![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 66. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Tabitha on February 19, 2016, at 0:40:20
I finally told my pdoc the degree of suicidal ideation I'd been having and he added lithium 300 mg for two weeks, then 600 mg. Apparently it's the only drug that has good evidence it reduces suicide risk.
I am already on 150 mg lamotrigine, Fetzima (a new SNRI), and triazalam for sleep. The triazalam has worked consistently, but with the others, I get good relief from depression for six months to a year, then a slow slide back. This time it was so gradual and my dark thoughts were so convincing that I kept it secret.
I used to think suicide was off the table because a family member did that and I swore never to do the same. Over time, I moved from hating what she did to feeling forgiving, then thinking it was an OK decision, given the amount of misery she was feeling (chronic pain mixed with severe depression). Lately I have felt impressed that she survived as long as she did, and thought I may not even make it to the same age as her when she died (which would be another three years for me).
Besides not wanting to follow her footsteps, I used to feel determined to be a responsible adult and stay on meds no matter what. Lately though it was seeming pointless. Go on meds, get relief, relapse, try something else, repeat. Overall I still felt like crap at least half the time, and it's so draining to get hopes that this regimen will stick, then have the same result as every other combo. I was ready to just go back to low dose, half-assery.
I observed that my brain was perhaps removing the barriers to suicide one by one. There's still one big one, my spouse. But I found myself thinking well, someday he may die or we might split up, then I won't have that last barrier. My remaining family would just have to deal with it. I'd write them nice letters, unlike my family member did.
So this was a pretty messed up line of thinking, and somehow I decided I'd better share it with my pdoc. I told my spouse about it first, so I'd be less likely to once again not tell my pdoc in our checkup. I told my pdoc, and now the lithium.
I was sad about having to take it, even more than other meds, since it sounds scary, and is a med for people who have failed other meds. But my mood has lifted since I started on it (just 5 days) and I had that transition where you go from not being able to feel pleasure or hope to feeling pleasure, then hope. Have you taken that trip? That transition is always quick, in contrast with the experience of losing hope and pleasure, which is slow enough to be imperceptible, which tends to convince me that I'm just failing at life, so of course I feel bad.
I'm hoping the 600 mg lithium will be enough, then I want to taper off the Fetzima and bump the lamotrigine up to 200 mg. I feel like I'm just done with SSRI's and SNRI's. They always work, then they always quit working. They all wreck my sexual functioning too. Sure it's fine for the first couple months when I'm just happy to not be suicidal, but it's tough to face that as a permanent condition.
Wish me luck and please share your thoughts on these meds.
Posted by SLS on February 19, 2016, at 1:32:14
In reply to Suicidal ideation, adding lithium, posted by Tabitha on February 19, 2016, at 0:40:20
Hi Tabitha.
I'm sorry that you are having such a difficult time. I am glad that you felt safe enough to relate your suicidal thoughts.
I'm sure you understand that many people need combinations of medication to make them feel better. As an example, this is the treatment regime that I am having some success with:
Parnate 80 mg/day
desipramine 300 mg/day
Lamictal 300 mg/day
lithium 300 mg/day
Abilify 10 mg/dayI am wondering if you have ever tried:
MAOI
TCA
Wellbutrin
AbilifyMy doctor has luck combining Wellbutrin with Lamictal. I would even consider adding Abilify to that.
Are you a spiritual person?
- Scott
Posted by Tabitha on February 19, 2016, at 1:55:41
In reply to Re: Suicidal ideation, adding lithium » Tabitha, posted by SLS on February 19, 2016, at 1:32:14
> Hi Tabitha.
>
> I'm sorry that you are having such a difficult time. I am glad that you felt safe enough to relate your suicidal thoughts.Thank you. It's nice to see you still posting. I think it was you who (some time ago) suggested 150 was too low on the lamictal.
>
> I'm sure you understand that many people need combinations of medication to make them feel better. As an example, this is the treatment regime that I am having some success with:
>
> Parnate 80 mg/day
> desipramine 300 mg/day
> Lamictal 300 mg/day
> lithium 300 mg/day
> Abilify 10 mg/dayI'm glad if all that is keeping you stable and functioning. I know there's no real reason to object to multiple meds, but I'm also on three other Rx and 4 OTC daily (these were recommended by docs, not just vitamins and such) for non-mental stuff, so the thought of 4 or 5 psych meds is difficult.
Which meds do you think help most with depression? Does Ability add anything on its own, or is it just to augment other ADs?
>
> I am wondering if you have ever tried:
>
> MAOI
> TCA
> Wellbutrin
> AbilifyMAOI, no. I think I'd have trouble with the diet restrictions, so that might be a last resort.
I've tried Wellbutrin a long time ago. I had extreme irritability with it, but I'd be willing to try again, as I don't think I was on much of any mood stabiliser at that time.
