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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Lamdage22 on January 27, 2015, at 14:04:16
In reply to Re: Multiple mechanism with Zyprexa and some atyp, posted by Lamdage22 on January 27, 2015, at 13:42:14
Its like my mind takes on a life of its own.
It just goes and goes and goes.
If it wasnt psychosis but something else, would it be treated any different?
Posted by ed_uk2010 on January 27, 2015, at 16:38:36
In reply to Re: Multiple mechanism with Zyprexa and some atyp, posted by Lamdage22 on January 27, 2015, at 14:04:16
>It just goes and goes and goes.
Like rapid thoughts? Were you depressed at the time? Or more manic/overactive/excited? What were the delusions like?
>If it wasn't psychosis but something else, would it be treated any different?Delusions are a form of psychosis, but they can occur as part of mood disorders, as well as primary psychotic illnesses like schizophrenia.
In schizoaffective disorder, delusions occur *mainly* during depressive, manic, or mixed episodes, but also occur when mood is relatively normal *on occasion*. If delusions or hallucinations *never* occur except in the setting of highly abnormal mood, the diagnosis of schizoaffective disorder is not normally applied, and a mood disorder with psychotic features is diagnosed instead eg. major depression with psychotic features ie. 'psychotic depression', or bipolar disorder with psychotic features. Some doctors may diagnose schizoaffective disorder even when delusions only occur during mood episodes, if the delusions are highly bizarre and resemble schizophrenia.
>would it be treated any different?
Schizoaffective disorder is virtually always treated with antipsychotics, other meds can be used as well but not in the absence of antipsychoics.
Treating psychotic depression, and bipolar disorder with psychotic features usually involves antipsychotics, but not absolutely always.
If you don't mind, it would be useful to know something about the delusions. And in what way did you lose control?
Delusions which occur in mood disorders are most commonly related to the mood state eg. during severe depression, someone may have the delusion that they are actually dead.... during mania, someone may believe they are the president. Delusions in schizoaffective disorder are less likely to be clearly related to the mood state, but they can be... they also tend to be more bizarre eg. someone might believe that they can read everyone else's mind, or that people can read their mind... or that their thoughts are being sent to people by the radio, for example. This type of bizarre delusion unrelated to mood is typical of schizoaffective disorder and is uncommon or exists only very briefly in primary mood disorders. The presence of bizarre delusions is strongly suggestive that antipsychotics are needed. Constant or at least very frequent hallucinations, most often voices, are much more typical of schizoaffective disorder than mood disorders - and normally respond only to antipsychotics.
.............
People with a history of psychosis should avoid dopaminergic drugs eg. amphetamines, cocaine, methylphenidate, Parnate, dopamine agonists (eg. Requip, Mirapex) and possibly bupropion. These drugs may induce psychosis. Large amounts of alcohol are also a very bad idea. Cannabis should be avoided. I'm sure you already know all this but I thought I'd write it anyway!
By the way, how do you respond to Lamictal?
Posted by ed_uk2010 on January 27, 2015, at 17:57:16
In reply to Re: Multiple mechanism with Zyprexa and some atyp, posted by Lamdage22 on January 27, 2015, at 14:04:16
Essentially...
I'm trying to understand you better, rather than making too many suggestions based on inadequate evidence. There is often a tendency for people to make A LOT (of sometimes inappropriate) suggestions on forums like this without really knowing much/anything about the person they're making suggestions to. I'm keen to avoid this type of thing. It can be harmful.
This is the impression I get....
You have a long history of depressive illness, and some anxiety. Various trials of medication did not provide relief. You then had an episode in which you became delusional and rather out of control while taking Parnate. This episode has been difficult for you to recover from. You are currently not psychotic but feel depressed most of the time and have trouble sleeping.
Is that about right?
I don't need to know exactly, but how old are you now and how old were you when your mental health problems began? Have you ever had a psychotic or manic episode when NOT taking an antidepressant? The Parnate episode sounds like drug-induced psychosis.
About trazodone....
Have you ever taken it before?
