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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Christ_empowered on August 7, 2014, at 11:11:25
Especially neuroleptics. Ever happened to you? I think it happens more often to "trouble makers," the poor, those with a criminal history, and minorities. Just a guess...
Posted by Lamdage22 on August 7, 2014, at 12:15:58
In reply to meds as punishment, posted by Christ_empowered on August 7, 2014, at 11:11:25
Maybe sometimes. IDK if its punishment or a wish to make the troublemaking go away or both.
I once was in hospital and there was a woman with mind boggling ignorance of my personal boundaries. They drugged her zombie like.
She was making everyone crazy.
Posted by Lamdage22 on August 7, 2014, at 12:49:47
In reply to Re: meds as punishment, posted by Lamdage22 on August 7, 2014, at 12:15:58
She literally attacked me as much as you can attack someone psychologically. If you ask me, they are making it a little bit too easy for some saying that all this behaviour is disease and that its not her fault.
Way too easy. Im not talking about depression, but troublemaking.
They should have told her off along with the meds.
This post may upset you.
Posted by Phillipa on August 7, 2014, at 18:42:00
In reply to Re: meds as punishment, posted by Lamdage22 on August 7, 2014, at 12:49:47
She most likely is very ill. Hard for the other patients and staff. Phillipa
Posted by rjlockhart37 on August 7, 2014, at 22:56:01
In reply to meds as punishment, posted by Christ_empowered on August 7, 2014, at 11:11:25
yes.....when a violent patient, or anyone who is apparnetly in a state of rage, or threat around medical personele they usally are sedated with haliparidol and lorazepam.....read this in articles, and i've seen it when i was in JPS psych, totally knocks them out
but yes, not to say that patients with low profiles recieve lower care than those who are famous and rich and high profles which they can request a medication at anytime....that happens in california alot....
they sedated me on zprexa and lorazpeam when i was paranoid the devil was causing bad things happening over and over again....i couldnt take it and i drove to JPS and locked myself in. paranpia about everything bad happening and being caused by evil forces
anyways, i like to make rabbit trails when i talk, back to what you where saying, yes, most schizophenia patients that can't afford private doctors are taken care of over a public health system, and they do not use benzos, or xanax, or painkillers because it's well recored in the system of it's addiction properties
but haliparidol is the main thing for punishment lol
r
Posted by Lamdage22 on August 8, 2014, at 6:30:12
In reply to Re: meds as punishment » Lamdage22, posted by Phillipa on August 7, 2014, at 18:42:00
How do you know who is very ill?
Is everyone very ill who harasses other people?
Posted by Phillipa on August 8, 2014, at 18:53:57
In reply to Re: meds as punishment, posted by Lamdage22 on August 8, 2014, at 6:30:12
Only violent patients that will not stop doing what doing that could be harmful are given a med. Usually the patient history in chart dictates what is most likely to calm a patient down. Phillipa
Posted by herpills on August 8, 2014, at 19:29:17
In reply to meds as punishment, posted by Christ_empowered on August 7, 2014, at 11:11:25
I think what's more punishing is having effective treatments withheld. Just because someone has to get treatment at the community/public health clinic doesn't mean they should be automatically labeled as drug abuser/drug seeker.
Posted by Christ_empowered on August 8, 2014, at 20:11:55
In reply to Re: meds as punishment » Christ_empowered, posted by herpills on August 8, 2014, at 19:29:17
whoa there...
I go to public mental health. I appreciate what they've done for me, without a doubt. They don't even prescribe controlled substances at public health centers around here.
Anyway, I'm just wondering how often neuroleptics (in particular) are used as punishment for deviant and/or undesirable behavior, chemical restraint, etc., rather than simply to help reduce suffering and anguish.
Posted by Lamdage22 on August 9, 2014, at 1:14:39
In reply to Re: meds as punishment, posted by Christ_empowered on August 8, 2014, at 20:11:55
Id say it happens sometimes. My point being why not first confront the behavior. Not all bad behavior is caused by psychosis and can be handled with APs.
