no lasting repurcussions. I've been given help & information & hope I've given some back. Take care, folks. Smarminess wins in the end, it seems.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 4, 2002, at 23:47:39
In reply to Re: blocked for week - SD? » Dr. Bob, posted by krazy kat on July 3, 2002, at 11:04:23
[Posted by Reneb on July 3, 2002, at 20:19:37
In reply to http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20020527/msgs/280.html]
> I agree with IsoM and Krazy Kat. I think that SandrDee was very frustrated because she couldn't get a straight answer from Lou. I can't believe that Lou, who is constantly sharing his views to the frustration of many posters, is allowed to continue when it is very clear that he has in fact angered many, when told to "please stop". He continues to push his religious beliefs. Dr. Bob says "don't read them" well I think it's difficult not to read a response to your post.
>
> Dr.Bob, I have never disagreed with a block until now.
>
> Thanks for listening.
>
> Renee
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 5, 2002, at 0:43:11
In reply to totally disagree with you... » Dr. Bob, posted by IsoM on July 3, 2002, at 15:38:14
Sandra's blocking - a question for you... » Lou Pilder
Posted by IsoM on July 3, 2002, at 16:20:53
In reply to http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20020527/msgs/350.html> Lou, you know I don't discuss faith issues with you. That's our agreement, but that doesn't mean we don't respect each other's posts or attempts to help others. I'd like to ask if you're willing to help SandraDee.
>
> As you know, she's been blocked. I think you have difficulty unravelling various posts (I have difficulty in my weak areas too) so I'll list them for you.
>
> Beardy asks you not to respond to every post with a reference to your City of Peace:
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20020527/msgs/277.html
> & then her following post talks about proselytizing. You two amiably continue your discussion.
>
> Then SandraDee posts this:
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20020527/msgs/328.html
> She hasn't attacking you but was responding to Beardy's post & using the old subject line without changing it.
>
> Please also read my two posts at PB Admin:
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020627/msgs/5948.html
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020627/msgs/5953.html
>
> How do you feel, Lou? Were you feeling attacked by Sandra or were you hoping that the matter would be clarified & that you two could have a meaningful discussion? If you don't feel slighted or attacked & would rather carry on your conversation with Sandra, please let Dr. Bob know. I'm not trying to pressure you into appealing to Dr. Bob if you did feel attacked but somehow I don't think you took it that way.
>
> You know I rarely feel this strongly about something, but I think a mistake's been made. I'd hate to see Sandra, a relatively new poster, give up in frustration. What do you think?
>
> I don't want to enter into a long discussion but am just asking if you feel similarly, please let Dr. Bob know.----
Re: Sandra's blocking - a question for you... » IsoM
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 3, 2002, at 16:30:35
In reply to Sandra's blocking - a question for you... » Lou Pilder, posted by IsoM on July 3, 2002, at 16:20:53> KK,
> I know waht yor feelings are on this topic, and I always answer anyone's questions. And I will answer your question. And I think that there is merit in your concern here. For there are many religions that allow the victim to exonerate the accused. It is my undertanding that in Islam, a relative of a murdered person can veto the beheading of the convicted. (If any Islamic people reading this can correct me or substantiate me, please respond. Thanks in advance, Lou)
> but you must place your post on the Administratin board for this is in the administrative forum.
> Lou----
Correction:The previous post was asked by Iso M (nm)
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 3, 2002, at 16:35:27
In reply to Re: Sandra's blocking - a question for you... » IsoM, posted by Lou Pilder on July 3, 2002, at 16:30:35----
Re: Sandra's blocking - a question for you... » Lou Pilder
Posted by IsoM on July 3, 2002, at 16:36:27
In reply to Re: Sandra's blocking - a question for you... » IsoM, posted by Lou Pilder on July 3, 2002, at 16:30:35> Lou, this is IsoM, me, asking - not Krazy Kat in the previous post like you've thought. And I have placed this post on the PB Admin board. It's included in the links of the posts I've given you.
----
Re: Sandra's blocking - a question for you...
