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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by linkadge on January 12, 2020, at 16:37:47
I have known for a while that after eating spicy foods I have relief in my depression symptoms (especially apathy, rumination and emotional overtone).
So apparently capsaicin does appear to have antidepressant effects (at least in mice):
Linakdge
Posted by linkadge on January 12, 2020, at 16:39:58
In reply to I knew spicy foods helped my depression, posted by linkadge on January 12, 2020, at 16:37:47
Like many components of marijunna, capsaicin activates the TRPV1 channels. TRPV1 receptors regulate pain and are present in the limbic system. They may also have anticonvulsant effects.
Linkadge
Posted by sigismund on January 12, 2020, at 17:09:08
In reply to TRPV1 agonist, posted by linkadge on January 12, 2020, at 16:39:58
Years ago on the Alternative board there were discussions about capsaicin diminishing fear.
Posted by rjlockhart37 on January 12, 2020, at 21:28:50
In reply to I knew spicy foods helped my depression, posted by linkadge on January 12, 2020, at 16:37:47
cajun foods, and really spicy with real herbs that make it sizzling, it makes my eyes water eating it, after eating a really spicy dinner, actually sometimes a bit too spicy, like with chili peppers, and jalapenos, and red pepper, eating too spicy but it gives sizzle in the mouth, and it changes the mood by tongue reaction, having a sting hot to it. It definitely alters neurotransmitters. It that 'intense' sizzle sting that sends transmission to brain, i guess to increase neurotransmitters for a while. But not study has found that
Posted by rjlockhart37 on January 12, 2020, at 21:30:23
In reply to Re: I knew spicy foods helped my depression, posted by rjlockhart37 on January 12, 2020, at 21:28:50
plus spice herbs can help depression while their in the blood system
Posted by undopaminergic on January 13, 2020, at 3:06:55
In reply to I knew spicy foods helped my depression, posted by linkadge on January 12, 2020, at 16:37:47
> I have known for a while that after eating spicy foods I have relief in my depression symptoms (especially apathy, rumination and emotional overtone).
>
> So apparently capsaicin does appear to have antidepressant effects (at least in mice):
>
> https://www.psypost.org/2018/10/capsaicin-from-chili-peppers-found-to-produce-antidepressant-like-effects-in-rats-52322
>Chili is a bit too spicy for me, except in minor concentrations. Putting capsaicin in capsules would get around that problem, although I wouldn't expect it to work.
-undopaminergic
Posted by linkadge on January 13, 2020, at 15:16:56
In reply to Re: I knew spicy foods helped my depression, posted by rjlockhart37 on January 12, 2020, at 21:28:50
>But no study has found that
Not in humans. However, capsaicin is a TRPV1 agonist (an new target for pain and depression).
Linkadge
Posted by phidippus on January 15, 2020, at 18:23:42
In reply to I knew spicy foods helped my depression, posted by linkadge on January 12, 2020, at 16:37:47
Oh, come on! (Rolls eyes)
The main limitations of our current study is that it was performed in rodents - Javier Francisco Alamilla Gonzalez
Posted by linkadge on January 16, 2020, at 15:24:43
In reply to Re: I knew spicy foods helped my depression » linkadge, posted by phidippus on January 15, 2020, at 18:23:42
>Oh, come on! (Rolls eyes)
I'm not sure what you are saying. Capsaicin may not have *proven* antidepressant effects in humans, the effects in animal suggest there may be an effect.
I like spicy foods and look forward to eating them more often to see what impact it has on my mood.
Linkadge
Posted by phidippus on January 16, 2020, at 22:04:01
In reply to Re: I knew spicy foods helped my depression » phidippus, posted by linkadge on January 16, 2020, at 15:24:43
I imagine you are going to feel good because you ate, a not so unpleasurable activity.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 16, 2020, at 23:30:26
In reply to I knew spicy foods helped my depression, posted by linkadge on January 12, 2020, at 16:37:47
Yes, this kind of food helps me, too.
Northern Indian? I'm not sure what you call it. A friend from India once tried to explain to me regional differences in food... There some some of the Indian curry smells that I find a bit hard to palate. But some of the meat curries that are creamy and spicy and really really really really really good.
I think it is the chili / capsiacan. I wish I knew how to cook some of the dishes.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 16, 2020, at 23:31:48
In reply to Re: I knew spicy foods helped my depression, posted by rjlockhart37 on January 12, 2020, at 21:28:50
Jalapenos too. They are really hard to find, here.
I managed to find some a couple times, in Dunedin. Chili. Yum. We don't eat much Chili, here.
Posted by linkadge on January 17, 2020, at 8:09:59
In reply to Re: I knew spicy foods helped my depression » linkadge, posted by phidippus on January 16, 2020, at 22:04:01
>I imagine you are going to feel good because you >ate, a not so unpleasurable activity.
