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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Chris O on August 13, 2014, at 15:02:18
As I was pondering Robin Williams suicide yesterday, I ran into a a 1997 journal article by Doryann Lebe from Psychoanalytical Review (that probably has nothing to do with Robin Williams' suicide), but which contained a sentence that resonated with me deeply. I've copied it below. (I got to this article after reading Jesse Bering's great article in Scientific American--"Being Suicidal: What It Feels Like to Want to Kill Yourself"--his meditation on Florida State University psychologist Roy Baumeister's 1990 Psychological Review article "Suicide as an Escape from Self." Link to Bering's article: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/bering-in-mind/2010/10/20/being-suicidal-what-it-feels-like-to-want-to-kill-yourself/)
Wondering if the sentence below resonates with any other babblers? The Bering article is a great read, if you have the time, too.
"The child will tolerate physical and mental suffering to remain attached to the needed-even though pain inducing-mother. If the child is not attached, he feels helpless and fears survival. This attachment and fear is internalized and becomes unconscious as development proceeds. Eventually, what is observed in adult patients is a person who is sensitive to others, but unable to be sensitive to him/herself."
Posted by ClearSkies1 on August 13, 2014, at 15:41:32
In reply to Masochism and the inner mother, posted by Chris O on August 13, 2014, at 15:02:18
Absolutely my personal experience. Even as my elderly mother scrambles to this day to make up for it, the emotional distance and neglect is the prominent and natural tendency. It's how she is built, and has nothing to do with me. Small consolation, but not taking it personally is The Work.
Posted by Chris O on August 13, 2014, at 15:46:08
In reply to Re: Masochism and the inner mother » Chris O, posted by ClearSkies1 on August 13, 2014, at 15:41:32
Yes, I like that--"The Work," in capitals, as if it is a new novel we must write for ourselves. My "Work" is always confusing though because--as the sentences I quoted illustrate--I still want to return to my mother for support again and again. However, the "support" she gives me, even if it is well intentioned, only makes me "weak"; it confuses me and cuts into my sense of masculinity. And it is especially confounding now that she is elderly and can use that as a permanent unspoken criticism that I am not "taking care of her," even when I cannot take care of myself. F.
Chris
Posted by ClearSkies1 on August 13, 2014, at 16:14:23
In reply to Re: Masochism and the inner mother » ClearSkies1, posted by Chris O on August 13, 2014, at 15:46:08
As I say, when I am tempted to return to my mother for comfort and caring, a hug and an "I love you," the well is dry. She simply doesn't have anything to give, or I am certain she would.
I guess it is a form of forgiveness. But memories are forever. We even have an odd, prescient communication. She always seems to know when I am suffering; yet I live a country away, at the end of it, too. We don't call each other often. I don't question the connection. It goes beyond a mother-daughter relationship, and is more primal even than that. It's almost cultural, in a paganistic way. (I am rambling now.) I do treasure it, but I don't rely on it.
Posted by LostBoyinNC45 on August 13, 2014, at 20:09:03
In reply to Masochism and the inner mother, posted by Chris O on August 13, 2014, at 15:02:18
I am aghast that in this year 2014, we still put up with psychologists "psychoanalyzing" the reasons a person committs suicide.Williams evidently suffered from some sort of very severe mood disorder that does not sound like it was being treated pharmacologically or with ECT. Additionally, Williams suffered from a serious alcohol problem. Going by all this, suffice it to say Williams must have been in some severe, chronic pain...including physical pain. He most likely committed suicide to simply end his chronic suffering. Very simple.
The end.
