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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 48 to 72 of 129. Go back in thread:
Posted by allisonm on March 22, 2001, at 10:39:53
In reply to Re: advertising, posted by Dr. Bob on March 22, 2001, at 2:53:39
> >Well, as an experiment, I've added Amazon and iGive to this main page, what do you think?< <The flashing/changing message is a wee bit annoying, but it doesn't bother me too much. How much $$ do you think it might generate?
Allison
Posted by Lorraine on March 22, 2001, at 13:46:55
In reply to Re: advertising, posted by Dr. Bob on March 22, 2001, at 2:53:39
Bob: I threw out a lot of ideas in the last 3 emails that I sent. Maybe too many and I'd like for us to get a bit more focused before we go forward.
Let's define our goals. As I see them, they are:
First: to cover the cost of the site so that you are not out-of-pocket
Second: to reimburse you for the time you put in to administer the site--This is time you could otherwise be putting into your practice so this makes sense even in the non-profit context. (The site is also your "calling card" so to speak and hopefully enhances your reputation and client base.)
The approach that I would advocate would be (and this is in the order of ease):
First: Redesign the site (slightly) to:
1. Make the contribution solicitation more prominant
2. Make the affiliation with Amazon more prominent (Down the line we can add different affiliations that you feel comfortable with later after researching the available options and determining your comfort level. I would think you could do at least 2 and possibly 3 without seeming to be the huckster. (By the way, music IS a mood enhancer. And some people only achieve a full remission with a pet. LOL).
3. Create a page soliciting a sponsor.
Second: Explore moving the site to another host provider. (This is going to require a fair amount of research. I have created a spreadsheet of the potential host providers. My list ends up being different than yours. I'm not sure why, but you should take a look at the spreadsheet. If you give me your email address, I'll attach it. I assume I can't attach it through the site. Also you mentioned that you are concerned about this eating into your time. Is there anyway that others could help with this? Do we have any members who have an expertise in technology that could help either evaluate the potential hosts or help in the transition itself? Maybe you need a page on the site noting volunteer needs and soliciting them from the members? )
Third: Actively start seeking a sponsor for the site. (I'm not convinced you can't get an advertiser--look at Dr. Grohol's Psych Central--he has one. Do we know him well enough to ask how he went about this? Do we have anyone on the board with an expertise in media placement? A sponsor would be ideal because it would accomplish your goals without the crassness you so distain :-)
As I see it, this approach would increase revenues modestly from steps 1 and 2. Step 4 would lower your costs substantially so that the combined impact of steps 1,2 and 4 will be a break-even in terms of cash outflow. Covering the cost of your time on the site would be the icing on the cake covered by obtaining a sponsor.
Going the full non-profit route, incorporating, seeking IRS status, maintaining these filings, and using services like iGive I think would be a major undertaking. (It would take a lot of time and work before we know if it will work.) I know that I have vacillated on this, but it takes time for things to sink in and perculate towards a solution for me.
Tell me what you think of this approach.
Posted by Noa on March 22, 2001, at 17:22:25
In reply to Re: advertising, posted by Dr. Bob on March 22, 2001, at 2:53:39
I am slow sometimes, so I don't know how long it has been here, but I just noticed the amazon ad above. It isn't that intrusive. Did you have a say in what it would look like?
I wouldn't want to see a lot of ads, but so far it seems fine.
Posted by Lorraine on March 22, 2001, at 19:45:55
In reply to Re: advertising, posted by Noa on March 22, 2001, at 17:22:25
I think they both look fine and looking at iGive's requirements, its clear that you don't have to be a 501 tax corporation to use it. (I had assumed you did because I believe Guide Star requires it. Glad I was wrong.) Good for you for making the changes quickly. I might change the Amazon link for your books link, but then again, maybe not.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 22, 2001, at 22:43:54
In reply to Re: advertising, posted by Lorraine on March 22, 2001, at 19:45:55
> > Well, as an experiment, I've added Amazon and iGive to this main page, what do you think?
>
> The flashing/changing message is a wee bit annoying, but it doesn't bother me too much. How much $$ do you think it might generate?I'm ambivalent about the animation, too. Maybe I'll try something static, instead... I guess how much it generates depends on how many people sign up and how much they buy?
--------
> First: Redesign the site (slightly)
OK, we're kind of trying that out now...
