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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 26. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Jay2112 on March 5, 2022, at 20:34:41
Well, after a 15 or so year break from T therapy, my testosterone levels are quite low. I REALLY need some help and encouragement, as we all do. Last time, I used Androgel for about 3 years, daily. After about 4 months on the Androgel, for the first time, ever, I experienced complete mental and physical remission from all my symptoms of bipolar II. It was not mania, but a peace, a feeling of deep contentment. I went off most psych drugs all together. THEN...3 major life crisis: I lost a precious, amazing paying job; my Mom had a massive stroke, and languished and died within 5 months...that left me to care for, my dying Dad. My Dad died a year later. I was the power of attorney for both, and I went through stress and mental HELL I never had imagined. My brother refused to help for care; my sister hated me, and also refused to help. My Dad died, I had no job, and despite a zillion resumes, struggled for now, about 8 years, on mostly, gov't disability.
Ok...so forward to today. I am 52. My last blood test showed my T levels very low. My depression, anxiety at full force. My life...a complete mess, using amphetamines to get me through the day, AP's and AD's to sleep. NO life. So, enter the T, and I have been on it for about a few weeks now. Like the last time, I AM actually being able to stay fully awake past 5pm, and as with T therapy, T helps sleep, as well.
So, I am crossing my fingers, putting every damn thing into this. BUT, I want to go to an endocrinologist, to intersect my T levels with my diabetes, type II, check my prolactin, and see if I have any problems with my LH and FSH levels, pituitary function, and HGH levels. Supplementing with Human Growth Hormone has been found to provide a further robust T replacement therapy.
There is still a lot I don't know about endocrinology, but I do know the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis (HPA) IS the 'mother' of bodily functions that seems to get all messed up in mental illness. I am NOT saying this is the case for EVERYBODY, but is def something we should all get checked out. If your hormones and HPA are all f*cked up, you DON'T have to live with that. Especially for us 'older' folks...but this started with me when I was about 37. I DEMANDED all sorts of tests, and possible treatments, most of what I got. But, then, life...well...got in the way of living, and here I am, again. But, I am going ALL the way, because my mind is sharp as ever, and I am going to (try) to make my body fall in tune.
Anyhow....comments/remarks/feedback, VERY gratefully accepted. Remember, I am NOT THERE, whatever that is, yet....but the goin get goin...to start..lol.
Jay
Posted by Lamdage22 on March 6, 2022, at 2:06:03
In reply to Testosterone sollution complete/partial remission?, posted by Jay2112 on March 5, 2022, at 20:34:41
I have been saying this, no one believed me.
Posted by undopaminergic on March 6, 2022, at 8:06:20
In reply to Re: Testosterone sollution complete/partial remission?, posted by Lamdage22 on March 6, 2022, at 2:06:03
> I have been saying this, no one believed me.
What, exactly?
-undopaminergic
Posted by undopaminergic on March 6, 2022, at 8:06:37
In reply to Re: Testosterone sollution complete/partial remission?, posted by Lamdage22 on March 6, 2022, at 2:06:03
> I have been saying this, no one believed me.
What, exactly?
-undopaminergic
Posted by undopaminergic on March 6, 2022, at 8:10:13
In reply to Testosterone sollution complete/partial remission?, posted by Jay2112 on March 5, 2022, at 20:34:41
The possible HPA axis dysfunction was one of the reasons I started trimipramine. It reduces cortisol levels, and when it starts to wear off, the cortisol rises again. I take most of the dose at night, in an attempt to normalise the cortisol concentration curve.
-undopaminergic
Posted by Jay2112 on March 6, 2022, at 10:17:41
In reply to Re: Testosterone sollution complete/partial remission?, posted by undopaminergic on March 6, 2022, at 8:10:13
> The possible HPA axis dysfunction was one of the reasons I started trimipramine. It reduces cortisol levels, and when it starts to wear off, the cortisol rises again. I take most of the dose at night, in an attempt to normalise the cortisol concentration curve.