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 3, 2002, at 16:46:25
In reply to Re: Sandra's blocking - a question for you... » Lou Pilder, posted by IsoM on July 3, 2002, at 16:36:27> Iso M,
> I will return to the board this evening. Perhaps there will some input upon my return by others on your question for discussion. I like the question. But it is the adminastrative aspect of the board that decides those type of issues.
> Lou----
Re: Sandra's blocking - a question for you... » Lou Pilder
Posted by krazy kat on July 3, 2002, at 18:34:22
In reply to Re: Sandra's blocking - a question for you... » IsoM, posted by Lou Pilder on July 3, 2002, at 16:30:35> this was IsoM's ?, Lou, but one I had as well. You are absolutely right - it needs to be on admin, but you didn't seem to be there. :) So, if you like, please offer your opinions there to the thread already begun.
----
Re: Sandra's blocking - a question for you... » Lou Pilder
Posted by krazy kat on July 3, 2002, at 18:36:35
In reply to Re: Sandra's blocking - a question for you..., posted by Lou Pilder on July 3, 2002, at 16:46:25> sorry i restated what was already said.
>
> Lou, it is an admin decision, but (supposedly) our views mean something, so yours' would be important here.----
Fuck you, Lou, I am so Fuckin' sick of you...
Posted by krazy kat on July 3, 2002, at 23:05:49
In reply to Re: Sandra's blocking - a question for you... » Lou Pilder, posted by krazy kat on July 3, 2002, at 18:36:35> and this board. And I am not in any sort of "odd" mood stance. My finger hurts because it was stung by a wasp. And I am tired. But that's it.
>
> And this board has obviously become Lou's space for pulling folks into a cult.
>
> Fuck you, Lou. I have tried to work with you. I was here first. You have ruined it. Fuck you.
>
> - kk, no apologies tomorrow or the next from me -what the Hell you gain from this, I do not know...----
Lou'd reply to kk....
Posted by krazy kat on July 3, 2002, at 23:27:49
In reply to Fuck you, Lou, I am so Fuckin' sick of you..., posted by krazy kat on July 3, 2002, at 23:05:49> it's not what "I" gain from it but what you do...
>
> arrghhhh!!!!!
Posted by shar on July 5, 2002, at 2:07:58
In reply to Thanks and goodbye too..., posted by IsoM on July 4, 2002, at 22:51:21
There is so much of this that is the natural ebb and flow that occurs in groups. Especially groups that have an authority figure--like this one. Dynamics-wise (IMHO) it is very much like a family here. We can ask Dr. Bob (dad) to do things, to not do things, to reconsider things he's done already.....but it is a much Safer place than most of our homes would've been, and the Consequences of being told yes, no, maybe--well they are really pretty minor (as in, nobody will assault you, berate you, shame you, humiliate you, abuse you). Maybe someone will get annoyed or upset with another poster, but it is a great thing to learn how to handle that and accept that we don't have to change because someone else thinks we should, we can survive someone being annoyed with us....we can even continue to like them just fine.
Here, you voice your opinion and Dad does what he thinks is right. That's about the only option available to the person in authority. Disagreements (even strong ones) are accepted here, unlike in many homes (at least mine). Getting mad is ok, within certain boundaries. Being frank, same thing. Input can be given, too, which is also different than what many of us grew up with. We are accepted, by and large, as we are; there will always be posters that have rough patches with each other, and with Dr. Bob. But, just think how much freedom that is compared to everyday life (at least mine).
I want there to be a way for you to stay and get something for yourself here, even when you disagree with Bob or whomever. Maybe you think his decisions about blocking someone are wrong, and you can say so. Every time you feel that way, you can say so. AND you can continue to be here and give support and get support, and joke around, etc. Here we don't have to start at square one with somebody who knows nothing about depression or other dx, we can actually speak and be heard and often understood.
Being able to say frankly what we think is about as good as it gets in life, IMO. I certainly can't do it except in very few relationships I have. Expressing how we feel, what we believe, and who we are is not often safe, but it is safe here. What is the worst that can happen? You can be blocked, or get a PBC, but that's about as bad as it gets. In the meantime, you can be reaping the benefits of being with people who understand much about you in a way not many others can. AND you get to be accepting and understanding of others in that same way...something that I feel good about doing when I can.