It seems that Seroquel has been beneficial to you over quite a long period of time. You mentioned being stable on Seroquel alone at one point. Seroquel is known to have antidepressant, antimanic and antipsychotic properties. I can't really say whether you would develop psychotic symptoms again if you reduced Zyprexa too much. I think the risk depends partly on whether your psychotic symptoms occur only in response to certain antidepressants (eg. Parnate), or whether they occur spontaneously. Obviously, if you have a history of delusions, psychosis or loss of control in the *absence* of triggering medication, you are more likely to experience psychosis on reducing Zyprexa than if you experience such symptoms only when triggered by meds. Consideration of this issue is important because it could help you, and your doctor, decide whether they is any chance of reducing your antipsychotic meds in the presence of a sedating drug such as trazodone for sleep.... or whether this would be unwise. The major purpose of reducing Zyprexa would be to reduce your weight or improve your physical health, I assume? So, it would only really be of value to reduce Zyprexa if, a) you are currently needing to lose more weight even in the presence of metformin and b) if you were able to find a replacement for Zyprexa which would treat your insomnia and maintain your stability without causing weight gain itself.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on January 27, 2015, at 18:01:07
In reply to Re: Multiple mechanism with Zyprexa and some atyp, posted by Lamdage22 on January 27, 2015, at 9:16:11
And, what are your height and weight at the moment?
Posted by ed_uk2010 on January 28, 2015, at 5:33:18
In reply to Re: Multiple mechanism with Zyprexa and some atyp, posted by ed_uk2010 on January 27, 2015, at 18:01:07
I just wanted to mention. I do know people who've not put on any weight with valproate. Still, it does cause weight gain frequently. It's mainly a good choice for those who have a clear history of manic or mixed mood episodes as well as depression.
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 28, 2015, at 5:39:13
In reply to Re: Multiple mechanism with Zyprexa and some atyp, posted by ed_uk2010 on January 27, 2015, at 16:38:36
>It just goes and goes and goes.
"Like rapid thoughts? Were you depressed at the time? Or more manic/overactive/excited? What were the delusions like?"
Hmm rapid i dont know. Yes i was depressed. Most of the delusions were of the depressive type. But some grandiose delusions as well. The delusions were that everything is about me in a way if that makes sense. That everything is connected.
"You have a long history of depressive illness, and some anxiety. Various trials of medication did not provide relief. You then had an episode in which you became delusional and rather out of control while taking Parnate. This episode has been difficult for you to recover from. You are currently not psychotic but feel depressed most of the time and have trouble sleeping.
Is that about right?"
YES.
"Have you ever had a psychotic or manic episode when NOT taking an antidepressant? The Parnate episode sounds like drug-induced psychosis."
Most of it drug induced. Mania, definitely no without antidepressants. Psychosis, well i never recovered from drug induced psychosis.
I dont think i can reduce Zyprexa.
I may have psychotic depression. Certainly not clean schizophrenia. I would say im somewhere in between psychotic depression and schizo-affective, type depressive.
It may be one or the other.
Tendency is definitely depression. I seem to be on a whole different scale. What is euthymia for someone else may be mania for me. Does that make sense?
Posted by ed_uk2010 on January 28, 2015, at 6:01:07
In reply to Re: Multiple mechanism with Zyprexa and some atyp, posted by Lamdage22 on January 28, 2015, at 5:39:13
Morning.
>The delusions were that everything is about me in a way if that makes sense. That everything is connected.
Yes, it does. Sometimes called 'delusions of reference' ie. involving beliefs that things which are not really specific or even related to yourself are personal to you. People often believe that someone on television is talking to them personally, for example.
>Is that about right?"
>
> YES.Good to know I've got approx. the right idea.
>Psychosis, well i never recovered from drug induced psychosis.
It's difficult to know what your diagnosis should be, or if it indeed matters. Prominent delusions of reference are more typical of schizoaffective disorder or drug-induced psychosis than psychotic depression. To me, it sounds rather like you had a drug-induced psychotic episode superimposed on a chronic depressive illness.
>I dont think i can reduce Zyprexa.
OK, in that case, you just need to look at managing the side effects. You've already had success with metformin. If you are still overweight there are further options to consider.
>I would say im somewhere in between psychotic depression and schizo-affective, type depressive.
It does make sense yes, but I think the diagnosis has been blurred by the additional of drug-induced symptoms eg. while on MAOIs. Amongst other things, MAOIs inhibit the breakdown of dopamine in the brain - they're not a good choice for those prone to psychosis.
>Tendency is definitely depression.
I see that. That's your state much of the time. The psychotic episodes and grandiose thoughts have existed more briefly in the overall course of your illness.