Some people behave badly without any illness. Psychiatry kind of has this world view that i can't agree with
Posted by herpills on August 9, 2014, at 8:37:04
In reply to Re: meds as punishment, posted by Christ_empowered on August 8, 2014, at 20:11:55
> whoa there...
>
> I go to public mental health. I appreciate what they've done for me, without a doubt. They don't even prescribe controlled substances at public health centers around here.
>
> Anyway, I'm just wondering how often neuroleptics (in particular) are used as punishment for deviant and/or undesirable behavior, chemical restraint, etc., rather than simply to help reduce suffering and anguish.
>
>Do you mean like when people are court ordered to take a neuroleptic? If they're not being forced by law to take it, then they're taking it by choice.
Now, whether they are getting full informed consent about the possible effects of the drug, that's a different matter.
Posted by Phillipa on August 9, 2014, at 20:05:39
In reply to Re: meds as punishment, posted by Lamdage22 on August 9, 2014, at 1:14:39
I thought the person was in a psych ward? Which would mean that they are sick enough to be there? Phillipa
Posted by Lamdage22 on August 10, 2014, at 1:04:29
In reply to Re: meds as punishment » Lamdage22, posted by Phillipa on August 9, 2014, at 20:05:39
Well yes, thats true. But you can basically do anything in a psyche ward and doctors will always say that it is your illness. I see a problem there.
She knew that and thats why she pissed me off. Thats my guess. I can't read minds, but neither can you. Especially not because you haven't been there. I just think its dangerous to declare every possible behavior as a manifestation of a persons illness, just because she is in a psyche ward. That shouldn't be a license to do anything you want without responsibility.
Posted by LostBoyinNC45 on August 12, 2014, at 21:38:32
In reply to meds as punishment, posted by Christ_empowered on August 7, 2014, at 11:11:25
It happened to me with my first psychiatrist back in early 1998, when I had just turned 29. Right after I had my nervous breakdown. I was put on half a mg of Risperdal for "behavioral control" reasons. The specific reason why that happened was because I told my psychiatrist's female social worker I had "homicidal thoughts as well as suicidal thoughts." Very next day I was back in my psychiatrist's office being put on half a mg of Risperdal.
I specifically asked him if I was schizophrenic and was told no. He was vague after that about why he was putting me on the stuff.
Low dose Risperdal caused all sorts of physical side effects, the entire time I was on it, I had a numb tongue, muscle twitches, tight muscles, involuntary symptoms...at that time I had no idea whatsoever that it I was experiencing EPS symptoms. I was not given any sort of informed consent of the potential dangers of taking atypical anti-psychotics, either...absolutely nothing.
I did not get better on that drug at all and after several months of spinning my gears and asking questions, figured out what had happened to me as far as the Risperdal goes. I went to a second opinion in spring 1998 at Duke and was promptly taken off the low dose Risperdal, advised to find a new psychiatrist immediately and did so.
I consider what happened to me a physical battery with prescription drugs, neuroleptics and if a physician ever attempts it again, I will be seeking criminal charges to be brought against them for battery with a drug with a rough side effect profile.
If you are not hallucinating, hearing voices, smelling odors that are not there, grossly disorganized to the point you have broke touch with reality...you should not be on such drugs. Period.
In my state of NC, it is legal to chemically restrain psychiatric patients who are not floridly psychotic or manic with neuroleptics. I would like to see that NC law get changed. In some states, it is illegal to chemically restrain a patient with neuroleptics. Others, its still completely legal to do so.
I completely agree this tends to occur with patients who a psychiatrist might not like personally. Or with poor patients or patients who it is obvious to the psychiatrist who have been abandoned or semi-abandoned by their family and friends after that first mental breakdown. My family abandoned me to a large degree after my first breakdown, they refused to talk to my psychiatrist, I had nobody advocating for me, etc.
