![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 6 to 30 of 30. Go back in thread:
Posted by SLS on August 3, 2015, at 21:59:22
In reply to Re: should we all take a bit of lithium? i think yes!, posted by Hugh on August 3, 2015, at 10:23:55
> > just allow it to be sold on the shelf at walmart with other supplements.
>
> Lithium orotate can be found at many health food stores, or online. It's only 5 mg, but doses even lower than this are thought to be beneficial.Beneficial for what?
Thanks.
- Scott
Posted by Lamdage22 on August 4, 2015, at 3:30:28
In reply to Re: should we all take a bit of lithium? i think yes! » Hugh, posted by SLS on August 3, 2015, at 21:59:22
For suicide, homicide and violent crime prevention??!
Posted by SLS on August 4, 2015, at 7:10:25
In reply to Re: should we all take a bit of lithium? i think yes!, posted by Lamdage22 on August 4, 2015, at 3:30:28
> For suicide, homicide and violent crime prevention??!
I wanted to know what Hugh was thinking.
I agree with you. I'm just not sure about the necessary amount of lithium to be ingested to have these effects.
- Scott
Posted by Lamdage22 on August 4, 2015, at 7:16:22
In reply to Re: should we all take a bit of lithium? i think yes! » Lamdage22, posted by SLS on August 4, 2015, at 7:10:25
ok
Posted by Hugh on August 4, 2015, at 9:43:04
In reply to Re: should we all take a bit of lithium? i think yes! » Hugh, posted by SLS on August 3, 2015, at 21:59:22
To prevent dementia. And the following:
"Using data for 27 Texas counties from 1978-1987, it is shown that the incidence rates of suicide, homicide, and rape are significantly higher in counties whose drinking water supplies contain little or no lithium than in counties with water lithium levels ranging from 70-170 micrograms/L."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1699579
This finding was published in 1990. In December 2009, The New York Times Magazine devoted a few paragraphs to lithium in the drinking water, but only as it pertained to the suicide rate. This was after a Japanese study found that the suicide rate was lower in areas with higher concentrations of lithium in the drinking water.
http://www.nytimes.com/projects/magazine/ideas/2009/#l
An Austrian study was published in 2011 in The British Journal of Psychiatry that mirrored the results of the Japanese study.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21525518
This all goes back at least as far as 1971, when Time Magazine published an article about the much higher level of lithium in the drinking water of El Paso, compared to Dallas, and the much lower murder rate in El Paso, compared to Dallas.
http://isteve.blogspot.com/2009/01/el-pasos-low.html
As far as I can tell, nothing, other than calls for "further research," has been done about this.
Posted by hello123 on August 4, 2015, at 14:19:14
In reply to Re: should we all take a bit of lithium? i think yes! » SLS, posted by Hugh on August 4, 2015, at 9:43:04
why is no one mentioning any concern about any possible adverse effects? do we really need to be making much of the population slightly more zombie-like in an attempt to bring the crime/suicide rate down? do we really need to be giving medical treatment to the population in the water supply? even if the amount of lithium added is low, there will still be those whose health react negatively to it. these people couuld be you, your sibling, parent etc... will these people just be collateral damage got the greater good?
besides, how does lithium make one less likely to commit a crime or suicide? what emotional effect does it have that leads to this? my current pdoc mentioned at my first appointment with him that lithium and haldol are the two meds best at preventing suicide. we know haldol can work to inhibit ones abstract thoughts and emotions, as well as their motovation. and make them discophnnected from the emotional world around them. there are many experiences posted on forums from folks describing lithiums effects in the same way.
Posted by Hugh on August 4, 2015, at 15:25:09
In reply to Re: should we all take a bit of lithium? i think yes!, posted by hello123 on August 4, 2015, at 14:19:14
A study published in the British Journal of Psychiatry last month also found it helped slow the progression of memory loss - raising the possibility it could be used to prevent dementia.
However, Dr Appel was keen to stress that only traces of lithium would ever be added to drinking water.
"We are not talking about therapeutic amounts," he said, adding that a person would have to swallow 'several olympic swimming pools' of water a day to get a similar dosage to a prescription pill.
Complete article:
Posted by baseball55 on August 4, 2015, at 21:10:24
In reply to Re: should we all take a bit of lithium? i think yes!, posted by Hugh on August 4, 2015, at 15:25:09
Lithium is effective for suppressing suicidal thoughts- at least for me. I don't know why. But the dose was 900mg - enough to cause weight gain, kidney damage, other potentially serious problems. At doses not much higher, lithium toxicity kicks in. It won't kill you, but it is dangerous to organ systems.
To make this available OTC? Really?