So, I suppose you need:
1. Avoid all drugs likely to worsen your illness eg. stimulants, MAOIs, dopaminergics etc.
2. Keeping taking Seroquel. It should stabilise your mood and prevent psychotic relapse. It has some antidepressant effect.
3. Adjust your Zyprexa dose gradually if necessary, to find a dose which works well without causing too many side effects.
4. Continue metformin, and consider other options for weight loss if needed. Both medication and non-medication options.
5. Decide whether you'd like to continue pipamperone or try a different med to aid sleep.
6. Consider what might be a useful way of improving your depression without risking mood destabilisation or psychosis. What symptoms of depression do you have right now, apart from low mood? If you look at a list of depression symptoms online it might help to clarify what sort of mood state you're in right now, which could potentially help in treatment selection.
Do you have any other psych problems right now apart from depression and insomnia, which are in need of treatment? eg. nightmares, anxiety etc.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on January 29, 2015, at 10:32:10
In reply to Re: Multiple mechanism with Zyprexa and some atyp, posted by Lamdage22 on January 28, 2015, at 5:39:13
Hi Lamdage,
How are you doing?
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 29, 2015, at 11:56:37
In reply to Re: Multiple mechanism with Zyprexa and some atyp » Lamdage22, posted by ed_uk2010 on January 28, 2015, at 6:01:07
Hey ed. I will post a response later when i am on my laptop.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on January 29, 2015, at 12:05:19
In reply to Re: Multiple mechanism with Zyprexa and some atyp, posted by Lamdage22 on January 29, 2015, at 11:56:37
> Hey ed. I will post a response later when i am on my laptop.
Will be good to hear from you.
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 29, 2015, at 12:52:50
In reply to Re: Multiple mechanism with Zyprexa and some atyp, posted by ed_uk2010 on January 29, 2015, at 12:05:19
">I dont think i can reduce Zyprexa.
OK, in that case, you just need to look at managing the side effects. You've already had success with metformin. If you are still overweight there are further options to consider."
What options? I am a little over weight but i would like to add Mirtazapine because id did indeed help the depression.
"6. Consider what might be a useful way of improving your depression without risking mood destabilisation or psychosis. What symptoms of depression do you have right now, apart from low mood? If you look at a list of depression symptoms online it might help to clarify what sort of mood state you're in right now, which could potentially help in treatment selection."
The only thing that was useful was Mirtazapine. I tried them all.
All of them:
Difficulty concentrating, remembering details, and making decisions
Fatigue and decreased energy
Feelings of guilt, worthlessness, and/or helplessness
Feelings of hopelessness and/or pessimism
Loss of interest in activities or hobbies once pleasurable (BIG TIME), including sex
Persistent sad feelings
Posted by ed_uk2010 on January 29, 2015, at 13:12:17
In reply to Re: Multiple mechanism with Zyprexa and some atyp, posted by Lamdage22 on January 29, 2015, at 12:52:50
>What options? I am a little over weight but i would like to add Mirtazapine....
Main ones are mirtazapine and trazodone, but there are other possibilities. Although mirtazapine often causes weight gain on its own, I'm not sure it would cause any additional weight gain when added to your current meds. Trazodone probably wouldn't affect your weight.
>The only thing that was useful was Mirtazapine.
Why did you stop taking it? I have a feeling that adding mirtazapine would be more helpful for your depression than trazodone. Mirtazapine is now a common addition to antipsychotics for depression in those with a history of psychosis.
>All of them...
Thanks for the list, it helped me understand your situation. I think you should consider mirtazapine instead of pipamperone. If it's helped you before, I have more confidence in it than trazodone. On the other hand, I'm wondering why you stopped it.
Apart from MAOIs, have any antidepressants induced psychosis or manic symptoms?
Have you tried a tricyclic antidepressant such as nortriptyline in addition to antipsychotics?
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 29, 2015, at 13:15:28
In reply to Re: Multiple mechanism with Zyprexa and some atyp, posted by ed_uk2010 on January 29, 2015, at 13:12:17
I too think Mirtazapine is my best bet.
I stopped because of nightmaires but i assume its possible that they fade after time.
My doc wants to test my thyroid levels to see if he can improve.
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 29, 2015, at 13:19:17
In reply to Re: Multiple mechanism with Zyprexa and some atyp, posted by Lamdage22 on January 29, 2015, at 13:15:28
Is it likely that psychotic symptoms improve if depression improves?