> Second: Explore moving the site to another host provider. (I have created a spreadsheet of the potential host providers. My list ends up being different than yours. If you give me your email address, I'll attach it. Also you mentioned that you are concerned about this eating into your time. Is there anyway that others could help with this? Do we have any members who have an expertise in technology that could help either evaluate the potential hosts or help in the transition itself? Maybe you need a page on the site noting volunteer needs and soliciting them from the members? )
My list I got from specifying certain features and also adjusting them all to 800 MB. I thought my email address was everywhere :-) but here you go: dr-bob@uchicago.edu
I could ask more prominently for opinions regarding other web hosting services, but we might get what we pay for and saving money here would be a good thing, of course, but wouldn't address the other issue (my time).
> Third: Actively start seeking a sponsor for the site.
Someone else here and I have started thinking about foundation sponsors. Corporate ones? Who's John's sponsor?
> Going the full non-profit route, incorporating, seeking IRS status, maintaining these filings, and using services like iGive I think would be a major undertaking.
I agree, but it might be a good long-term investment...
--------
> I am slow sometimes, so I don't know how long it has been here, but I just noticed the amazon ad above. It isn't that intrusive. Did you have a say in what it would look like?
Just since yesterday. :-) It's not an ad that they're paying for, it's just a logo they offer people in their "associates" program.
--------
> I might change the Amazon link for your books link, but then again, maybe not.
You mean refer people somewhere else for books? Why? I was thinking just the opposite, that CDNOW would be redundant, since Amazon sells those, too. :-)
Bob
Posted by Lorraine on March 23, 2001, at 0:02:01
In reply to Re: advertising, posted by Dr. Bob on March 22, 2001, at 22:43:54
I've sent you the Excel spreadsheet on host providers. It's hard to talk about the differences in our lists--better for you to see them.
Who's John's sponsor?Colonize.com. ("Submit to receive your spree and occasional special offers from Colonize.com. Must be 13 years old and have read the terms and conditions. Our privacy statement outlines our strict guidelines.") Let me noodle around and see if any of the other analogous sites have sponsors. Who do you see as your "competitors"--those with analogous sites?
> I agree, but it might be a good long-term investment...
That's true. Perhaps the thing to do is to go step by step and add additional layers as you need them.
> > I might change the Amazon link for your books link, but then again, maybe not.I was referring to your books link at the top of the page--where you have book reviews that link to Amazon. It's just more subtle. But either way...
Re your time. No doubt it should be part of the plan. The bottom line is the bottom line. You get there by increasing revenues or decreasing costs. I'm suggesting we work both ends of the equation, if feasible.I'm out of town starting Monday for two weeks. So if I seem slow to respond during that period,....
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 23, 2001, at 23:29:57
In reply to Re: advertising, posted by Lorraine on March 23, 2001, at 0:02:01
> I've sent you the Excel spreadsheet on host providers. It's hard to talk about the differences in our lists--better for you to see them.
I bet it has to do with the selection criteria we each used...
> Who's John's sponsor?
>
> Colonize.com.Hmm, never heard of them. They go take over foreign countries, or what? :-)
> Who do you see as your "competitors"--those with analogous sites?
Good question, I don't know, I spend all my time here. What do you think? Babblers have mentioned Tapir, and isn't there a neuroscience board at Harvard?
> > > I might change the Amazon link for your books link, but then again, maybe not.
>
> I was referring to your books link at the top of the page--where you have book reviews that link to Amazon. It's just more subtle. But either way...Sorry, what about that books link at the top of the page?
> The bottom line is the bottom line. You get there by increasing revenues or decreasing costs. I'm suggesting we work both ends of the equation, if feasible.
OK, makes sense...
> I'm out of town starting Monday for two weeks. So if I seem slow to respond during that period,....
No problem, and have a nice break, and thanks for all your work so far!
Bob
Posted by Lorraine on March 24, 2001, at 14:06:50
In reply to Re: advertising, posted by Dr. Bob on March 23, 2001, at 23:29:57
Bob:
When I return from my vacation, I will put together a matrix of competitive or similar organizations and their sponsorships or advertising sources.
In the meantime, if you can review the grid on host providers and let me know your thoughts, we could start moving on the next phase of this--which would be to evaluate which sites look promising. It would be great if we could solicit another volunteer (hopefully with some expertise in that area) to help with the evaluation phase of the host provider part.
Another piece that you might consider is the extent to which you can lay off some of your time commitment to this site on others. For instance, if after reviewing the host providers list, it looks like we could substantially cut the cost of the site without compromising the service provided by the site or increasing the time demands on you, does it make sense to solicite some volunteers in the Chicago area (if location matters) to help with the transition (or is it more trouble than it's worth to use others?) Also, in the day to day administration of the site, are there tasks that you would feel comfortable using volunteers for?