Abilify, no, haven't tried it.
TCA, yes I used those back before SSRI, when I was misdiagnosed unipolar. They made me quite drowsy. Once SSRI were in wide use I was happy to switch to Prozac, although that gave me really uncomfortable agitated dreams. But again, I wasn't on mood stabilizer so might have been hypomania rather than regular side effects.
>
> My doctor has luck combining Wellbutrin with Lamictal. I would even consider adding Abilify to that.I'll ask about those options once I get the lithium and fetzima taper sorted out.
>
> Are you a spiritual person?
>
>
No, in fact I've moved from being non-religious yet still vaguely open to some kind of spiritual practice to more clearly atheist.> - Scott
>
>
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 19, 2016, at 6:00:23
In reply to Re: Suicidal ideation, adding lithium » Tabitha, posted by SLS on February 19, 2016, at 1:32:14
> Hi Tabitha.
>
> I'm sorry that you are having such a difficult time. I am glad that you felt safe enough to relate your suicidal thoughts.
>
> I'm sure you understand that many people need combinations of medication to make them feel better. As an example, this is the treatment regime that I am having some success with:
>
> Parnate 80 mg/day
> desipramine 300 mg/day
> Lamictal 300 mg/day
> lithium 300 mg/day
> Abilify 10 mg/day
>
> I am wondering if you have ever tried:
>
> MAOI
> TCA
> Wellbutrin
> Abilify
>
> My doctor has luck combining Wellbutrin with Lamictal. I would even consider adding Abilify to that.
>
> Are you a spiritual person?
>
>
> - Scott
>
> Friends,
Be not deceived. Scott writes here,[...I'm sure you understand that many people need combinations of (drugs)to make them feel better...].
But at what cost? You see, when taking combinations of psychotropic drugs, the effects are increased exponentially. This could cause your death or a life-ruining condition or addiction. Suicidal thinking and homicidal thinking could take over the person and innocent children could be killed. All of that so one could feel better?
Be not deceived. The FDA has rules that are not followed here as Scott is allowed by Mr. Hsiung to promote these drugs without stating the most adverse consequences that could befall the takers of these drugs advocated by him here. I do not know why Mr. Hsiung is exempt from the FDA rules for promoting these drugs here. But it is much worse than that...
Lou
Posted by SLS on February 19, 2016, at 6:23:58
In reply to Re: Suicidal ideation, adding lithium, posted by Tabitha on February 19, 2016, at 1:55:41
You may or not wish to reply to Lou Pilder. It is not necessary that you do.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on February 19, 2016, at 6:30:23
In reply to Suicidal ideation, adding lithium, posted by Tabitha on February 19, 2016, at 0:40:20
I had to re-write your subject line in order to preserve the continuity of your thread. In this way, there is less of a chance that the thread be completely hijacked.
I generally do not read the posts of Lou Pilder.
- Scott
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 19, 2016, at 6:38:34
In reply to Lou's urgent warning-death by combining drugs » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on February 19, 2016, at 6:00:23
> > Hi Tabitha.
> >
> > I'm sorry that you are having such a difficult time. I am glad that you felt safe enough to relate your suicidal thoughts.
> >
> > I'm sure you understand that many people need combinations of medication to make them feel better. As an example, this is the treatment regime that I am having some success with:
> >
> > Parnate 80 mg/day
> > desipramine 300 mg/day
> > Lamictal 300 mg/day
> > lithium 300 mg/day
> > Abilify 10 mg/day
> >
> > I am wondering if you have ever tried:
> >
> > MAOI
> > TCA
> > Wellbutrin
> > Abilify
> >
> > My doctor has luck combining Wellbutrin with Lamictal. I would even consider adding Abilify to that.
> >
> > Are you a spiritual person?
> >
> >
> > - Scott
> >
> > Friends,
> Be not deceived. Scott writes here,[...I'm sure you understand that many people need combinations of (drugs)to make them feel better...].
> But at what cost? You see, when taking combinations of psychotropic drugs, the effects are increased exponentially. This could cause your death or a life-ruining condition or addiction. Suicidal thinking and homicidal thinking could take over the person and innocent children could be killed. All of that so one could feel better?
> Be not deceived. The FDA has rules that are not followed here as Scott is allowed by Mr. Hsiung to promote these drugs without stating the most adverse consequences that could befall the takers of these drugs advocated by him here. I do not know why Mr. Hsiung is exempt from the FDA rules for promoting these drugs here. But it is much worse than that...
> Lou
>
> Friends,
Be not deceived. Scott lists a combination of drugs that he takes without abiding by the rules of the FDA and Mr. Hsiung allows it. The combination could cause death. Death by serotonin syndrome and death by accident or being so impaired in thinking that one could not know what could kill them an they die from ignorance. Do you want to die?
