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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 37. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Ronnjee on March 12, 2014, at 15:24:11
...Than Good"
Posted by Phillipa on March 12, 2014, at 15:58:32
In reply to Doctor: 'ADHD Doesn't Exist, Drugs Do More Harm..., posted by Ronnjee on March 12, 2014, at 15:24:11
Personally I feel that if a child wasn't add or adhd then how can they become one as an adult. My own grown Grand Daughter was given Ritalin and now in 20's takes no meds and hasn't for years. Phillipa
Posted by phidippus on March 12, 2014, at 19:13:56
In reply to Doctor: 'ADHD Doesn't Exist, Drugs Do More Harm..., posted by Ronnjee on March 12, 2014, at 15:24:11
Ugh.
Eric
Posted by Ronnjee on March 12, 2014, at 19:23:52
In reply to Re: Doctor: 'ADHD Doesn't Exist, Drugs Do More Harm... » Ronnjee, posted by phidippus on March 12, 2014, at 19:13:56
> Ugh.
>
> EricProfound
Posted by phidippus on March 12, 2014, at 19:26:01
In reply to Re: Doctor: 'ADHD Doesn't Exist, Drugs Do More Harm..., posted by Ronnjee on March 12, 2014, at 19:23:52
*f*rt*
Eric
Posted by Ronnjee on March 12, 2014, at 19:50:49
In reply to Re: Doctor: 'ADHD Doesn't Exist, Drugs Do More Harm... » Ronnjee, posted by phidippus on March 12, 2014, at 19:26:01
Why take the trouble to post, yet say nothing?
Posted by phidippus on March 13, 2014, at 8:59:32
In reply to Re: Doctor: 'ADHD Doesn't Exist, Drugs Do More Harm... » phidippus, posted by Ronnjee on March 12, 2014, at 19:50:49
Ha ha.
These articles about ADHD being mythical always come around the bend. They're nothing but propaganda.
Eric
Posted by Ronnjee on March 13, 2014, at 9:42:47
In reply to Re: Doctor: 'ADHD Doesn't Exist, Drugs Do More Harm... » Ronnjee, posted by phidippus on March 13, 2014, at 8:59:32
Propaganda exists on BOTH sides of such stories, and my contention is that it constitutes a sort of extremism, where critical thinking and some healthy skepticism is warranted on the part of the consumer.
Posted by SLS on March 13, 2014, at 10:54:06
In reply to Re: Doctor: 'ADHD Doesn't Exist, Drugs Do More Harm..., posted by Ronnjee on March 13, 2014, at 9:42:47
Crappy doctors will misdiagnose and mistreat ADHD. Good doctors won't. That's the deal. ADHD exists. It can be academically and vocationally debilitating. Stimulants are effective in treating it, even in adults. Some children's future depends on the proper identification and treatment of ADHD.
- Scott
Posted by phidippus on March 13, 2014, at 12:22:40
In reply to Re: Doctor: 'ADHD Doesn't Exist, Drugs Do More Harm..., posted by Ronnjee on March 13, 2014, at 9:42:47
Where do you stand?
Eric
Posted by Ronnjee on March 13, 2014, at 15:11:52
In reply to Re: Doctor: 'ADHD Doesn't Exist, Drugs Do More Harm... » Ronnjee, posted by phidippus on March 13, 2014, at 12:22:40
> Where do you stand?
>
> Eric
I think it exists within the current societal and medical paradigm, where conformity and compliance are king, difference is shunned, and where it's considered a reasonable expectation for all kids to sit still for 6 hours, 5 days a week. The same paradigm, which includes the excesses of Big Pharma, is the reason too many things have been pathologised, and it's to be expected that many people are treated unnecessarily and/or improperly. I suspect that in other paradigms, where expectations of people's behavior are more reasonable than ours, the diagnosis is rareScott mentioned "good" doctors - well, there are as many good doctors as there are good mechanics, with similar results, except that cars have no feelings.
Context is VERY important to any analysis.
Posted by Phil on March 13, 2014, at 18:21:09
In reply to Doctor: 'ADHD Doesn't Exist, Drugs Do More Harm..., posted by Ronnjee on March 12, 2014, at 15:24:11
daily mail is not a really good resource. i mean they suck.