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 24, 2001, at 17:27:35
In reply to Re: advertising, posted by Lorraine on March 24, 2001, at 14:06:50
> Another piece that you might consider is the extent to which you can lay off some of your time commitment to this site on others.
Ah, that might be an issue, I don't think I delegate very well...
> does it make sense to solicite some volunteers in the Chicago area (if location matters) to help with the transition (or is it more trouble than it's worth to use others?)
During this last (first) transition, I made a lot of internal changes that should make it much easier if there should ever be another one. Especially if it's planned!
> Also, in the day to day administration of the site, are there tasks that you would feel comfortable using volunteers for?
Good question. Removing messages that have been posted by mistake? Redirecting those that have been posted to the wrong board? Being the technical help desk? What else do I do?
Bob
Posted by Lorraine on March 24, 2001, at 19:45:03
In reply to Re: advertising, posted by Dr. Bob on March 24, 2001, at 17:27:35
{ Good question. Removing messages that have been posted by mistake? Redirecting those that have been posted to the wrong board? Being the technical help desk? What else do I do?}
One of your most important functions is to police the board and ask people to be civil and banish them from the kingdom if they cannot comply. I don't think that role is delegable tho.
Posted by pat123 on March 24, 2001, at 20:32:42
In reply to Re: advertising, posted by Lorraine on March 24, 2001, at 19:45:03
> One of your most important functions is to police the board and ask people to be civil and banish them from the kingdom if they cannot comply. I don't think that role is delegable tho.
I agree. I was a list owner for some lists 15 yrs
ago. Running a list takes time but I found it hard to remember everything I did to decide what I could farm out to the list assistants. So for one week I kept a list of everything I did. This really helped ID where my time was spent and what things only I could do and what others could help me with.Pat
Posted by allisonm on March 24, 2001, at 22:26:53
In reply to Re: advertising, posted by Lorraine on March 24, 2001, at 19:45:03
Hello all,
Bob suggested I bring this to the PBA board, so for what it's worth...
I have been looking into the chances of obtaining one or more grants from one or more foundations. I work at a university. While I work in public affairs, there are people who work in my office who do this kind of fund-raising for a living and they have been very helpful in making suggestions on soliciting grants. I began by going to the public library and searching their CD Rom database from the Foundation Center, a non-profit group that profiles foundations and tracks their giving histories.
I have gone through about a hundred different profiles and narrowed it down to maybe 30. From those, I narrowed it down to about 15 with the help of my friend in development. I am in the process of gathering information on how to apply for particular grants. Of the 15, 6 of the foundations that look most promising give to groups that are furthering treatment of mental health, or running mental health support groups, or are focused mostly on depression and only give to groups in Illinois or the Chicagoland area. Three others are nationally focused with giving directed toward mental health services, depression treatment/support/information. There are two that are very technology oriented (one phone company and one cell phone company) that give to health-related fields that make use of technology such as the internet to deliver their services. There are a couple that are very mental-health focused, but give to other demographic areas. It might be possible to convince these groups that PB serves those demographics.
I have discussed with Bob several things.
-- he needs money now to pay for the hosting.
-- he doesn't want hardware because maintainence is a big issue
-- being compensated somehow for the time he spends is important, as well as having funds for other costs such as conferencesI have discussed with my friend the feasibility of funding PB. We have talked about whether it would be better to apply for funding as an entity that is part of the University of Chicago or whether to apply as a separate non-profit entity. The upside of applying as a part of UC is that the university has a long history where PB has been in existence for a few years. On the other hand, the number of years that PB has been in existence is significant considering the newness of the medium.
We have discussed the possibility of starting an endowment that would generate interest that would pay for the hosting of the site and other expenses. However, if it were connected to the university, the money would always stay there no matter if Bob left the institution and took PB with him. If Bob were to form an independent 501(c)(3), he could keep monies in an account that could act as an endowment -- skimming just a small percentage of the interest every year. It also might be possible to raise enough money to act as an endowment, but have Bob keep it in a university account the way he does now. However, he might have to discuss this arrangement with the university. If he were to use this set-up, all of the monies would be at his disposal and if he ever chooses to leave the university, he could spend it down where a real endowment could not be touched or moved.
We calculated at one point how much endowment we would need to finance with 6% of the interest the current cost of hosting the site: we'd need $66,000. Some foundations give only to endowments; others say straight out that they don't fund endowments, capital campaigns, or annual funds. Some give money mostly for operating costs. However, few foundations are interested in giving money to a cause that's going to need it again next year. They want to see some tangible solution that an organization is working toward that will not require annual funding.