You see, Scott is allowed here by Mr. Hsiung to promote these drugs with impunity. Scott is also allowed to be exempt from the enforcement policy here by Mr. Hsiung to even allow ant-Semitic propaganda to be posted by him with impunity. And even to be allowed to post defamation against me here all against Mr. Hsiung's own rules. What this can do is distort and mislead readers to their deaths and if they are not killed by these drugs, they could have a lifetime of misery inflicted upon them by the drugs being allowed to be promoted here as "medicines".
Parents, be not deceived. If a medicine can cure, these concoctions called medicines here have no curative power. They are chemical nerve agents used in the commission of death. Death of insects and rats and worms and people. How could any insecticide cure you of anything when the purpose is to cause death?
Thousands of people are killed by these drugs each month. And thousands more are killed by them in ways that the drug is not listed as the cause of death.
Lou
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1334625366
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 19, 2016, at 6:44:23
In reply to Lou's urgent warning-death by impaired thinking, posted by Lou Pilder on February 19, 2016, at 6:38:34
> > > Hi Tabitha.
> > >
> > > I'm sorry that you are having such a difficult time. I am glad that you felt safe enough to relate your suicidal thoughts.
> > >
> > > I'm sure you understand that many people need combinations of medication to make them feel better. As an example, this is the treatment regime that I am having some success with:
> > >
> > > Parnate 80 mg/day
> > > desipramine 300 mg/day
> > > Lamictal 300 mg/day
> > > lithium 300 mg/day
> > > Abilify 10 mg/day
> > >
> > > I am wondering if you have ever tried:
> > >
> > > MAOI
> > > TCA
> > > Wellbutrin
> > > Abilify
> > >
> > > My doctor has luck combining Wellbutrin with Lamictal. I would even consider adding Abilify to that.
> > >
> > > Are you a spiritual person?
> > >
> > >
> > > - Scott
> > >
> > > Friends,
> > Be not deceived. Scott writes here,[...I'm sure you understand that many people need combinations of (drugs)to make them feel better...].
> > But at what cost? You see, when taking combinations of psychotropic drugs, the effects are increased exponentially. This could cause your death or a life-ruining condition or addiction. Suicidal thinking and homicidal thinking could take over the person and innocent children could be killed. All of that so one could feel better?
> > Be not deceived. The FDA has rules that are not followed here as Scott is allowed by Mr. Hsiung to promote these drugs without stating the most adverse consequences that could befall the takers of these drugs advocated by him here. I do not know why Mr. Hsiung is exempt from the FDA rules for promoting these drugs here. But it is much worse than that...
> > Lou
> >
> > Friends,
> Be not deceived. Scott lists a combination of drugs that he takes without abiding by the rules of the FDA and Mr. Hsiung allows it. The combination could cause death. Death by serotonin syndrome and death by accident or being so impaired in thinking that one could not know what could kill them an they die from ignorance. Do you want to die?
> You see, Scott is allowed here by Mr. Hsiung to promote these drugs with impunity. Scott is also allowed to be exempt from the enforcement policy here by Mr. Hsiung to even allow ant-Semitic propaganda to be posted by him with impunity. And even to be allowed to post defamation against me here all against Mr. Hsiung's own rules. What this can do is distort and mislead readers to their deaths and if they are not killed by these drugs, they could have a lifetime of misery inflicted upon them by the drugs being allowed to be promoted here as "medicines".
> Parents, be not deceived. If a medicine can cure, these concoctions called medicines here have no curative power. They are chemical nerve agents used in the commission of death. Death of insects and rats and worms and people. How could any insecticide cure you of anything when the purpose is to cause death?
> Thousands of people are killed by these drugs each month. And thousands more are killed by them in ways that the drug is not listed as the cause of death.
> Lou
> http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1334625366
>
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7b7_1334625366
Posted by SLS on February 19, 2016, at 8:00:17
In reply to Suicidal ideation, adding lithium, posted by Tabitha on February 19, 2016, at 0:40:20
It is not unusual for people to react to Wellbutrin by experiencing agitation, anger, and anxiety. I doubt you would react differently if you were given a mood stabilizer. You never know, though. (Just covering my butt).
I have bipolar depression. Bipolar depression is generally more difficult to treat than unipolar depression (major depressive disorder).
Regarding using Abilify as monotherapy, I have not seen anyone here describe it as being effective for depression. For me, Abilify does very little unless it is combined with other drugs. I know one person who did pretty well by combining Abilify and Lamictal. She did not take any antidepressants, and never displayed bipolarity. I suppose one strategy is to push the dosage of Lamictal to 200-300 mg/day if you tolerate it and then add Abilify. 200 mg/day of Lamictal just doesn't cut it for me. At 300 mg/day, I respond significantly better. I did experience some cognitive and memory side effects at first, but these things disappeared completely. Once you establish a Lamictal dosage, you could then add Abilify.