The exodus only hurts us individuals. It doesn't effect change, and we miss out on having you here.
Well, like I said, I sure wish you wouldn't leave. Your feelings and opinions about how the board is run have been noted and paid attention to. You've been heard, by many of us. What more do we get in life but to be heard? For something that isn't under our direct control, that's about all we can expect (and do not often get even that much). Is there nothing here for you?
Shar
Posted by tabitha on July 5, 2002, at 3:26:16
In reply to Sure wish you wouldn't leave. » IsoM, posted by shar on July 5, 2002, at 2:07:58
Posted by Zo on July 5, 2002, at 6:43:44
In reply to Sure wish you wouldn't leave. » IsoM, posted by shar on July 5, 2002, at 2:07:58
I want to support those who feel comfortable with the ways things are presently run on the board---and I want to support those of us who do not.Perhaps you have to be forty, fifty, older. . and to have come into your own, to understand the conviction with which someone like myself or, if I may, Iso, have no *interest* in having a "dad," kindly or not. No *interest* in the boring sexual/power politics of *Control.* The whole guy thing. . it gets very, very old. Fast.
If it makes you feel secure to have an "authority figure" in charge, fine.
Please respect that women my age neither want nor appreciate one. it's offensive, it's stifling, and they tend to be dead wrong nearly *all* the time.
Bob is just a person. My pdoc to who I owe my life is just a person. I am just a person. You are just a person. If things can't proceed on that basis. . .something's wrong.
Forgive me if I've been naive.. . .but I thought everybody knew this stuff. I honestly did.
Zo
Posted by Phil on July 5, 2002, at 6:52:35
In reply to Sure wish you wouldn't leave. » IsoM, posted by shar on July 5, 2002, at 2:07:58
Posted by ShelliR on July 5, 2002, at 11:23:28
In reply to Thanks and goodbye too..., posted by IsoM on July 4, 2002, at 22:51:21
< My leaving isn't a big thing & will have no lasting repurcussions.>
Wrong. Your leaving *is* a big thing.I think that *everyone* has a part of themselves (sometimes larger than others) where they display irrationality. So this is Dr. Bob's area.
We are sometimes convinced that even if the everyone else sees the sky as blue,we see it as yellow. And nothing anyone can say will change our mind, or make us even consider that the sky is indeed blue. This posture is one of the reasons why so many of us go to therapy.
So Dr. Bob made a major error and because it is his board, we have to accept that. We also have to accept that the administration board serves more to vent and support each other, rather than actually to initiate or produce change.
But to leave because of it, well why?
There is so much good that happens on PB; so much wonderful insight that you contribute to this board. Way more than Dr. Bob's positions, which sometimes annoy us, sometimes really anger us, but generally don't impact what we believe.
And in the scheme of things at PB, Bob's irrational moves are not that often. Weigh the good against the bad. Every leader disappoints in some way, I believe. But I do think there would be chaos without intervention.
The bottom line is we want you to stay. Your tremendous contribution is part of you--no one else can contribute the same things in the same way.
Would you reconsider?
Shelli
Posted by mair on July 5, 2002, at 16:50:59
In reply to Re: Thanks and goodbye too... » IsoM, posted by ShelliR on July 5, 2002, at 11:23:28
IsoM
I've been too unsure of myself to post lately, but I do want to add that if you leave, I will miss your most responsible and moderating voice and I think the site will be much diminished by your absence. I hope you will reconsider.
Mair
Posted by janejj on July 5, 2002, at 17:14:06
In reply to Hell No Please Don't Go - IsoM, posted by mair on July 5, 2002, at 16:50:59
Isom,
Please don't leave the board, I always look forward to your responses and posts !!! Please, we'll be losing a very valuable member !! If you go, then I think I'll go too, it'll be a weird message board withour you !