Eric
> As I was pondering Robin Williams suicide yesterday, I ran into a a 1997 journal article by Doryann Lebe from Psychoanalytical Review (that probably has nothing to do with Robin Williams' suicide), but which contained a sentence that resonated with me deeply. I've copied it below. (I got to this article after reading Jesse Bering's great article in Scientific American--"Being Suicidal: What It Feels Like to Want to Kill Yourself"--his meditation on Florida State University psychologist Roy Baumeister's 1990 Psychological Review article "Suicide as an Escape from Self." Link to Bering's article: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/bering-in-mind/2010/10/20/being-suicidal-what-it-feels-like-to-want-to-kill-yourself/)
>
> Wondering if the sentence below resonates with any other babblers? The Bering article is a great read, if you have the time, too.
>
> "The child will tolerate physical and mental suffering to remain attached to the needed-even though pain inducing-mother. If the child is not attached, he feels helpless and fears survival. This attachment and fear is internalized and becomes unconscious as development proceeds. Eventually, what is observed in adult patients is a person who is sensitive to others, but unable to be sensitive to him/herself."
Posted by baseball55 on August 13, 2014, at 21:22:09
In reply to Re: severe overanalyzation, posted by LostBoyinNC45 on August 13, 2014, at 20:09:03
>
> I am aghast that in this year 2014, we still put up with psychologists "psychoanalyzing" the reasons a person committs suicide.
>
I think the article is right on. Many people who commit suicide are not depressed and have had no symptoms of clinical depression. The vast majority of people with clinical depression do not commit, attempt or even contemplate suicide. Suicide is very poorly understood.
Posted by Chris O on August 13, 2014, at 22:13:53
In reply to Re: severe overanalyzation, posted by LostBoyinNC45 on August 13, 2014, at 20:09:03
Eric:
I think we basically agree with respect to what might cause someone such as Robin Williams to commit suicide. Chronic pain is definitely a big part of my mental health woes, as I am certain it was in Williams' case. The Baumeister theory does not address that directly, so kudos to you for adding the very important (perhaps most important) chronic physical + psychic pain symptom into the equation.
Chris
Posted by europerep on August 14, 2014, at 4:18:20
In reply to Re: severe overanalyzation, posted by baseball55 on August 13, 2014, at 21:22:09
> Many people who commit suicide are not depressed and have had no symptoms of clinical depression.
> The vast majority of people with clinical depression do not commit, attempt or even contemplate suicide.
Hmm, can you provide any evidence to back up those two points? Of course it all depends on how you define the words, but, for example, in the first phrase, if you replace being depressed with having a psychiatric diagnosis then the numbers clearly tell a different story.
Posted by LostBoyinNC45 on August 14, 2014, at 17:27:47
In reply to Re: severe overanalyzation » LostBoyinNC45, posted by Chris O on August 13, 2014, at 22:13:53
psychoanalyzing clinical depression is absolutely no different than psychoanalyzing hypertension or psychoanalyzing sleep apnea. Its stupid. These are all nothing but diseases. One is primarily a neurological/neuroendocrine illness, the second is a cardiovascular illness and the third is a pulmonary and ENT illness.
Face it, the science understanding clinical depression and bipolar disorder is primitive. And that is being nice about it.
Eric AKA "LostBoyinNC"
> Eric:
>
> I think we basically agree with respect to what might cause someone such as Robin Williams to commit suicide. Chronic pain is definitely a big part of my mental health woes, as I am certain it was in Williams' case. The Baumeister theory does not address that directly, so kudos to you for adding the very important (perhaps most important) chronic physical + psychic pain symptom into the equation.
>
> Chris
Posted by baseball55 on August 14, 2014, at 19:47:37
In reply to Re: severe overanalyzation » baseball55, posted by europerep on August 14, 2014, at 4:18:20
I have no hard data, except to note that (a) mood disorders are very common; (b) hospitalizations for serious suicidal ideation are not very common; (c) suicide attempts are uncommon; (d) suicide is quite rare.
There are frequent reports of people, especially young people, committing suicide with no prior history of mental illness.
> > Many people who commit suicide are not depressed and have had no symptoms of clinical depression.
>
> > The vast majority of people with clinical depression do not commit, attempt or even contemplate suicide.