Make sure a "school of thought" doesn't interfere with your treatment. One school of thought is to use only one drug at a time. It is likely that this school of thought will prevent you from getting well. Another school of thought is to leave MAOIs as a desperate last resort. I certainly wouldn't choose it as a first-line treatment. The question becomes how many different treatments can one think of that avoids using a MAOI. You could probably put off using a MAOI for 10 years.
By the way, in the event that your feelings of suicide do not remit quickly enough with lithium, using Zyprexa temporarily is an option. It often works within a week. 5 mg/day given at night might be a good place to start.
Although I didn't react well to it, NAC (N-acetylcysteine) is sometime recommended for bipolar depression - especially in combination with Lamictal. It can take 3-6 months to work. It is more of a food-supplement than it is a drug.
- Scott
Posted by Lamdage22 on February 19, 2016, at 8:36:05
In reply to Suicidal ideation, adding lithium, posted by Tabitha on February 19, 2016, at 0:40:20
Lithium seems good for suicidal toughts.
Posted by Tabitha on February 19, 2016, at 12:05:40
In reply to Lou's urgent warning-death by combining drugs » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on February 19, 2016, at 6:00:23
> You see, when taking combinations of psychotropic drugs, the effects are increased exponentially.Do you have a citation to support this claim?
Posted by Tabitha on February 19, 2016, at 12:11:52
In reply to Re: Suicidal ideation, adding lithium » Tabitha, posted by SLS on February 19, 2016, at 8:00:17
Thanks for your thoughts. I've never had long-lasting improvement with a single drug. I scraped along on a low dose of celexa for years, but in hindsight I can see I wasn't doing very well.
Posted by Tabitha on February 19, 2016, at 12:12:57
In reply to Re: Suicidal ideation, adding lithium, posted by Lamdage22 on February 19, 2016, at 8:36:05
> Lithium seems good for suicidal toughts.
>
>
So far so good. My mood has noticeably lifted already.
Posted by SLS on February 19, 2016, at 12:41:43
In reply to Re: Suicidal ideation, adding lithium » Lamdage22, posted by Tabitha on February 19, 2016, at 12:12:57
> > Lithium seems good for suicidal toughts.
> >
> >
> So far so good. My mood has noticeably lifted already.
>This is welcome news.
When I added lithium 300 mg/day to Parnate, I felt improved within 24 hours. I don't like the way I feel at higher dosages, though. At 450 mg/day, I experience flat affect, passivity, and apathy, along with a feeling of malaise.
Lithium is not the right drug for me when I need something to treat mania, regardless of dosage. A short course of Depakote or Zyprexa work better. My manias occur only in conjunction with certain antidepressant treatments. Interestingly, I haven't had a manic episode since beginning Abilify therapy 15 years ago.
- Scott
Posted by Lamdage22 on February 19, 2016, at 12:51:29
In reply to Re: Suicidal ideation, adding lithium » Tabitha, posted by SLS on February 19, 2016, at 12:41:43
I wish i could try 300mg of Lithium. I could use any AD effects very well.
I think if i persistently work my pdoc he may prescribe.
But first Cannabidiol and then Viibryd.
Is Lithium Carbonate actually safer than Orotate for kidney & thyroid?
What is the chance of contracting kidney damage from 300mg after 10-30 years usage?
Posted by SLS on February 19, 2016, at 14:10:02
In reply to Re: Suicidal ideation, adding lithium, posted by Lamdage22 on February 19, 2016, at 12:51:29
> I wish i could try 300mg of Lithium. I could use any AD effects very well.
>
> I think if i persistently work my pdoc he may prescribe.
>
> But first Cannabidiol and then Viibryd.
>
> Is Lithium Carbonate actually safer than Orotate for kidney & thyroid?
>
> What is the chance of contracting kidney damage from 300mg after 10-30 years usage?I just read a nice article that addressed the kidney issue:
http://bipolarnews.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/BNN2015.6.pdf
From what I understand, the effects of lithium on thyroid function (iodine uptake) is dosage-dependent and reversible when caught early. I plan on taking lithium 300 mg/day indefinitely. It is simple enough to check kidney and thyroid function from time to time.
- Scott
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 19, 2016, at 14:25:08
In reply to Re: Lou's urgent warning-death by combining drugs, posted by Tabitha on February 19, 2016, at 12:05:40
>
> > You see, when taking combinations of psychotropic drugs, the effects are increased exponentially.
>
> Do you have a citation to support this claim?
>
Tabitha,
Thank you for your interest in this topic. Many lives could be saved if they knew the truth about these drugs of which a lot I am prohibited to post here due to the prohibitions posted to me by Mr. Hsiung.
But let us look at just one aspect of this first.