Are you saying that food ingredients can have absolutely no medicinal value? Many spices have documented potent anti-inflammatory effects. Eating spicey foods is also linked to longevity.
I'm not suggesting flushing your meds in favor of eating spicy foods (if that's what you mean).
What I am saying is that (along with other 'functional foods' like coffee, tea, cocoa etc.) spices may have the ability to modulate mood.
If I could modulate my diet in a way that means I have to take even 10-20% less medication, I will do that.
F.Y.I. In addition to TRVP1 receptors, I just read that capsaicin interacts with several opioid receptor subtypes (mu, delta, kappa).
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on January 17, 2020, at 9:11:55
In reply to Re: I knew spicy foods helped my depression » phidippus, posted by linkadge on January 17, 2020, at 8:09:59
"For example, capsaicin, the active ingredient in hot peppers, is reputed to have euphoric properties. Capsaicin binds specifically to the vanilloid TRPV1 receptor and binds weakly to cannabinoid CB1 and CB2 receptors (7). In turn, activation of the TRPV1 receptor stimulates synthesis and release of the endogenous cannabinoid anandamide (8), which binds CB1 and CB2 receptors and is a weaker agonist at the TRPV1 receptor (9)."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6706955/
Posted by undopaminergic on January 17, 2020, at 9:18:07
In reply to Re: I knew spicy foods helped my depression, posted by linkadge on January 17, 2020, at 9:11:55
> "For example, capsaicin, the active ingredient in hot peppers, is reputed to have euphoric properties. Capsaicin binds specifically to the vanilloid TRPV1 receptor and binds weakly to cannabinoid CB1 and CB2 receptors (7). In turn, activation of the TRPV1 receptor stimulates synthesis and release of the endogenous cannabinoid anandamide (8), which binds CB1 and CB2 receptors and is a weaker agonist at the TRPV1 receptor (9)."
>
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6706955/
>
>Interesting. Do you know yet if more of it is always merrier? Some drugs have multiphasic dose-response curves.
-undopaminergic
Posted by phidippus on January 17, 2020, at 12:29:00
In reply to Re: I knew spicy foods helped my depression » phidippus, posted by linkadge on January 17, 2020, at 8:09:59
>Are you saying that food ingredients can have absolutely no medicinal value?
No, I'm saying scrutinizing your mood after eating spicy foods is not an accurate way of gauging whether you are depressed or not and whether it has to do with the food or whether you just ate.
Posted by linkadge on January 17, 2020, at 16:03:57
In reply to Re: I knew spicy foods helped my depression » linkadge, posted by phidippus on January 17, 2020, at 12:29:00
>No, I'm saying scrutinizing your mood after eating >spicy foods is not an accurate way of gauging >whether you are depressed
I'm not trying to 'gauge' whether or not I'm depressed. I am spending hundreds of dollars a month out of pocket on standard medications (no insurance) to treat a mental health problem. I would have to have a mental health problem to be spending that kind of money (on a presumed mental health problem) if I didn't have a mental health problem (which, of course, is parodioxcal). Coffee is considered a 'food product'. However, for me its consumption leads to a rapid (albeit moderate and temporary) improvement in my mood. Similarly, I noticed (anecdotally) that I felt an improvement in my mood (of course not remission) after eating a generous quantity of spicy food. I then looked up different ingredients and found that yes, in fact there could be a mechanism by which spicy food (capsaicin in particular) could influence mood. I also then saw that there was some overlap in the actions of capsaicin and cannabis (another 'plant' substance which has a very rapid acting effect on my mood). As we know with 'fast acting' antidepressants, an antidepressant response does not (necessarily) need to take weeks or months.
Another example of a food product with antidepressant effects is the spice saffron. Google 'saffron for depression' if you are interested. Lots of recent research. It acts as a triple reuptake inhibitor. Turmeric and quercetin are monoamine oxidase inhibitors. Peppermint / menthol is a dopamine reuptake inhibitor.
I am not trying to 'prove anything'. However, I'm not sure if your logic holds. I.e. that there are no food products that can cause acute changes to mood. Again, coffee (which has a documented anti-suicide effect) does (or at least can) in fact have acute effects on mood).
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on January 17, 2020, at 16:07:18
In reply to Re: I knew spicy foods helped my depression, posted by undopaminergic on January 17, 2020, at 9:18:07
No clue.
I do know that my medical cannabis has seemed quite a bit more potent in the days that I have ramped up my hot-spice intake.
I am interested in the TRPV1 receptors as they seem to modulate some of the effect of classic antidepressants. They also appear to have anticonvulsant effects.
3 substances that seem to help me (cannabis, capsaicin and niacin) all interact with TRPV1.
Linkadge
Posted by undopaminergic on January 17, 2020, at 16:51:09
In reply to Re: I knew spicy foods helped my depression » undopaminergic, posted by linkadge on January 17, 2020, at 16:07:18
> No clue.