Posted by ed_uk2010 on January 29, 2015, at 13:25:38
In reply to Re: Multiple mechanism with Zyprexa and some atyp, posted by Lamdage22 on January 29, 2015, at 13:15:28
>I stopped because of nightmares...
Drugs which block serotonin 5-HT2 receptors sometimes cause vivid dreams, which can be nightmares. You already have this pharmacological effect with your current antipsychotics so you should be 'used to it'. It could be that mirtazapine won't cause nightmares at all if you tried it now. Even if you did have nightmares, they might not persist, so I think it's worth a try.
>My doc wants to test my thyroid levels to see if he can improve.Good idea. If you can find out the exact results, post them.
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 29, 2015, at 13:27:38
In reply to Re: Multiple mechanism with Zyprexa and some atyp, posted by ed_uk2010 on January 29, 2015, at 13:25:38
5ht2 seems to be really evil.
Is that possible?
I will post the results and i will ask my pdoc for Mirtazapine instead of Valproic acid. My argument being that we already know it works for me.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on January 29, 2015, at 13:30:18
In reply to Re: Multiple mechanism with Zyprexa and some atyp, posted by Lamdage22 on January 29, 2015, at 13:19:17
>Is it likely that psychotic symptoms improve if depression improves?
I didn't think you had any psychotic symptoms at the moment?
Antidepressants can sometimes help to relieve depressive delusions, but only in the setting of depressive psychosis. ADs are unlikely to improve any other type of psychotic symptom eg. delusions of reference, delusions of grandiosity, paranoid delusions and auditory hallucinations/voices etc. In psychosis associated with a mixed or manic state, ADs may aggravate the symptoms.
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 29, 2015, at 13:31:29
In reply to Re: Multiple mechanism with Zyprexa and some atyp, posted by ed_uk2010 on January 29, 2015, at 13:30:18
What i meant was if it could help me get along with less antipsychotics.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on January 29, 2015, at 14:04:09
In reply to Re: Multiple mechanism with Zyprexa and some atyp, posted by Lamdage22 on January 29, 2015, at 13:31:29
>What i meant was if it could help me get along with less antipsychotics.
Considering the amount of antipsychotics you're on (rather a lot), I expect mirtazapine might allow some reduction. If it improves your sleep and depression you might not need as much olanzapine.
Although mirtazapine is associated with weight gain, it doesn't seem to cause such marked metabolic changes as antipsychotics.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on January 29, 2015, at 14:06:44
In reply to Re: Multiple mechanism with Zyprexa and some atyp, posted by Lamdage22 on January 29, 2015, at 13:27:38
> 5ht2 seems to be really evil.
>
> Is that possible?You mean if it's stimulated? Stimulation of 5-HT2a can cause hallucinations. LSD stimulates 5-HT2a, amongst other things. Stimulation of 5-HT2c causes appetite suppression.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on January 29, 2015, at 17:46:45
In reply to Re: Multiple mechanism with Zyprexa and some atyp, posted by Lamdage22 on January 29, 2015, at 13:31:29
I'm concerned about how you did on mirtazapine before.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20131209/msgs/1056317.html
Is sounds like you got better and then worse. Can you explain this more?
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 29, 2015, at 23:39:33
In reply to Re: Multiple mechanism with Zyprexa and some atyp, posted by ed_uk2010 on January 29, 2015, at 17:46:45
Weird. I dont even remember that!
Posted by ed_uk2010 on January 30, 2015, at 6:32:45
In reply to Re: Multiple mechanism with Zyprexa and some atyp, posted by Lamdage22 on January 29, 2015, at 23:39:33
> Weird. I dont even remember that!
Has it made you feel differently about mirtazapine? It sounds like you were very focused on MAOIs at the time, you even said you'd make up side effects with other meds to get one!
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 31, 2015, at 9:25:30
In reply to Re: Multiple mechanism with Zyprexa and some atyp, posted by ed_uk2010 on January 30, 2015, at 6:32:45
Yeah, made me feel different. I honestly dont remember.
Im waiting for Glyx-13 by Naurex. Its a long wait but maybe worth it.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on January 31, 2015, at 10:08:26
In reply to Re: Multiple mechanism with Zyprexa and some atyp, posted by Lamdage22 on January 31, 2015, at 9:25:30
>I'm waiting for Glyx-13 by Naurex. Its a long wait but maybe worth it.
I suppose you could try trazodone while you wait!
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