Lou
http://blackbearrehab.com/valium-addiction/mixing-drugs-alcohol
Posted by Tomatheus on February 19, 2016, at 14:47:00
In reply to Suicidal ideation, adding lithium, posted by Tabitha on February 19, 2016, at 0:40:20
> Wish me luck and please share your thoughts on these meds.
I'm not personally a big fan of psychiatric medications based on my experiences with them, but I think that there's clear evidence from both scientific sources and anecdotal sources that psychiatric medications can be beneficial for many of those who utilize such medications. I too understand that lithium can be helpful when it comes to reducing the risk of suicide, and given this, I can see your doctor's logic in prescribing lithium to you. Of course, lithium and other medications (psychiatric and otherwise) are not without risk, and I think it's important that you gather as much reputable information about the risks of the medications that you're taking as possible to keep yourself as informed as you can be. But I think that you did the right thing in telling your spouse and your doctor about the nature of the thoughts that you were having so that something could be done to help lift your mood and to change the direction in which your thoughts seemed to be headed. I hope that the treatment regimen that you're following will work out well for you, and I wish you the best of luck.
Tomatheus
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 19, 2016, at 15:28:19
In reply to Re: Suicidal ideation, adding lithium » Tabitha, posted by Tomatheus on February 19, 2016, at 14:47:00
> > Wish me luck and please share your thoughts on these meds.
>
> I'm not personally a big fan of psychiatric medications based on my experiences with them, but I think that there's clear evidence from both scientific sources and anecdotal sources that psychiatric medications can be beneficial for many of those who utilize such medications. I too understand that lithium can be helpful when it comes to reducing the risk of suicide, and given this, I can see your doctor's logic in prescribing lithium to you. Of course, lithium and other medications (psychiatric and otherwise) are not without risk, and I think it's important that you gather as much reputable information about the risks of the medications that you're taking as possible to keep yourself as informed as you can be. But I think that you did the right thing in telling your spouse and your doctor about the nature of the thoughts that you were having so that something could be done to help lift your mood and to change the direction in which your thoughts seemed to be headed. I hope that the treatment regimen that you're following will work out well for you, and I wish you the best of luck.
>
> TomatheusFriends,
Be not deceived. The poster writes,[...there is clear evidence from scientific sources that psychiatric drugs can be beneficial for many that are drugged with them...].
At what price? Addiction? Life-ruining conditions? Death?
You see, the poster cites no reputable source to substantiate the claim. In fact, 1000s of people are killed by these drug each month. And look at those killed here. And look at those here in a living death, waiting to die and wanting to kill themselves. Are they benefited?
You see, there could be an initial benefit from these drugs due to the placebo effect. And if you send 1000 swimmers across an alligator infested river, some will make it to the other side. And if they try to swim back, they might not be so lucky.
The danger here is that you could be influenced to take these drugs on the account of what the poster wrote. But what really did the poster say? What the poster did say is that he/she is not a fan of psychiatric drugs, nor did the poster stipulate what the benefit is. Do you not see the deception here? Make the poster post his/her substantiation of the claim. Then I will shoot it down with the real research and the argument from the poster will fall apart so quick that you may wonder why this site allows the claim to be made.
Lou
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7rACl-WJEw
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 19, 2016, at 15:33:38
In reply to Lou' urgent warning-The Great Deception » Tomatheus, posted by Lou Pilder on February 19, 2016, at 15:28:19
> > > Wish me luck and please share your thoughts on these meds.
> >
> > I'm not personally a big fan of psychiatric medications based on my experiences with them, but I think that there's clear evidence from both scientific sources and anecdotal sources that psychiatric medications can be beneficial for many of those who utilize such medications. I too understand that lithium can be helpful when it comes to reducing the risk of suicide, and given this, I can see your doctor's logic in prescribing lithium to you. Of course, lithium and other medications (psychiatric and otherwise) are not without risk, and I think it's important that you gather as much reputable information about the risks of the medications that you're taking as possible to keep yourself as informed as you can be. But I think that you did the right thing in telling your spouse and your doctor about the nature of the thoughts that you were having so that something could be done to help lift your mood and to change the direction in which your thoughts seemed to be headed. I hope that the treatment regimen that you're following will work out well for you, and I wish you the best of luck.
> >
> > Tomatheus
>
> Friends,
> Be not deceived. The poster writes,[...there is clear evidence from scientific sources that psychiatric drugs can be beneficial for many that are drugged with them...].
> At what price? Addiction? Life-ruining conditions? Death?
> You see, the poster cites no reputable source to substantiate the claim. In fact, 1000s of people are killed by these drug each month. And look at those killed here. And look at those here in a living death, waiting to die and wanting to kill themselves. Are they benefited?
> You see, there could be an initial benefit from these drugs due to the placebo effect. And if you send 1000 swimmers across an alligator infested river, some will make it to the other side. And if they try to swim back, they might not be so lucky.