Wow, i didn't know something like this could provoke such strong emotions in me! I feel very sad that I'll never know how you're doing etc.
If you really must go, then good luck and thankyou for all the sound advice you've given me and others over the last year !
Take Care
Janejj
Posted by Zo on July 5, 2002, at 17:43:57
In reply to it must be a serious issue, posted by krazy kat on July 3, 2002, at 15:56:31
> > > it's like a parent jumping in to "fix" any small dispute that their children may have that their kids would've straightened out by themselves without the parents getting all excited. - IsoM
Yes, and that's just a nuisance factor, to me. Gets in the way. The community tries to develop--if that's even the goal, here, I begin to think not--and it is constantly broken. . but primarily, egregiously, by Blocks.
>
>Or is it just that he's not checking the board at that time, and if he were, pbc's would be flying? I'd hate to think that's the case...But it IS the case, exactly. People don't know this? I guess I've asked alot of questions, on and offlist.
This is nearly the whole point: that all of this IS random. Bob must scan the posts, because he hasn't time to read them all, and chooses not to share or delegate that task.
Thus, the people he "catches" are caught. . .and another post as bad or worse gets overlooked.
These are the terms on which we are asked to participate with no complaint, or if we complain to "trust."
We are asked to just trust him, to treat us in ways we don't like---does this make any sense?
The site *is* crazy-making. With all this cognitive dissonance, disparities Bob *supports*. That's not his job.
Bob, trust is something one earns. . and when one does, it flows effortlessly. The site is crazy-making because your expectations are unrealistic and have all the hallmarks of abuse. Crazy-making is abusive, for that matter.
I say, Bob has no *business* doing that. I support Bob to be a more sensitive person.
I unconditionally support Bob to Do No Harm, and to make whatever changes are needed to make this happen.
Zo
Posted by mair on July 5, 2002, at 17:48:28
In reply to Re: Sure wish you wouldn't leave., posted by Zo on July 5, 2002, at 6:43:44
Zo
I think in zeroing in on Shar's family analogy, you missed what I took to be the larger point of her post - namely that you need to take a broader view of the benefits of the site and not allow yourself to be overwelmed by the ocassional injustice.
I think Bob made a mistake and is now compounding it by refusing to own up to it. But I don't think that means that the site is all about sexual male control politics or that the Board is no longer worth joining. I sometimes think our personal expectations for Bob are too high, and doomed to be unmet. I'm sure, Bob has a much more "macro" view of the Board than we do - individual posters and their sensitivities are just not going to be important to him other than in the most general way, because there are just too many of us and individual posters, even the best of them, inevitably come and go and are forever joined and replaced by others. I think his goal is to make the site as valuable as possible to the largest number of people and to accomplish this, his decisions and responses are going to be/seem impersonal, and we are going to feel depersonalized by them to some degree. If you're looking to be on equal footing with the moderator and to be able to engage in a free flowing exchange of ideas, this is not the place to be. I think Lini is right in observing that it is maybe unfortunate that there even is an Admin Board because it gives the misimpression that the moderator is willing to engage with us on a level that is probably pretty unrealistic.
I don't want to speak for Shar who speaks for herself very ably, but I'm guessing she might be both insulted and flattered to be thought of as too young to understand that having a male control figure is a bad thing - insulted because I don't think she was advocating for that, and flattered because I'm pretty sure she passed 40 well before this Board ever got off the ground. She's been here for as long as almost anyone has; she is, from my observation, no shrinking violet; I don't think she's been reticient to express her disatisfaction to Bob when she thought it appropriate, and she has, in my view, perhaps made the determination that the irritants remain only just irritants if you can find a way not to obsess about them, and that they are, over the long haul, outweighed by the benefits.
Mair
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 5, 2002, at 21:45:20
In reply to totally disagree with you... » Dr. Bob, posted by IsoM on July 3, 2002, at 15:38:14
Group,
The anger that I see on this thread toward Dr. Bob for his admonishment to SandraDee compels me to speak to the issue.