Posted by johnLA on March 13, 2014, at 19:55:08
In reply to Doctor: 'ADHD Doesn't Exist, Drugs Do More Harm..., posted by Ronnjee on March 12, 2014, at 15:24:11
i'll jump in...
i think the 'truth' lies in the middle.
i taught high school (grades 9 thru 12) for close to 30 years.
this is just my experience.
my 1st ten years was at a 'inner-city' school here in los angeles. not many kids on meds at all. many came from very difficult circumstances. this was the 80's/early 90's. wrong colors in your neighborhood and you could be in big trouble.
many of the kids at this inner-city school struggled academically, emotionally, etc. but, either due to lack of knowledge, funding, culture, etc. for whatever reason, the community that these kids came from, one just did not see the amount of medication i was going to see at my next school. we did lose several students due to gang related tragedies. if i remember correctly; 6 students.
my next school that i was at for almost 20 years was a very different; a very upper class community. the amount of kids on psych drugs was unbelievable. i am not saying this in a critical way. it was just so different than my previous school. i think there are many reasons why this was the case. one of the main reasons i think is the parents had the means to have their kid 'evaluated' by a psychiatrist. the parents would often search for answers as to why their child was not 'succeeding' academically, socially, etc. my gut feeling was many of these kids were needlessly drugged. no problem with what colors you wore at this school. but, we lost about 10 kids to suicide. that never happened at my first school. sad.
the parents at the second school (not all) had a very hard time accepting that there kid was just 'average.' anxiety, depression, adhd, and much more seemed sometimes to be the 'reason' the kid wasn't succeeding.
these are powerful medications. dangerous too. mix that in with a kid who's brain is still developing and there is a good chance of disaster.
again, i am in the middle here on this. but, what are we doing to these kids for down the road?
much harder being a kid today. throwing drugs at them in many cases i feel makes it even harder...
Posted by johnLA on March 13, 2014, at 20:00:49
In reply to Re: Doctor: 'ADHD Doesn't Exist, Drugs Do More Harm..., posted by SLS on March 13, 2014, at 10:54:06
>Crappy doctors will misdiagnose and mistreat ADHD. Good doctors won't. That's the deal. ADHD exists. It can be academically and vocationally debilitating. Stimulants are effective in treating it, even in adults. Some children's future depends on the proper identification and treatment of ADHD.
- Scott<possibly scott.
i would say maybe the bigger problem is school's have not changed enough.
how can a kid concentrate when they are bored to death?
i really believe that some of the kids dx'd w/adhd (and who are not) would do wonderfully in a different type of educational setting.
i do agree with you that adhd does exist.
Posted by SLS on March 13, 2014, at 22:59:01
In reply to Re: Doctor: 'ADHD Doesn't Exist, Drugs Do More Harm... » SLS, posted by johnLA on March 13, 2014, at 20:00:49
Hi.
I can't speak to how screening and treatment are implemented in schools. However, I don't see that the incidence of pediatric ADHD should be much higher than 5%. Len Adler puts it between 6% - 9%. That seems awfully high to me, but he's one of the experts.
What would you say is the incidence of a ADHD diagnosis in children of the more affluent schools?
- Scott
Posted by phidippus on March 13, 2014, at 23:01:55
In reply to Re: Doctor: 'ADHD Doesn't Exist, Drugs Do More Harm..., posted by Ronnjee on March 13, 2014, at 15:11:52
>it's considered a reasonable expectation for all kids to sit still for 6 hours, 5 days a week.
I don't think its an expectation at all.
>too many things have been pathologised
Or maybe just enough things have been pathologised.
>many people are treated unnecessarily and/or improperly
You'd have to show me some hard numbers to back that statement up.
>the diagnosis is rare
Maybe it is and we haven't identified as many patients as we should have.
Eric
Posted by johnLA on March 14, 2014, at 9:48:10
In reply to Re: Doctor: 'ADHD Doesn't Exist, Drugs Do More Harm... » johnLA, posted by SLS on March 13, 2014, at 22:59:01
>Hi.
I can't speak to how screening and treatment are implemented in schools. However, I don't see that the incidence of pediatric ADHD should be much higher than 5%. Len Adler puts it between 6% - 9%. That seems awfully high to me, but he's one of the experts.
What would you say is the incidence of a ADHD diagnosis in children of the more affluent schools?