>
> I do know that my medical cannabis has seemed quite a bit more potent in the days that I have ramped up my hot-spice intake.
>
> I am interested in the TRPV1 receptors as they seem to modulate some of the effect of classic antidepressants. They also appear to have anticonvulsant effects.
>
> 3 substances that seem to help me (cannabis, capsaicin and niacin) all interact with TRPV1.
>As a result of one of my current research projects into prospective augmentation treatments, namely lithium in this case, I came to look into whether lithium was also a TRPV1 (Transient Receptor Potential Vanilloid 1) modulator. There was little or no evidence of this. However, another thing I looked into was how lithium may interact with the cannabinoid system; see:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=lithium%5Bti%5D+AND+cannabinoid%5Bti%5DIt appears from a cursory glance (without getting into any details) that lithium and cannabinoids may antagonise certain of each other's effects. Does this make any sense from your experience? You said you are going on and off lithium recurrently.
Maybe you have to choose "either or"?
-undopaminergic
Posted by undopaminergic on January 17, 2020, at 17:25:05
In reply to Re: I knew spicy foods helped my depression » phidippus, posted by linkadge on January 17, 2020, at 16:03:57
> >No, I'm saying scrutinizing your mood after eating >spicy foods is not an accurate way of gauging >whether you are depressed
>
> I'm not trying to 'gauge' whether or not I'm depressed. I am spending hundreds of dollars a month out of pocket on standard medications (no insurance) to treat a mental health problem. I would have to have a mental health problem to be spending that kind of money (on a presumed mental health problem) if I didn't have a mental health problem (which, of course, is parodioxcal).
>Do you have any idea of where you stand, mental health-wise, in the absence of specific (ie. beyond normal food and drink consumption) pharmacodynamic treatments?
> Coffee is considered a 'food product'. However, for me its consumption leads to a rapid (albeit moderate and temporary) improvement in my mood.
>I have noticed this effect myself, but usually only in the absence of chronic caffeine. I connect this with a study I read, which indicated that caffeine acutely elevates both dopamine and acetylcholine extracellular concentrations, but chronically only acetylcholine.
> Similarly, I noticed (anecdotally) that I felt an improvement in my mood (of course not remission) after eating a generous quantity of spicy food.
>It may be hard to dissociate the gustatory experience from specific neurochemical effects. Ie. it is easy to hypothesise that foods with strong effects on taste receptors, have been strongly selected *for* or *against* in terms of evolution. Eg. sucrose solution is used to assess anhedonia in rodents.
On that note, it is interesting how an intact dopaminergic system does not help the "liking" (enjoying the taste) of sucrose, but profoundly determines the "wanting" (desiring (more)) of the substance; the motivation to acquire it.
> As we know with 'fast acting' antidepressants, an antidepressant response does not (necessarily) need to take weeks or months.
>It is amusing, but easy to understand, how substances with a rapid onset of desired effects are virtually always drugs of abuse.
> Another example of a food product with antidepressant effects is the spice saffron. Google 'saffron for depression' if you are interested.
>I've come across that, even read some full-length articles.
> Lots of recent research. It acts as a triple reuptake inhibitor. Turmeric and quercetin are monoamine oxidase inhibitors. Peppermint / menthol is a dopamine reuptake inhibitor.
>I didn't know.
-undopaminergic
Posted by phidippus on January 17, 2020, at 20:08:21
In reply to Re: I knew spicy foods helped my depression » phidippus, posted by linkadge on January 17, 2020, at 16:03:57
>However, I'm not sure if your logic holds. I.e. that there are no food products that can cause acute changes to mood.
I never asserted that foods don't cause acute mood changes (I'm thinking marijuana edibles and ayahuesca AND mushrooms)...I was just saying observing can affect the outcome (i.e. Schrodinger's cat).
I'm 100% on board with you.
Posted by linkadge on January 18, 2020, at 7:23:16
In reply to Re: I knew spicy foods helped my depression » linkadge, posted by phidippus on January 17, 2020, at 20:08:21
>I never asserted that foods don't cause acute mood >changes (I'm thinking marijuana edibles and >ayahuesca AND mushrooms)...I was just saying >observing can affect the outcome (i.e. >Schrodinger's cat).
I see what you are saying. However, for me this was serendipitous. I didn't add spicy food because of a purported mood effect. I did the google searches after noticing feeling better on hot spice days.
Linkadge
Posted by phidippus on January 18, 2020, at 10:18:46
In reply to Re: I knew spicy foods helped my depression » phidippus, posted by linkadge on January 18, 2020, at 7:23:16
What is your diagnosis?
Posted by sigismund on January 18, 2020, at 19:38:18
In reply to Re: I knew spicy foods helped my depression » linkadge, posted by phidippus on January 18, 2020, at 10:18:46
An old thread I remember FWIW.......
https://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20050924/msgs/570218.html
This is the end of the thread.
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