The lastest idea we have come up with is to solicit bridging money to pay for current hosting costs while we solicit donations from the PB community to build an endowment or a fund that would function as an endowment. We think it's important to show foundations that those using PB believe in it enough that they would be willing to help finance its continuance either through donations or through membership. Bob has been considering memberships for awhile. If we get bridging funds, it might give us enough of a relationship with a foundation to go back later and ask for money for the endowment/fund. Of course, we can solicit many foundations, tailoring our letter to fit their giving histories.
I have been pretty busy at work the last couple of weeks and have not gotten as far on writing letters as I had hoped. Also, Bob has given me a great list of the largest corporations in Chicagoland that I will investigate to see whether they have foundations connected to them and what the giving histories are.
That's where I am right now. Happy to discuss.
Allison
Posted by ShelliR on March 24, 2001, at 23:33:08
In reply to foundation grants, posted by allisonm on March 24, 2001, at 22:26:53
Hi Allison. Thanks for all the work you are putting into this. There's one thing (big thing) that I don't understand. Dr. Bob said it cost him $275 a month to pay hosting. So that's 3,300 per year. What is the $66,000 dollars referring to?
Sorry if this is a really dumb question, but I got lost. shelli
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 25, 2001, at 0:50:50
In reply to Re: advertising, posted by pat123 on March 24, 2001, at 20:32:42
> Running a list takes time but I found it hard to remember everything I did to decide what I could farm out to the list assistants. So for one week I kept a list of everything I did. This really helped ID where my time was spent and what things only I could do and what others could help me with.
And what was it others could help you with, do you remember?
Bob
Posted by stjames on March 25, 2001, at 1:34:34
In reply to Re: advertising, posted by Dr. Bob on March 22, 2001, at 2:53:39
That was interesting, thanks. I did a search, and for 800 MB, I found 25 less expensive services. Has anyone heard of any of these?
DommelNetsolutions ($22.00)
Superior Hosting
HostGenie
1-877-Site.Com
Saturn Services
Zapgold.com
Century-Host
< snip >
wantsomegetsome.net (!)
WestHost
Computer Solutions International
IIC Internet Services
Addr.com
Christian Site Hosting.com ($273.28)James here.....
OK. I will come out of deep lurkdom to give my .02
on this one. Presently Dr Bob is on Viero, they are my first choice, they are the best USA hosting people with their own backbone. This costs. So I like the idea of moving to a cheaper
host but not the cheapest. Take a look at http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/scams/bhcom.htm
The San Fernando Valley Folklore Society's
Urban Legends Reference Pages, the da facto plaace to go to debug internet bs. Their experiences with a cheapie hosting service are
true for most. At $22.00 they say you get unlimited bandwidth but they have to cram so many
sites on one server to make money it does not happen.I would like to help by doing an analysis on some of these providers. The new job has new toys, one of them runs every min. 24/7 checking a statewide network. There is no reason I cannot also get stats on these provides, over a weeks time. I can check to see if they are up and if services like http, ftp, and dns are up. With some other toys and can do random checks of the server load. The other consideration is how well connected the host is to the internet. Veiro rocks and you pay for it. They have their own backbone and are directly connected to mea-west and mea-east. It is easy to figure out who is better connected. It also helps to host in the country you serve the most pages to. Why make your pages cross the ocean to get to most viewers ?
So, would it be possible to cut that list down some ? Off the top of my head, the $50-100 range
is reasonable; this would offer big savings
and reasonable performance. I can also ask around
about these hosting services; I would also sugest
asking several people who host with the service what they think. Some stats that I did not see on your page that would be helpful to know are total hits and bandwidth (megabytes/gigabytes a month)
for the last 3 months. (if the all time high is not in the last 3 months, that number is helpful).So, if you would like, send me a list to work from. My e-mail addy is the same.
James
Posted by allisonm on March 25, 2001, at 7:31:39
In reply to Re: foundation grants » allisonm, posted by ShelliR on March 24, 2001, at 23:33:08
Hi Shelli,
There are no dumb questions. The $66,000 would be the base that Bob would use. Call it a nest egg instead of an endowment. The nest egg is put into an account and Bob uses PART of the interest from that account to pay for his hosting costs. At the university where I work, they don't usually spend more than 6% of the interest that comes off an endowment. The rest of the interest is folded back into the endowment so that it grows. Hence, the interest grows, so even if you keep taking 6%, say, the 6% over time becomes a larger sum too. Does that make sense?Allison
Posted by allisonm on March 25, 2001, at 7:38:17
In reply to Re: advertising, posted by stjames on March 25, 2001, at 1:34:34
James,
This is SO cool! Thank you!