- Scott<hi scott. :)
i am just one teacher. my experience may be quite skewed for a # of reasons. (if your interested let me know.)
before i answer, i contacted an old friend/colleague that was the department head for the special ed/learning "accommodated" kids. i was curious what he had to say.
just like depression there is a very wide spectrum these days on the type of kid kid that gets labeled under this umbrella. very different than when you and i went to school.there are kids that are severely mentally challenged; let's use a down's syndrome kid. special classes for them. i'm not including these kids in the discussion here.
then, there is a whole 'new' population of kids that fall under kids that have been dx'd w/some sort of 'learning disability.'terminology is interesting here. i have watched it change over the decades of my career.
this is the group i think you would be interested in; adhd, dyslexia, autism, depression, anxiety, bipolar, etc.
again, before i answer your specific question (suspense! ;)), it's also very interesting that adhd is dx'd almost 2x's as much on the east coast (high income) as it is on the west coast (high income). strange, no?
not too strange if you think about it. the city of berkley, CA tried to ban the use of ect several years ago. california has always been a more 'progressive' or 'natural' state in almost all ways. including education.
ok, now on to your specific question...
my colleague said at our school kids on psych drugs was between 15% to 20%. by far the most were on ritalin. his guess was half.that puts your answer at 7.5% to 10%. he also mentioned many kids were dx'd w/adhd and their parents chose to not 'drug' them. he said that if the parents and the kid put in the 'work' these kids were just as fine as the kids on meds.
he also mentioned that the #'s of kids on all sorts of meds is climbing. anxiety/depression seem to be the fastest possibly in his opinion.whew!
these #'s are what i would have said on my own. my classes had about 40 kids in them. i would say about 4 to 8 in each class were either on some psych med or 'labeled' with some learning mental processing deal.
back in the 70's at catholic school we would just get swats for acting out is sister mona's class. no meds then!
hope that answers some of your question.
Posted by johnLA on March 14, 2014, at 10:13:46
In reply to Re: Doctor: 'ADHD Doesn't Exist, Drugs Do More Harm... » Ronnjee, posted by phidippus on March 13, 2014, at 23:01:55
>it's considered a reasonable expectation for all kids to sit still for 6 hours, 5 days a week.
I don't think its an expectation at all.
>too many things have been pathologised
Or maybe just enough things have been pathologised.
Eric<eric;
not sure what you are saying here? i'm curious. :)
i am somewhat 'neutral' on meds for kids. leaning towards not giving them meds for adhd, unless absolutely necessary.
i think i am with ronjee on his statement that kids are 'expected' to go to school 5 days a week for 6 hours a day.
this schedule is over 200 years old. based on farming/etc. some progressive schools are now changing that schedule. i think that is good in my opinion. for all kids.
i think if you gave more kids options in regards to schedules, class types, etc the #'s of kids would be reduced who are labeled adhd.
also, 'standards' in each state is a very interesting concept. very political and financially influenced. for example; the textbook industry is corrupt in my opinion. these publisher's are hitting golf balls w/state senators all the time. in a state like california if a publisher contracts with a school district for books it is a multi-million dollar bonanza. i can tell you many of these books absolutely suck. but, we are forced to use them. imagine how difficult reading these books are for a kid who is already bored to death?
luckily there are some really good teachers who make a class exciting and educational for many kids. unfortunately their are also teachers that should never have been in a classroom to begin with.
again; in my experience some kids are simply bored with what is going on at school. giving a drug so they can 'focus' on something that they have absolutely know interest in seems wrong to me.
as a nation we continue to lag behind other countries in many subject areas. lots of reasons for this. let me know if you want to know my opinions why. and, i don't think a drug will be making-up the difference anytime soon.
einstein was a mess in high school. he was so bored supposedly in his 9th grade math class that he got the boot. i wonder if they would have put him on meds...
Posted by phidippus on March 14, 2014, at 11:08:44
In reply to Re: Doctor: 'ADHD Doesn't Exist, Drugs Do More Harm... » phidippus, posted by johnLA on March 14, 2014, at 10:13:46
> i am somewhat 'neutral' on meds for kids. leaning towards not giving them meds for adhd, unless absolutely necessary.
The fact remains is ADHD is real and the only real treatment for it is stimulant medication. I simply don't understand why there is such reluctance to use these medications.
> i think i am with ronjee on his statement that kids are 'expected' to go to school 5 days a week for 6 hours a day.
Trust me, children need the structure.
>the #'s of kids would be reduced who are labeled adhd.
Not 'labeled' ADHD, rather diagnosed with ADHD. A reduction in ADHD diagnosis will only come when psychologists make diagnostic criteria more stringent.
> again; in my experience some kids are simply bored with what is going on at school.
ADHD behaviors carry into the home as well
>giving a drug so they can 'focus' on something
When treating ADHD with stimulants, the drug does much more than increase focus.