> The danger here is that you could be influenced to take these drugs on the account of what the poster wrote. But what really did the poster say? What the poster did say is that he/she is not a fan of psychiatric drugs, nor did the poster stipulate what the benefit is. Do you not see the deception here? Make the poster post his/her substantiation of the claim. Then I will shoot it down with the real research and the argument from the poster will fall apart so quick that you may wonder why this site allows the claim to be made.
> Lou
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7rACl-WJEw
correction
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-5h--dOc-Q
Posted by Tomatheus on February 19, 2016, at 17:02:26
In reply to Lou' urgent warning-The Great Deception » Tomatheus, posted by Lou Pilder on February 19, 2016, at 15:28:19
Lou Pilder has made the charge against me that I have deceived Psycho-Babble readers by not providing a source to support my statement that there's clear evidence from scientific sources that psychiatric medications can be beneficial for many of those who utilize the medications. I chose not to cite any sources in my original statement because scientific sources describing and documenting the benefits of psychiatric medications can be easily obtained through electronic means. However, with it being clear that at least one member here would like to see a source to support my statement pertaining to the benefits of psychiatric medications, I will provide one.
Since the member who started this thread wrote that she had recently begun taking lithium carbonate, I will provide a source from the psychiatric literature that documents the benefits of lithium carbonate. Young & Hammond (2007), in the abstract of their report that was published in The British Journal of Psychiatry, stated the following: "Use of lithium for the treatment of bipolar disorder may be declining even as knowledge of the efficacy and side-effects of lithium has increased. Recent meta-analyses confirm the benefits of maintenance lithium treatment and show that it reduces suicide and suicidality. Psychiatrists should continue to utilise this efficacious treatment for bipolar disorder." The authors of the above-cited report described the benefits of lithium carbonate for people with bipolar disorder in the following statements:
"The decline in lithium use has occurred as the evidence base supporting its use has strengthened. Although the efficacy of lithium in treating acute mania is long-established, doubts remained about its prophylactic efficacy until recently. Recent regulatory clinical trials of new medications for bipolar disorder have included lithium as a gold-standard comparator and Smith et al (2007) used these studies in a meta-analysis evaluating the effectiveness of lithium as a maintenance treatment in this disorder.
"This meta-analysis of 14 randomised controlled trials, of which 8 included placebo arms, provides strong evidence for the prophylactic efficacy of lithium, which prevented relapse to any mood episode with a hazard ratio of 0.68 (95% CI 0.530.86; Smith et al, 2007). The overall prophylactic efficacy of lithium was largely explained by the reduction in manic relapses (hazard ratio 0.53, 95% CI 0.350.79). Lithium-treated patients also had fewer depressive relapses, but this effect was smaller and not statistically significant.
"The efficacy of lithium in bipolar disorder is recognised by the most recent evidence-based clinical guidelines for bipolar disorder, which recommend it as a first-line treatment (Canadian Network for Mood and Anxiety Treatments, 2006; National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence, 2006)."
I should point out that the member who started this thread asked for my thoughts on the medications that she's taking. I did just that. And now that a desire has been expressed that I provide a source to support the statement that I made about the benefits of psychiatric medications, I've done that, as well. I would also like to point out that I feel hurt by the charge that I deceived members here on this site and that I find such a charge to be false, as I most certainly did not intend to state anything that was incorrect, nor do I have any reason to believe that I did (especially now that I've provided a source to support the statement that I made regarding the benefits of psychiatric medications). Lou Pilder often writes of others that what they write "could decrease the respect, regard and confidence" in which he is held and "induce hostile and disagreeable feelings and opinions" about him. Well, Lou, what effect do you think that erroneously accusing someone of deceiving members on this site can have? Do you think that it could decrease the respect, regard, and confidence in which I'm held and induce hostile and disagreeable feelings and opinions about me? If you don't like it when others here write things that lead you to feel hurt and accused, then why do you write things that could lead me to feel the same way? Do my feelings not matter?
Tomatheus
==
REFERENCE
Young, A.H., & Hammond, J.M. (2007). Lithium in mood disorders: Increasing evidence base, declining use? The British Journal of Psychiatry, 191, 474-476. Article: http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/191/6/474
==
> Friends,
> Be not deceived. The poster writes,[...there is clear evidence from scientific sources that psychiatric drugs can be beneficial for many that are drugged with them...].
> At what price? Addiction? Life-ruining conditions? Death?
> You see, the poster cites no reputable source to substantiate the claim. In fact, 1000s of people are killed by these drug each month. And look at those killed here. And look at those here in a living death, waiting to die and wanting to kill themselves. Are they benefited?
> You see, there could be an initial benefit from these drugs due to the placebo effect. And if you send 1000 swimmers across an alligator infested river, some will make it to the other side. And if they try to swim back, they might not be so lucky.