Again, I want to emphasize that after experiencing this personally, I consider it a criminal law issue that has not been addressed in most states in the USA. I dont consider it psychiatric malpractice, I consider it "battery with a drug done intentionally and knowingly" by the prescribing psychiatrist. I believe psychiatric patients should have a 100% right to physical self defense against psychiatrists and psychiatric workers who are attempting to chemically restrain a patient who is not diagnosed with schizophrenia or a hard drug induced psychosis (crack cocaine induced psychotic state).
I assure you, it will NEVER happen to me, again.
Eric AKA "LostBoyinNC"
> Especially neuroleptics. Ever happened to you? I think it happens more often to "trouble makers," the poor, those with a criminal history, and minorities. Just a guess...
Posted by LostBoyinNC45 on August 12, 2014, at 21:49:49
In reply to Re: being 'chemically restrained' happened to me, posted by LostBoyinNC45 on August 12, 2014, at 21:38:32
I consider this an important issue in psychiatry for a variety of reasons, btw. But one reason has to do with using these neuroleptic drugs on patients who are mood disordered or anxiety disordered, but not schizophrenic or manic depressive. There is a lot of evidence that TD and EPS side effects occur easier and faster in primarily mood/affective disordered patients than primarily schizophrenics....schizophrenics can typically tolerate huge quantities of neuroleptics.
When an affective disordered patient goes inpatient for some reasons and maybe gets upset or agitated or scared...oftentimes the psychiatry staff become all bent out of shape and "wont tolerate it." They sometimes will cite "staff safety" for the reason. I dont buy it and to me, its part of the deal they signed on for...dealing with psychiatry patients is lets face it, sometimes physically dangerous. If they cant deal with the potential danger, they should quit. They should not sedate me with a neuroleptic just to make their hospital lives easier and theoretically, safer.
Its nothing but battery with a prescription drug. Might as well take a 2 by 4 and whack the psych patient upside the head and knock them out...to me its the exact same thing and Ive been through it.
Posted by LostBoyinNC45 on August 12, 2014, at 21:57:21
In reply to Re: being 'chemically restrained' happened to me, posted by LostBoyinNC45 on August 12, 2014, at 21:49:49
There was no inpatient anything, no hospital, no involuntary anything. It was all done by a combination of trickery, not telling me the real reason it was being done, telling me "it was for my own good" and blah blah blah. All outpatient, 100%. So it can and has occurred on a pure outpatient basis.
Before it became foreseeable that atypical APs cause metabolic syndrome, type II diabetes, obesity and hyper cholesteral levels, this forum was filled up with outpatient psych patients who were on low dose atypical APs. For everything and anything under the sun. A lot of them, after reading their posts for a while it was obvious their Pdocs were just ignoring them, basically. And shutting their sh*t down by putting them on low dose atypical APs to get them to STFU and not complain as much.
You dont see that now as much, because of the now recognized legal dangers of atypical APs, especially in mood patients.
My early experience with psychiatry (all outpatient) is the reason why I have zero respect for the field and believe it should be disbanded.
Eric AKA "LostBoyinNC"
Posted by Phillipa on August 12, 2014, at 22:35:30
In reply to Re: my chemical restraining occurred outpatient, posted by LostBoyinNC45 on August 12, 2014, at 21:57:21
If you put the pill in your mouth you must have gotten a prescription for the meds and even if a sample there was a med profile included with the medication. So you did it to you. Did you ask the pharmacist what you were taking and possible side effects? Back then more than likely a lot of the side effects of long term use were not as yet known. Phillipa ps when were the atypicals approved year wise?
Posted by Phillipa on August 12, 2014, at 22:40:08
In reply to Re: my chemical restraining occurred outpatient » LostBoyinNC45, posted by Phillipa on August 12, 2014, at 22:35:30
Wiki says that resperidol was approved by the FDA in 2004.? Phillipa
Posted by Christ_empowered on August 13, 2014, at 3:37:53
In reply to Re: my chemical restraining occurred outpatient, posted by Phillipa on August 12, 2014, at 22:40:08
Yeah...shrinks view major tranquilizers as some sort of anti-aggression panacea. Truth is, when you factor in akathisia and agitation and other drug-induced problems...not so great. Even on psych wards, akathisia can lead to violent outbursts and suicidal behavior. Chemical restraints don't always work :-(I'm concerned with the growing use of the atypicals for...everything, really.