Posted by hello123 on August 4, 2015, at 21:43:12
In reply to Re: should we all take a bit of lithium? i think yes!, posted by baseball55 on August 4, 2015, at 21:10:24
OTC Vitamins can lead to serious complications when taken in too high doses as well. especially the fat soluble ones that build up in the body over time. Vitamim A can cause kidney damage when too builds up in your body.
but the idea was to make what ever doses some authorities would like to add to the water supply, make these doses OTC instead.
and if theyre saying it isnt "therapeutic doses" they want to add to the water, then why add it? if it is indeed a high enough dose to lead to a supposed reduction in crime and suicide, then it is a high enough dose to alter ones brain function. which... would be a therapeutic dose.
Posted by SLS on August 4, 2015, at 22:09:49
In reply to Re: should we all take a bit of lithium? i think yes!, posted by hello123 on August 4, 2015, at 21:43:12
My initial reaction to the idea of adding lithium to the water supply is one of fright. What other substances might we add to control human behavior en masse?
Not a good idea.
Should low doses of lithium be made available as a OTC supplement in the form of lithium orotate? If it is dispensed as a trace element, it might make sense.
- Scott
Posted by Lamdage22 on August 5, 2015, at 3:27:22
In reply to Re: should we all take a bit of lithium? i think yes!, posted by SLS on August 4, 2015, at 22:09:49
"Therapeutic doses" are very high.
The doses against suicide thoughts are much lower.
Anyone with mental illness and especially suicide thoughts should at least try.
Posted by SLS on August 5, 2015, at 7:18:54
In reply to Re: should we all take a bit of lithium? i think yes!, posted by Lamdage22 on August 5, 2015, at 3:27:22
> "Therapeutic doses" are very high.
>
> The doses against suicide thoughts are much lower.
>
> Anyone with mental illness and especially suicide thoughts should at least try.Which preparation would you recommend? What would you suggest is an effective dose to prevent suicide?
- Scott
Posted by Lamdage22 on August 5, 2015, at 7:26:43
In reply to Re: should we all take a bit of lithium? i think yes! » Lamdage22, posted by SLS on August 5, 2015, at 7:18:54
> > "Therapeutic doses" are very high.
> >
> > The doses against suicide thoughts are much lower.
> >
> > Anyone with mental illness and especially suicide thoughts should at least try.
>
> Which preparation would you recommend? What would you suggest is an effective dose to prevent suicide?
>
>
> - ScottHi Scott.
I personally take 360mg of Lithium Orotate daily. I have not tried to figure out the minimal effective dosage due to the circumstance that suicide thoughts are nothing to play around with. I could imagine that 120mg Lithium Orotate (5mg elementar lithium) can be enough.
I have taken 50 mg Lithium Carbonate with similar effects. Also i tried Lithium Aspartate with the same effect.
It seems to not matter so much which lithium it is as long as there is lithium in it.
Its just a superstition why i take Lithium Orotate.
Dont change a system if it aint broken.
Posted by hello123 on August 5, 2015, at 12:36:26
In reply to Re: should we all take a bit of lithium? i think yes!, posted by Lamdage22 on August 5, 2015, at 7:26:43
i believe youre confusing a therapeutic dose with the higher doses that are used for other conditions lithium os used to treat.
medical-dictionary.thefredictionary.com describes a therapeutic dose as "Amount of medication required to produce the desired outcome". if the population were treated for suicidal/homicidal thoughts through the water supply, a therapeutic dose would be needed to achieve the desired outcome of inhibiting these thoughts/emotions in the public.
this is getting technical, but i just dont think the details about the idea to give medical treatment to the population should be downplayed. i guess it would be better to say, depending on dose used, that the doses are lower, much lower or a fraction tlof the doses used in clinical practice.
Posted by Hugh on August 5, 2015, at 13:29:54
In reply to Re: should we all take a bit of lithium? i think yes!, posted by hello123 on August 5, 2015, at 12:36:26
It's been estimated that if drinking water nationwide contained 70-170 micrograms of lithium per liter (the same amount that drinking water in some Texas counties contains), 13,000 fewer Americans would commit suicide each year. There would be thousands of fewer murders each year, tens of thousands of fewer rapes. And it would prevent, or at least delay, the onset of dementia for a great many Americans.
As Dr. Jacob Appel of Mount Sinai Hospital in New York says, "People who oppose adding lithium to the drinking water in trace amounts don't go around advocating to strain the lithium from the drinking water from areas where it does exist."
"150 micrograms of lithium per liter of water are only a thousandth of the minimum pharmaceutical dose, and have no known deleterious effects."