>
> -undopaminergic
>Hi UD:
Yes, I have tried trimipamine a few times, and seemed really good for sleep. Now, it has no AP qualities, correct? But it did feel a bit like say, a small dose of seroquel, Interesting....
Jay
Posted by Lamdage22 on March 6, 2022, at 10:55:22
In reply to Re: Testosterone sollution complete/partial remission?, posted by undopaminergic on March 6, 2022, at 8:06:20
> > I have been saying this, no one believed me.
>
> What, exactly?
>
> -undopaminergic
>I have been saying to get Testosteron checked, as a deficiency will cause psychiatric symptoms.
Posted by Lamdage22 on March 6, 2022, at 10:56:36
In reply to Re: Testosterone sollution complete/partial remission?, posted by Lamdage22 on March 6, 2022, at 10:55:22
What I found is that you shouldn't go low fat. It can cause low Testosterone. Mine is in the middle of the reference range now. I was eating low fat, mostly out of laziness. Now that I get adequate fat all is fine.
Posted by SLS on March 6, 2022, at 11:14:47
In reply to Re: Testosterone sollution complete/partial remission?, posted by Lamdage22 on March 6, 2022, at 10:56:36
Hi.
If there is any one hormone that should be checked, it would be thyroid.
In the 1980s, Cytomel (T3 / triiodothyronine) was frequently used as an augmenter in the treatment of depression.
For me, T3 made my depression (bipolar) MUCH worse
For me, T4 helped - just not enough.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on March 6, 2022, at 11:24:49
In reply to Re: Testosterone sollution complete/partial remission?, posted by SLS on March 6, 2022, at 11:14:47
Scott absolutely agree with you. Find a good endocrinologist. Don't try to treat alone. The message is to Jay. Phillipa
Posted by undopaminergic on March 6, 2022, at 11:31:42
In reply to Re: Testosterone sollution complete/partial remission? » undopaminergic, posted by Jay2112 on March 6, 2022, at 10:17:41
> > The possible HPA axis dysfunction was one of the reasons I started trimipramine. It reduces cortisol levels, and when it starts to wear off, the cortisol rises again. I take most of the dose at night, in an attempt to normalise the cortisol concentration curve.
> >
> > -undopaminergic
> >
>
> Hi UD:
>
> Yes, I have tried trimipamine a few times, and seemed really good for sleep. Now, it has no AP qualities, correct? But it did feel a bit like say, a small dose of seroquel, Interesting....
>
> JayTrimipramine has substantial antipsychotic properties. I recall reading about a German trial, where many psychotic patients could be discharged from hospital with trimipramine as their only antipsychotic.
-undopaminergic
Posted by Jay2112 on March 6, 2022, at 19:53:55
In reply to Re: Testosterone sollution complete/partial remission?, posted by Lamdage22 on March 6, 2022, at 10:56:36
> What I found is that you shouldn't go low fat. It can cause low Testosterone. Mine is in the middle of the reference range now. I was eating low fat, mostly out of laziness. Now that I get adequate fat all is fine.
Did you take supplemental T? Like androgel, shots, or the pill?
Thanks,
Jay
Posted by Jay2112 on March 6, 2022, at 20:02:00
In reply to Re: Testosterone sollution complete/partial remission?, posted by SLS on March 6, 2022, at 11:14:47
> Hi.
>
> If there is any one hormone that should be checked, it would be thyroid.
>
> In the 1980s, Cytomel (T3 / triiodothyronine) was frequently used as an augmenter in the treatment of depression.
>
> For me, T3 made my depression (bipolar) MUCH worse
>
> For me, T4 helped - just not enough.
>
>
> - ScottFunny, T3 did the exact same thing! I haven't really done much T4, but it was no where near as bad as cytomel! T3.