I won't say "welcome back" because I don't know what your plans are. Please know that I'm really glad to see your post.
Sincerely,
Allison
Posted by Lorraine on March 25, 2001, at 11:18:31
In reply to Re: advertising, posted by stjames on March 25, 2001, at 1:34:34
James: I would like to email you the spreadsheet that I did on the different low budget host providers, but I don't know your email address. My list came out different than Bob's--though I'm not sure why. One reason may be that he only included site offering 800 MG while I included site offering less if the additional charge for more space seemed reasonable. I'm leaving on vacation tonight (at midnight) and would like to send this to you before I go.
I checked out TaPir by the way and their server costs are $1100 a year--I wonder who they are using? http://www.algy.com/anxiety/VOTE/tf2001.html
Posted by Lorraine on March 25, 2001, at 11:20:28
In reply to Re: foundation grants -- Shelli, posted by allisonm on March 25, 2001, at 7:31:39
> Allison: This is great work!
Posted by Lorraine on March 25, 2001, at 11:23:03
In reply to Re: advertising, posted by Lorraine on March 24, 2001, at 19:45:03
> Take a look at TaPir's site info:
Server Costs: $1100
Total Costs: $1500They have an annual giving drive to support these costs
Posted by pat123 on March 25, 2001, at 12:09:55
In reply to Re: what others could help me with, posted by Dr. Bob on March 25, 2001, at 0:50:50
> And what was it others could help you with, do you remember?
>
> BobAnswering e-mail, questions, questions, questions
from list people. This was a list serv to there were unsub/sub problems and bounced mail. I let the list assistants remind folks about the subjects we did not dscuss, per the FAQ, this was a constant battle as we did not discuss religion. converting docs to HTML and doing basic web work. It was nice to have a group of people who I could ger support from and bounce ideas off of. I could leave the list in their hands and take a holiday.
\Pat
Posted by Cam W. on March 25, 2001, at 12:42:43
In reply to Re: advertising, posted by stjames on March 25, 2001, at 1:34:34
Welcome back, dude!
Posted by stjames on March 25, 2001, at 12:50:57
In reply to Re: advertising James, posted by Lorraine on March 25, 2001, at 11:18:31
> James: I would like to email you the spreadsheet that I did on the different low budget host providers, but I don't know your email address.
Send the list if you would like. I do not have time to research long lists, as I said if I can get a shorter list I will be glad to research. I cannot decide if a hosting service meets dr bobs needs, I don't know his needs and stats. Once I get a list of hosts dr bob (or whoever) wants me to research I can start but work is not going to be happy if I spent too much time using their equipment, time they pay me for, and bandwidth they pay for looking at lots of hosts. Please review what snopes has to say about cheap hosts.
James
Posted by ShelliR on March 25, 2001, at 13:23:01
In reply to Re: foundation grants -- Shelli, posted by allisonm on March 25, 2001, at 7:31:39
Thanks Allison. Yes, it does make sense. I'm used to gov't research grants and they are totally spelled out for you in terms of how the money gets spent and how long the contract is. This is much better. Shelli
Posted by Lorraine on March 25, 2001, at 16:25:34
In reply to Re: advertising James, posted by stjames on March 25, 2001, at 12:50:57
{Send the list if you would like. I do not have time to research long lists, as I said if I can get a shorter list I will be glad to research.}
James: I'm leaving on vacation tonight at midnight so I can't really do anymore on this until I am back. I wonder if there is someone on the board who can "eye-ball" the list (which has 23 vendors on it) and say ok let's look at these 5. At any rate, better for you to have the list than not and if it doesn't more while I'm on vacation then I can turn my attention to trying to narrow it down to a more manageable list. I'm not the best person for the job as I have no expertise here, but to a certain extent research is research. I'll be back in two weeks. Meanwhile, I'll send you the list so you have it.
{I cannot decide if a hosting service meets dr bobs needs, I don't know his needs and stats. }
I've emailed the list to dr. bob as well with all the footnotes indicating the services provided. Perhaps he can take a look at the list first and weed out those that don't meet his needs.
Once I get a list of hosts dr bob (or whoever) wants me to research I can start but work is not going to be happy if I spent too much time using their equipment, time they pay me for, and bandwidth they pay for looking at lots of hosts.
I hear you. I have time but no expertise. I'll be back in two weeks.
{Please review what snopes has to say about cheap hosts.}
I'll be happy to do this when I get back. If someone else with more experience in host providers on the board is willing to jump into the frey in my absence, that would be great. (They could get the list from you or dr. bob.).
>
>
>
> James
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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