Posted by Lamdage22 on August 5, 2015, at 14:33:39
In reply to Re: should we all take a bit of lithium? i think yes!, posted by Hugh on August 5, 2015, at 13:29:54
it would be interesting to study wether or not lithium in tap water does have any negative health effects.
Posted by hello123 on August 5, 2015, at 14:38:28
In reply to Re: should we all take a bit of lithium? i think yes!, posted by Hugh on August 5, 2015, at 13:29:54
lets just leave our mental health treatment up to us.
but you guys are pro government deciding what mental health treatment is right for everyone. just allowing its sell as a trace mineral isnt enough, is it? i guess i need to call my congressman and see if he thinks i need some lithium.
Posted by Lamdage22 on August 5, 2015, at 14:41:40
In reply to Re: should we all take a bit of lithium? i think yes!, posted by hello123 on August 5, 2015, at 14:38:28
You can call your congressman and ask him if you need flouride :):)
Posted by Lamdage22 on August 5, 2015, at 15:05:38
In reply to Re: should we all take a bit of lithium? i think yes!, posted by Lamdage22 on August 5, 2015, at 14:41:40
i have found low dose lithium to be the cleanest "drug" ever. It doesnt change your whole personality.
It just cuts out suicide thoughts like a good surgeon.
So i dont know what the big deal is.
Posted by Lamdage22 on August 5, 2015, at 15:08:46
In reply to Re: should we all take a bit of lithium? i think yes!, posted by Lamdage22 on August 5, 2015, at 15:05:38
the cleanest treatment ever.
Posted by Lamdage22 on August 5, 2015, at 15:13:51
In reply to Re: should we all take a bit of lithium? i think yes!, posted by Lamdage22 on August 5, 2015, at 15:08:46
you drink mineral water right?
Lithium is nothing but a mineral. It just happens to be used for bipolar at high doses.
That doesnt make anything different.
If the idea of super low dose lithium in drinking water concerns you, how do you feel about flouride?
Posted by hello123 on August 5, 2015, at 16:04:44
In reply to Re: should we all take a bit of lithium? i think yes!, posted by Lamdage22 on August 5, 2015, at 15:13:51
you may have benefitted greatly from it being the cleanest mineral ever for you. but just like with other mental health treatments, many have only experienced negative effects from it.
i dont want the government deciding any medical treatment for me, including flouride treatment. and as i said near the beginning of this thread, ive switched to brushing with bar soap. not to avoid flouride(i dont think ive experienced any negative effect from it personally, but then again maybe i have), but because i was having toothaches even though i had been brushing with flouridated toothpaste and drinking flouridated water. but since ive started brushing with bar soap instead of toothpaste, my tooth pain has almost completely gone away. so for me, regular soap has been better than toothpaste, even with such wonderful flouride in it. i had even been brushing with "Crest Pro-Health", which is supposively supposed to have a more beneficial form of flouride in it than cheaper toothpaste. but.. but... but... the government and even my dentist says i need flouridated toothpaste for "optimum dental health!" nope. but then again, maybe flouridated soap would work better. maybe it wouldnt.
soap>flouridated toothpaste
just keep up your lithium intake and if i ever feel the need for lithium, i'll just ask my psychiatrist about it. is that cool with you?
Posted by Hugh on August 6, 2015, at 13:10:02
In reply to Re: should we all take a bit of lithium? i think yes!, posted by hello123 on August 5, 2015, at 14:38:28
> lets just leave our mental health treatment up to us.
> but you guys are pro government deciding what mental health treatment is right for everyone.Iodine has a profound effect on our brains. Do you think that this mind-altering element should no longer be added to our salt, and whether or not we become iodine deficient should be left "up to us"?
Until 1924, all of our salt was free of iodine, and many Americans were iodine-deficient, resulting in goiters and in low intelligence. Due to the introduction of iodized salt, goiters virtually disappeared, and in iodine-deficient areas, such as around the Great Lakes and in the Pacific Northwest, average intelligence increased by 15 points, and by 3.5 points nationally.
Posted by Lamdage22 on August 6, 2015, at 13:12:24
In reply to Re: should we all take a bit of lithium? i think yes!, posted by hello123 on August 5, 2015, at 16:04:44
> just keep up your lithium intake and if i ever feel the need for lithium, i'll just ask my psychiatrist about it. is that cool with you?
Of course :)
Posted by Lamdage22 on August 6, 2015, at 13:20:17
In reply to Re: should we all take a bit of lithium? i think yes!, posted by Lamdage22 on August 6, 2015, at 13:12:24
My point was not to start a political discussion but to encourage anyone with those issues to try it.
Psychiatrist do not seem to know about the effect of super low dose lithium. So patients are put off by the side effects that super low dose just doesnt have.
And i think thats a grievance to put it mildly.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.