A few reasons I look at testosterone...one, being, is that women need a nudge of this stuff too, and it can really ummm..perk them up..lol. Just, not too much, of course.
But psych meds really suppress testosterone levels. Even in low-normal conditions, it can be devastating to overall physical and mental health.
Jay
Posted by Jay2112 on March 6, 2022, at 20:05:36
In reply to Re: Testosterone sollution complete/partial remission? » SLS, posted by Phillipa on March 6, 2022, at 11:24:49
> Scott absolutely agree with you. Find a good endocrinologist. Don't try to treat alone. The message is to Jay. Phillipa
Hi Phillipa. Yes, we are now in search of a good endocrinologist. I let the treatment, and the endo, go last time. I now realize this is a lifetime thing. Nice to hear from you Phillipa!
Jay :)
Posted by Jay2112 on March 6, 2022, at 20:07:45
In reply to Re: Testosterone sollution complete/partial remission? » Jay2112, posted by undopaminergic on March 6, 2022, at 11:31:42
> > > The possible HPA axis dysfunction was one of the reasons I started trimipramine. It reduces cortisol levels, and when it starts to wear off, the cortisol rises again. I take most of the dose at night, in an attempt to normalise the cortisol concentration curve.
> > >
> > > -undopaminergic
> > >
> >
> > Hi UD:
> >
> > Yes, I have tried trimipamine a few times, and seemed really good for sleep. Now, it has no AP qualities, correct? But it did feel a bit like say, a small dose of seroquel, Interesting....
> >
> > Jay
>
> Trimipramine has substantial antipsychotic properties. I recall reading about a German trial, where many psychotic patients could be discharged from hospital with trimipramine as their only antipsychotic.
>
> -undopaminergicI will keep that in mind, if/when I search for a new med. Thanks!
Jay
Posted by Phillipa on March 6, 2022, at 22:05:50
In reply to Re: Testosterone sollution complete/partial remission? » Phillipa, posted by Jay2112 on March 6, 2022, at 20:05:36
Jay it's been awhile. Hope life is treating you well. Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on March 6, 2022, at 22:06:04
In reply to Re: Testosterone sollution complete/partial remission? » Phillipa, posted by Jay2112 on March 6, 2022, at 20:05:36
Jay it's been awhile. Hope life is treating you well. Phillipa
Posted by Lamdage22 on March 7, 2022, at 1:41:26
In reply to Re: Testosterone sollution complete/partial remission? » Lamdage22, posted by Jay2112 on March 6, 2022, at 19:53:55
> > What I found is that you shouldn't go low fat. It can cause low Testosterone. Mine is in the middle of the reference range now. I was eating low fat, mostly out of laziness. Now that I get adequate fat all is fine.
>
> Did you take supplemental T? Like androgel, shots, or the pill?
>
> Thanks,
> JayNo I didn't take anything. What I did is I lowered my Iodine and Selenium dose. I took too much and it slowed down my thyroid I think. And I increased my fat intake. Algae Oil, Hemp Oil, Olive oil, butter and whole milk. Low fat diet is a scam by the sugar lobby. The only thing you have to avoid is trans-fats.
Posted by Lamdage22 on March 7, 2022, at 1:43:11
In reply to Re: Testosterone sollution complete/partial remission?, posted by Lamdage22 on March 7, 2022, at 1:41:26
My T was on the low end and now it is in the middle of the reference range. If I can shed my overweight, which I try, it may go up more. And the Metformin I take doesn't help either. But I am going to keep it for now. I need it to help with sugar cravings.
Posted by SLS on March 7, 2022, at 6:22:20
In reply to Re: Testosterone sollution complete/partial remission? » Jay2112, posted by undopaminergic on March 6, 2022, at 11:31:42
Hi, UD.
> > > The possible HPA axis dysfunction was one of the reasons I started trimipramine. It reduces cortisol levels, and when it starts to wear off, the cortisol rises again. I take most of the dose at night, in an attempt to normalise the cortisol concentration curve.