> The danger here is that you could be influenced to take these drugs on the account of what the poster wrote. But what really did the poster say? What the poster did say is that he/she is not a fan of psychiatric drugs, nor did the poster stipulate what the benefit is. Do you not see the deception here? Make the poster post his/her substantiation of the claim. Then I will shoot it down with the real research and the argument from the poster will fall apart so quick that you may wonder why this site allows the claim to be made.
> Lou
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7rACl-WJEw
Posted by SLS on February 19, 2016, at 17:08:29
In reply to Re: deception? » Lou Pilder, posted by Tomatheus on February 19, 2016, at 17:02:26
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 19, 2016, at 17:19:56
In reply to Re: deception? » Lou Pilder, posted by Tomatheus on February 19, 2016, at 17:02:26
> Lou Pilder has made the charge against me that I have deceived Psycho-Babble readers by not providing a source to support my statement that there's clear evidence from scientific sources that psychiatric medications can be beneficial for many of those who utilize the medications. I chose not to cite any sources in my original statement because scientific sources describing and documenting the benefits of psychiatric medications can be easily obtained through electronic means. However, with it being clear that at least one member here would like to see a source to support my statement pertaining to the benefits of psychiatric medications, I will provide one.
>
> Since the member who started this thread wrote that she had recently begun taking lithium carbonate, I will provide a source from the psychiatric literature that documents the benefits of lithium carbonate. Young & Hammond (2007), in the abstract of their report that was published in The British Journal of Psychiatry, stated the following: "Use of lithium for the treatment of bipolar disorder may be declining even as knowledge of the efficacy and side-effects of lithium has increased. Recent meta-analyses confirm the benefits of maintenance lithium treatment and show that it reduces suicide and suicidality. Psychiatrists should continue to utilise this efficacious treatment for bipolar disorder." The authors of the above-cited report described the benefits of lithium carbonate for people with bipolar disorder in the following statements:
>
> "The decline in lithium use has occurred as the evidence base supporting its use has strengthened. Although the efficacy of lithium in treating acute mania is long-established, doubts remained about its prophylactic efficacy until recently. Recent regulatory clinical trials of new medications for bipolar disorder have included lithium as a gold-standard comparator and Smith et al (2007) used these studies in a meta-analysis evaluating the effectiveness of lithium as a maintenance treatment in this disorder.
>
> "This meta-analysis of 14 randomised controlled trials, of which 8 included placebo arms, provides strong evidence for the prophylactic efficacy of lithium, which prevented relapse to any mood episode with a hazard ratio of 0.68 (95% CI 0.530.86; Smith et al, 2007). The overall prophylactic efficacy of lithium was largely explained by the reduction in manic relapses (hazard ratio 0.53, 95% CI 0.350.79). Lithium-treated patients also had fewer depressive relapses, but this effect was smaller and not statistically significant.
>
> "The efficacy of lithium in bipolar disorder is recognised by the most recent evidence-based clinical guidelines for bipolar disorder, which recommend it as a first-line treatment (Canadian Network for Mood and Anxiety Treatments, 2006; National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence, 2006)."
>
> I should point out that the member who started this thread asked for my thoughts on the medications that she's taking. I did just that. And now that a desire has been expressed that I provide a source to support the statement that I made about the benefits of psychiatric medications, I've done that, as well. I would also like to point out that I feel hurt by the charge that I deceived members here on this site and that I find such a charge to be false, as I most certainly did not intend to state anything that was incorrect, nor do I have any reason to believe that I did (especially now that I've provided a source to support the statement that I made regarding the benefits of psychiatric medications). Lou Pilder often writes of others that what they write "could decrease the respect, regard and confidence" in which he is held and "induce hostile and disagreeable feelings and opinions" about him. Well, Lou, what effect do you think that erroneously accusing someone of deceiving members on this site can have? Do you think that it could decrease the respect, regard, and confidence in which I'm held and induce hostile and disagreeable feelings and opinions about me? If you don't like it when others here write things that lead you to feel hurt and accused, then why do you write things that could lead me to feel the same way? Do my feelings not matter?
>
> Tomatheus
>
> ==
>
> REFERENCE
>
> Young, A.H., & Hammond, J.M. (2007). Lithium in mood disorders: Increasing evidence base, declining use? The British Journal of Psychiatry, 191, 474-476. Article: http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/191/6/474
>
> ==
>
> > Friends,
> > Be not deceived. The poster writes,[...there is clear evidence from scientific sources that psychiatric drugs can be beneficial for many that are drugged with them...].
> > At what price? Addiction? Life-ruining conditions? Death?
> > You see, the poster cites no reputable source to substantiate the claim. In fact, 1000s of people are killed by these drug each month. And look at those killed here. And look at those here in a living death, waiting to die and wanting to kill themselves. Are they benefited?