First, you must understand that this is not a one-person issue and that the nature of the offeding post demands that a determination by the administraion be made. The offending post can not be swept under the rug for to ignore it would be to allow a major concept to go unadressed and could allow others to post similar posts.
I will, next, tell what could be decerned by the post and its importance to address.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 5, 2002, at 22:03:39
In reply to Poster in the hands of an angry group. Part I » IsoM, posted by Lou Pilder on July 5, 2002, at 21:45:20
Group,
The overidng concern on this board is three things. First, its purpose is for education and then support and third, to provide a safe environment for those that come to this board for education and support. And there are a diverse and pluristic group of people here . And a diverse and pluristic group has many explosive propertys emeshed in it. It is like an inner city public school that is ovecrowded and without air conditioning, and it is hot. And there are many conflicts between the divere groups. I have taught in a school that the diverse student body was polarised with anger towards each other. It is these conflicts that give rise to well-reserched priciples of conduct that enable the pluristic groups to be, in a sense, in harmony. I will ,next, tell of the groups principles relavant to this discussion.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 5, 2002, at 22:15:03
In reply to Re: Poster in the hands of an angry group. Part 2, posted by Lou Pilder on July 5, 2002, at 22:03:39
Group,
In a pluristic and diverse group, there will be, first, a challnge for power and controll. Groups will form to intimidate and harrrass the other groups. These goups usually are , pitifully, formed by socio-economic status and more pitifully, racial and religious.
I will go on, next,
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 5, 2002, at 22:33:34
In reply to Re: Poster in the hands of an angry group. Part 3, posted by Lou Pilder on July 5, 2002, at 22:15:03
Group,
The groups use standard sadistic methods to controll the other groups in their vieing for power. Belittleing, ostrcism, bullying, grafiitti demening other other groups,racial and/or religious epithets, vandleism, assault, and ganging up on one person of the other group.
I have seen this in both ends of the continuim. I have seen a school that has fights daily, bomb-threats, vandleism, assaults, and all the rest. That school had a very poor administation that were appointed for doing favors to the powers to be. There was minimal learning and fear was stunting the students that wanted an education and a lot of them transferred to the perochial schools which were administered differently.
And I was a teacher in a well-administered school and there were no fights, no harrassment, and no fear and the students were able to learn.
Part 5, next,
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 5, 2002, at 22:44:33
In reply to Re: Poster in the hands of an angry group. Part 4, posted by Lou Pilder on July 5, 2002, at 22:33:34
Group,
Now one of the first things that the adminastration in the well-administerd school did was to , on the first day, have the students into the auditorium and address the students with what was expected in their behavior and they were given a pamphlet that also covered the expectations. There was no discussion for the expectations were, just that, expectations. The expectation tht students were to show respect to others, for instnce, was not negotiable or open to discussion.
Part 6, next
Lou
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 5, 2002, at 22:47:22
In reply to Redirected: Sandra's blocking, posted by Dr. Bob on July 5, 2002, at 0:43:11
> > > Also, she may have felt pressured with the continued "push" of the "city of gates". It gets very frustrating to swim through the thick mystery Lou has written about.
> >
> > No one has to to swim though anyone else's posts here.
>
> Well, no one has to post at all here, frankly... But it's a good site and good people do. And often we'll try to get through threads because there's something of value in there for us - it just may be hard to find.People may of course *choose* to swim through posts. But then that's their decision...
> perhaps Sandra did feel ... as if he were proselytizing. But now she can't defend her stance.
She can email me. And she may have felt as if he were proselytizing, but we had already discussed (and I had already decided) that.
> If we have to check and recheck the wording so carefully, how can a conversation go on at all?
I know rechecking can inhibit a conversation. But so can incivility.
> From my experience, changing subject lines is something that is difficult to remember and, as a new poster, something Sandra may not be aware of. Would another pbc for a newcomer have helped?
Maybe. There's always that possibility. But the current policy is one. Since it doesn't take much to get something started. Like in a really dry forest...
> Again, I worry that she'll get frustrated and not come back.
>
> - kkMe, too. I hope she does come back.
----
> What you're doing is censoring SandraDee, not for what she's saying, but for not changing the subject line instead.