That's a really interesting strategy. I didn't know that about trimipramine.
What's your best guess as to why trimipramine has value as an antidepressant? What mechanisms do you think might be involved?/
> Trimipramine has substantial antipsychotic properties. I recall reading about a German trial, where many psychotic patients could be discharged from hospital with trimipramine as their only antipsychotic.
I've been away too long. I never heard of that. That should be taught in every medical school.
- Scott
Posted by undopaminergic on March 7, 2022, at 16:31:20
In reply to Re: Testosterone sollution complete/partial remission? » undopaminergic, posted by SLS on March 7, 2022, at 6:22:20
> Hi, UD.
>Hi, SLS.
> > > > The possible HPA axis dysfunction was one of the reasons I started trimipramine. It reduces cortisol levels, and when it starts to wear off, the cortisol rises again. I take most of the dose at night, in an attempt to normalise the cortisol concentration curve.
>
> That's a really interesting strategy. I didn't know that about trimipramine.
>
> What's your best guess as to why trimipramine has value as an antidepressant? What mechanisms do you think might be involved?/
>The histamine H1-receptor antagonism is of course somewhat useful for sleep. The serotonin 5-HT2A-receptor antagonism may somewhat increase dopamine release in the prefrontal cortex. However, a particularly unusual effect of trimipramine, and apparently unique in an antidepressant, is the histamine H2-receptor antagonism. Famotidine, a selective H2-antagonist, has shown promise in the treatment of the negative (aka. deficit) symptoms of schizophrenia:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1188579/
which is relevant because these symptoms overlap a great deal with depression.I have unsuccessfully tried to elicit feedback (any comment) here on the histamine H2-antagonism. So, I have to say it is only my hunch that this effect is highly significant in the antidepressant mechanism of action of trimipramine.
-undopaminergic
Posted by Jay2112 on March 8, 2022, at 13:58:48
In reply to Re: Testosterone sollution complete/partial remission? » SLS, posted by undopaminergic on March 7, 2022, at 16:31:20
> I have unsuccessfully tried to elicit feedback (any comment) here on the histamine H2-antagonism. So, I have to say it is only my hunch that this effect is highly significant in the antidepressant mechanism of action of trimipramine.
>
> -undopaminergic
>One antihistamine I have used for dizziness, betahistine, works on the H3 receptor, as an antagonist, and an H1 agonist. It apparently has weak affinity for H2 as a partial antagonist.
Jay
Posted by Lamdage22 on March 9, 2022, at 3:06:04
In reply to Re: Testosterone sollution complete/partial remission? » undopaminergic, posted by Jay2112 on March 8, 2022, at 13:58:48
Did it shut down your own production? You say you took it and then paused. What was your free T value, if you don't mind? And what is it now with TRT?
Posted by Jay2112 on March 13, 2022, at 14:20:26
In reply to Re: Testosterone sollution complete/partial remission?, posted by Lamdage22 on March 9, 2022, at 3:06:04
> Did it shut down your own production? You say you took it and then paused. What was your free T value, if you don't mind? And what is it now with TRT?
Sorry for the lag in response...I just found your post up here now.
When I first took T (14 or so years ago)..it was a bit bizarre. It took about 2 or so months to get the 'sex' effect, but after a month I was feeling pretty good. The first month, it over-flowed my total T (as it first mixes in with your own....but after it shuts down/replaces it).
Are you on T replacement?
Jay
Posted by Lamdage22 on March 13, 2022, at 21:31:55
In reply to Re: Testosterone sollution complete/partial remission? » Lamdage22, posted by Jay2112 on March 13, 2022, at 14:20:26
I was considering it, however with some changes, my T has gone to the middle of the reference range. I was taking too much Iodine and Selenium which slowed my thyroid, ontop of that I wasn't consuming enough fat calories. The body needs fat to build Testostoerone. Fixing these fixed my T level.
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