Posted by LostBoyinNC45 on August 13, 2014, at 12:42:16
In reply to Re: my chemical restraining occurred outpatient, posted by Christ_empowered on August 13, 2014, at 3:37:53
My current Pdoc, one Ive used for a LONG, LONG time, she respects my rights and human dignity and stuff like that. She's also very very good at psychopharmacology. This is why I stick with her.
She would never do something like attempt chemical restraint for a mere outburst or if I got arrested or something along that line.
All I can say about it though, if my Pdoc ever changed and I had one that ever attempts it again, Im going to pursue criminal battery charges and full conviction of that Pdoc. I aint puttin up with their sh*t, ever again. Im prepared to die for my beliefs, btw. They want to push things, they better be prepared for a long fight and to have their *ss*s kicked, financially and physically.
I go to psychiatrists just to be treated for mental illness. I dont go to them to be treated like a piece of sh*t and that is exactly how some of them will treat you IF you let them do so. While they charge your health insurance, btw.
Eric AKA LostBoyinNC
> Yeah...shrinks view major tranquilizers as some sort of anti-aggression panacea. Truth is, when you factor in akathisia and agitation and other drug-induced problems...not so great. Even on psych wards, akathisia can lead to violent outbursts and suicidal behavior. Chemical restraints don't always work :-(
>
> I'm concerned with the growing use of the atypicals for...everything, really.
Posted by LostBoyinNC45 on August 15, 2014, at 20:55:27
In reply to Re: my chemical restraining occurred outpatient » LostBoyinNC45, posted by Phillipa on August 12, 2014, at 22:35:30
Nothing. He talked like it was candy or something and was a wonder vitamin to me or something. Several months later when I confronted him about it and flat out asked him (was on Remeron by then, which saved my *ss by giving me some decent sleep), he admitted the real reason he put me on a chemical restraint. I still remember him saying to me, "murder is not acceptable." I walked out of his office so angry and stunned by the realization of what he had done to me with that drug, hell a car could have probably come up and hit me.
Right after that was when I sought out a second opinion and quickly fired the "Pdoc."
They were low dose risperdal sample packs my Pdoc at that time gave me. If I remember right, they were 1 mg packs, he told me to cut them in half every night and take half a mg at bedtime.
Looking back on it, I find it weird he trusted me to "take a knife which is a potentially dangerous weapon and cut the 1 mg risperdal pill in half." More psychiatric stupidity.
I never had a prescription of the stuff, never saw a pharmacist regarding risperdal.
> If you put the pill in your mouth you must have gotten a prescription for the meds and even if a sample there was a med profile included with the medication. So you did it to you. Did you ask the pharmacist what you were taking and possible side effects? Back then more than likely a lot of the side effects of long term use were not as yet known. Phillipa ps when were the atypicals approved year wise?
What I know now, I would have called up the local District Attorney's office and requested to have some sort of hearing or investigation into the psychiatrist's use of low dose risperdal on me for "chemical restraint." I would have pushed real, real hard to have that Pdoc arrested for battery with a prescription drug and misleading me, not giving me informed consent. I dont think the civil law approach (litigation/psychiatric malpractice) is good enough or appropriate to stop these sorts of activities. I believe the underlying threat of possible criminal conviction and jail time is the only thing that will stop the psychiatric stupidity that goes on.
Eric AKA "LostBoyinNC"
Posted by Phillipa on August 16, 2014, at 18:27:05
In reply to Re: I was not given ANY type of informed consent, posted by LostBoyinNC45 on August 15, 2014, at 20:55:27
Wasn't a side effect profile given with the samples? Usually is in my experience. Phillipa
This is the end of the thread.
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