> > You see, there could be an initial benefit from these drugs due to the placebo effect. And if you send 1000 swimmers across an alligator infested river, some will make it to the other side. And if they try to swim back, they might not be so lucky.
> > The danger here is that you could be influenced to take these drugs on the account of what the poster wrote. But what really did the poster say? What the poster did say is that he/she is not a fan of psychiatric drugs, nor did the poster stipulate what the benefit is. Do you not see the deception here? Make the poster post his/her substantiation of the claim. Then I will shoot it down with the real research and the argument from the poster will fall apart so quick that you may wonder why this site allows the claim to be made.
> > Lou
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7rACl-WJEw
>
> Friends,
Be not deceived. The poster wrote that there are people that get benefit from psychiatric drugs. I asked at what price.
When these type of arguments arise, my opponents bring up Lithium and people think that Lithium is a drug. Lithium is not a drug. This then becomes a straw man fallacy by substituting Lithium for a drug when it is not.
Lou
Posted by Tomatheus on February 19, 2016, at 18:29:09
In reply to Lou's rebuttle-Lithium is not a drug » Tomatheus, posted by Lou Pilder on February 19, 2016, at 17:19:56
Lou,
As I already said, I brought up lithium carbonate because it's the psychiatric medication that the member who started this thread recently started taking under her doctor's care. I never used the word "drug" to describe lithium carbonate. As you're saying, lithium carbonate is not technically a drug, but being a substance that's prescribed by doctors for the treatment of psychiatric conditions, it is a psychiatric medication. Now, let's look at my original statement that you wanted me to show some support for: "I think that there's clear evidence from both scientific sources and anecdotal sources that psychiatric medications can be beneficial for many of those who utilize such medications" In my statement, I said that there is clear evidence from scientific and other (anecdotal) sources that psychiatric medications can be beneficial for many of those who utilize them. Now, the wording I used was important, as I stated that *psychiatric medications* can be beneficial, and I did not use the word drug, which you apparently prefer to use. As I explained above, lithium carbonate is a psychiatric medication. The source that I included in my last post described the benefits of this medication as being a reduction in suicide and suicidality, a reduction in the symptoms of acute mania, a reduction in the manic relapses, and a statistically non-significant reduction in depressive relapses. So, the source that I included described the benefits of one psychiatric medication, which backs up my statement that psychiatric medications can be beneficial for many of those who utilize them.
With respect to other psychiatric medications, I'll begin by making the point that the medications that I'm referring to have all been approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration and/or other governmental regulatory agencies for the treatment of at least one psychiatric condition and that such approvals can only be made if there is sound scientific evidence to show that the medications can effectively reduce the symptoms of the condition that the medication is intended to treat. This should be enough evidence to support my original statement pertaining to the benefits of psychiatric medications, but if you want me to provide a source that describes and documents the beneficial effects of a psychiatric medication that's an actual drug and not just a substance that can occur naturally, I'll do that as well. In their review of the effectiveness of monoamine oxidase inhibitor antidepressants, Quitkin et al. (1979) stated that Nardil (phenelzine) is "clearly effective" in the treatment of depressive conditions that are "atypical" or "neurotic" in nature, despite not being conclusively effective for depressive conditions that are considered to be "endogenous." As there are many individuals with depressive conditions that would be considered to be "atypical" or "neurotic," the statement by Quitkin et al. (1979) that Nardil is "clearly effective" in the treatment of these conditions backs up my statement that a second psychiatric medication -- and this one clearly is a drug -- can be beneficial for many of those who use it.
Regarding the question that you asked about the "price" of taking psychiatric medications, I already stated in this thread that psychiatric medications and other medications are not without risk, and I recommended to the member who started this thread to gather as much reputable information about these risks as she possibly can. So, that question of yours has already been answered.
And now that I've answered your question, I would like to remind you that I asked you some questions in my last post that I've yet to see answers to. If you missed my questions, here they are again:
"Well, Lou, what effect do you think that erroneously accusing someone of deceiving members on this site can have?"
"Do you think that it could decrease the respect, regard, and confidence in which I'm held and induce hostile and disagreeable feelings and opinions about me?"
"If you don't like it when others here write things that lead you to feel hurt and accused, then why do you write things that could lead me to feel the same way?"
"Do my feelings not matter?"
Considering that it's taken me some time now to respond to your false charge of deceiving Psycho-Babble members and to otherwise respond to what you've written here, I would appreciate it if you would be courteous enough to respond to at least some of the questions I've asked of you.
Tomatheus
==
REFERENCE
Quitkin, F., Rifkin, A., & Klein, D.F. (1979). Monoamine oxidase inhibitors. Archives of General Psychiatry, 36, 749-760. Abstract: http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=492138
Posted by Tomatheus on February 19, 2016, at 18:31:13
In reply to Re: deception? = Nice post. (nm) » Tomatheus, posted by SLS on February 19, 2016, at 17:08:29
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