I'm "censoring" her for what she said because she didn't change the subject line.
> And what "two wrongs" are you referring to?
Sorry, that wasn't very clear. What I was referring to was:
> > Beardy wasn't reprimanded by Dr. Bob, so I assumed her post was considered okay. But now SandraDee just clicked on Beardy's post & never bothered changing the subject line & she was blocked.
And what I meant was, even if Beardy "got away" with posting something, that wouldn't have made it right for SandraDee to post it, too.
> Can't you see that Sandra hasn't been putting Lou down? She hasn't been unsupportive but has been trying her best to clarify just what Lou's trying to say... She was feeling frustrated with asking, she wasn't attacking Lou or putting him down. Can't you see that?
Did I say she attacked him or put him down? I had already told her that I didn't think it was supportive to tell someone she didn't want to hear what they had to say:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20020527/msgs/302.html
IMO, frustration doesn't justify being unsupportive.
> I normally try to stay out of these sort of discussions because nothing productive happens but I find it really incredible that you've come down on Sandra for this... Honestly, it's like a parent jumping in to "fix" any small dispute that their children may have that their kids would've straightened out by themselves without the parents getting all excited.
I wasn't so sure this particular fire would go out by itself...
> have you ever admitted that you've made an mistake here? ... Personally, I have issues with people who can't say they're wrong from time to time & not feel ashamed or afraid to admit it. It doesn't belittle them but increases their stature in my eyes.
>
> IsoMI've decreased how long someone's been blocked, but I may never have just cancelled a block. But I dislike blocking people, so I don't unless I'm pretty convinced that I should. Now that doesn't mean that I'm necessarily "right". You may think I'm wrong. I may *be* wrong. I know I'm not perfect, etc....
I do appreciate your input, and I'm willing to discuss why I do what I do and to reconsider it, so feel free to try to point out something I'm not taking into account. Just remember that I'm already going to have given it some thought myself.
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> I have asked Dr. B.... if including phrases such as "in my opinion" could 'allow', well, almost anything to be said and he never responded...
>
> - kkSorry if I missed that. No, phrases like that do not allow almost anything to be said. Because I don't want almost anything to be said.
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> All she did was ask to know his feelings without 1000 word essay on his experience.
>
> NikkiDidn't we just have a long discussion here about how important it was for people to be able to express themselves the way they wanted?
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> It is against Bob's policy to reconsider blocks,
> which is exactly why the policy doesn't work. For us. It works FOR BOB, and I guess you go along with his policies to the extent you believe that a site should work for the Admin--and the feedback of its members doesn't matter. And it is Bob's feeling that to allow the appeal blocks would be "opening a can of worms."
>
> What some of us are asking of Bob means genuine inconvenience for him.
>
> ZoSee above regarding what is or isn't my policy. I do think there are lots of cans of worms, but did I say that about appealing blocks? The site needs to work for us both. If I just wanted it to be convenient for me, I would just let everything go.
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> Smarminess wins in the end, it seems.
>
> IsoMI hope you don't go, but if you stay, please be civil, thanks.
----
> Fuck you, Lou...
>
> krazy katSorry, but I've asked you before to be civil, so I'm going to block you for a week. But I hope you don't stay away.
Bob
Posted by Zo on July 5, 2002, at 23:46:11
In reply to Re: Sandra's blocking, posted by Dr. Bob on July 5, 2002, at 22:47:22
> I know rechecking can inhibit a conversation. But so can incivility.No one disagrees.
That is not all that is needed from any Admin.
Please be more sensiitive to the fact that group needs are, in any group, for the Admin to focus not just on civility.
Civility is essential--and it is, by nature, a quality you cancel out if you use methods ofpunishment.
You can teach it. But no one can learn if they're sent out of the room. The board does not presently have the rich and trusting atmosphere where people are *happy* to learn.
Is it possible, Bob, that you could step back a bit, show a bit more trust?
How long do you feel it's fair and reasonable for concerned board members to post to you, and concerned board members to leave, before you consider this a problem?
Zo
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