>
> Hmm, can you provide any evidence to back up those two points? Of course it all depends on how you define the words, but, for example, in the first phrase, if you replace being depressed with having a psychiatric diagnosis then the numbers clearly tell a different story.
>
Posted by europerep on August 15, 2014, at 15:48:55
In reply to Re: severe overanalyzation » europerep, posted by baseball55 on August 14, 2014, at 19:47:37
> I have no hard data, except to note that (a) mood disorders are very common; (b) hospitalizations for serious suicidal ideation are not very common; (c) suicide attempts are uncommon; (d) suicide is quite rare.
>Ok, so basically, you made it up ;-)... no I mean I get your point, but I think that, precisely because suicide is so poorly understood, it is important to use the little hard data we have.
I have seen a range of sources saying that somewhere between 70% and 90% of all those who complete suicide have had a psychiatric diagnosis. Whether they were in treatment, or when the diagnosis is made etc. are a different story, but they have been to a psychiatrist at some point in their life. I don't have a neat source to quote, but the last time I read it just recently was in the powerpoint of a university lecture, so I think it's moderately reliable.
Now, psychiatric diagnoses includes more than MDD, but if you see that depressive symptoms are also among the things that cause a huge amount of suffering in bipolar, schizo-affective, psychotic depression, schizophrenia etc., I think it's fair to suppose that many suicide completers have dealt with depression at some point in their lives. That the vast majority of people who have dealt with depression never become suicide completers, is a completely separate thing.
And then there's also the definition of words. Does contemplating suicide mean that you have vague thoughts thinking that if all else fails you can still commit suicide, or does it mean searching for a method, preparing it, writing letters, etc.? I have been at both points, but with about ten years in between.
I personally think that suicidality is much more common among people with depression than many people think. Not just severe depression. It's just that it only becomes a serious option after quite a long time, like was the case for me. And at least for people who suffer "just" episodes of depression, as opposed to chronic, depression goes away sufficiently fast for serious suicidality not to occur. But that last part is really just speculation on my part, the first part of this post really does have some data to support it.
Posted by Chris O on August 15, 2014, at 17:45:34
In reply to Re: severe overanalyzation » baseball55, posted by europerep on August 15, 2014, at 15:48:55
"I personally think that suicidality is much more common among people with depression than many people think. Not just severe depression. It's just that it only becomes a serious option after quite a long time, like was the case for me. And at least for people who suffer "just" episodes of depression, as opposed to chronic, depression goes away sufficiently fast for serious suicidality not to occur."
Well said. I totally concur. Whether or not someone has a professional psychiatric diagnosis, it's hard for me to disconnect the true underlying motivations for suicide from mental illness, at least in the West. In East Asia, where Hinduism, Buddhism, and Confucianism dominate--without the suicide prohibitions of the Abrahamic faiths (that I believe affect most of us in the West, even those of us believing ourselves to be completely secular humanist), the issue is more complicated.
Chris
Posted by SLS on August 16, 2014, at 0:33:18
In reply to Re: severe overanalyzation » europerep, posted by Chris O on August 15, 2014, at 17:45:34
John J. Mann and others have suggested that suicidality is often the result of a neurobiological substrate. In addition, it was found that anger and anxiety are associated with suicide.
https://www.omh.ny.gov/omhweb/savinglives/Volume2/neurobiological.html
On the other hand, a whole bunch of people jumped out of windows after the stock market crash of 1929. I doubt they were all psychiatrically ill.
- Scott
Posted by Phil on August 19, 2014, at 10:19:43
In reply to Re: severe overanalyzation » europerep, posted by baseball55 on August 14, 2014, at 19:47:37
I think the article is right on. Many people who commit suicide are not depressed and have had no symptoms of clinical depression. The vast majority of people with clinical depression do not commit, attempt or even contemplate suicide. Suicide is very poorly understood.
According to experts in the field over 90% of people that kill themselves suffered from mental illness. especially depressive illness. bipolar, depression, etc.
This is the end of the thread.
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