Eric
Posted by Ronnjee on March 14, 2014, at 12:29:26
In reply to Re: Doctor: 'ADHD Doesn't Exist, Drugs Do More Harm... » johnLA, posted by phidippus on March 14, 2014, at 11:08:44
When my son was in high school, upon a recommendation from some school person, he went to a psych practitioner, who diagnosed him as ADHD (BF surprise!). He was always restless in school, which I understood from my own less-than-fun experiences. I wasn't real keen on giving him medication, even though at the time, I was still taking psych meds. His mother, however wanted to go along with it. He took Adderal for a few weeks, reported it made him feel like crap, and discontinued it. Here we have a very bright (130 IQ) kid, who simply finds his classes boring. Restlessness would be a pretty logical result. He finished high school just fine, went through some typical "finding himself" years. He is now 32, very well-adjusted and happy, married, has a job he actually likes. So, in this particular case the ADHD diagnosis was of absolutely no use to anybody, and meds only made matters worse.
An aside: When my son was in early puberty, his pediatrician wanted us to put him on some sort of hormones. The reason - because he was short! She said that the hormones would slow down his maturation, allowing him to grow more. His mother was actually going to allow this! There was NFW I going to let doctors mess around with his system, especially for such an idiotic reason, especially on a perfectly healthy kid. Did they really think they knew better than Mother Nature???!!! Yep, he's short, like his dad, who also entered puberty early. He's also just fine, as I described above, better than me, for sure. There are reasons why I am very cautious about medical interference. This is just the tip of the iceberg.
Posted by johnLA on March 14, 2014, at 12:49:59
In reply to Re: Doctor: 'ADHD Doesn't Exist, Drugs Do More Harm... » johnLA, posted by phidippus on March 14, 2014, at 11:08:44
> i think i am with ronjee on his statement that kids are 'expected' to go to school 5 days a week for 6 hours a day.
Trust me, children need the structure.
Eric<
you make very good points which i agree with.
as i said, i believe that adhd exists. what i am not too sure about is that medication is the best approach.
and, i completely agree that kids need structure. but, that structure does not have to be a 200+ year-old schedule based on dated agricultural influences.
just one example;.
eric; there are current schools now starting at 9am or later, instead of the traditional 8am. some even at 10am. of course they finish later. studies are showing that kids do much better academically, socially, etc when starting school later. many european and asian countries start school later. just one example of using a behavioral approach before a medication approach. these countries also have a lower rate of adhd AND score higher on the same type of standardized testing. of coursei know there are several other factors involved in this. a schedule is not a cure-all. just a simple one-off example. still, we have a very narrow view on many things here in the states. i guess growing-up in greece has given me a bit of another side perspective. (there the students have a 2+ hour lunch break where they go home and eat,nap and go back late afternoon.)
i even taught a twice-a-week night class. it was a very popular class at school. there was a lottery to get in. seniors only. i really think one of the reasons was for some kids it was easier to concentrate at that time. calm, quiet, uncrowded campus. these are some ways to help anyone, adhd or not, to concentrate easier.
i could give you more of my ideas since i feel very passionate about education and young people. but, i don't want to bore you. ;)
this is a complex issue. pretty much just like meds for other psychiatric conditions. we could 'discuss' this at great length. i feel there are no absolutes on this issue regarding treating adhd.
i will just finish with one of my original statements; medication is not the only way to treat adhd. especially when it involves children. i think medication is just 1 tool in the box. also, it wouldn't be my first choice. but, that is only my opinion and experience.
Posted by johnLA on March 14, 2014, at 13:30:07
In reply to Re: Doctor: 'ADHD Doesn't Exist, Drugs Do More Harm... » johnLA, posted by phidippus on March 14, 2014, at 11:08:44
Posted by SLS on March 14, 2014, at 15:14:52
In reply to Re: Doctor: 'ADHD Doesn't Exist, Drugs Do More Harm..., posted by johnLA on March 14, 2014, at 12:49:59
> as i said, i believe that adhd exists. what i am not too sure about is that medication is the best approach.
What would make you sure?
:-)
- Scott
Posted by Ronnjee on March 14, 2014, at 15:19:21
In reply to Re: Doctor: 'ADHD Doesn't Exist, Drugs Do More Harm... » johnLA, posted by SLS on March 14, 2014, at 15:14:52
Is not being sure a bad thing?
Posted by johnLA on March 14, 2014, at 15:58:29
In reply to Re: Doctor: 'ADHD Doesn't Exist, Drugs Do More Harm... » johnLA, posted by SLS on March 14, 2014, at 15:14:52
>What would make you sure?
:-)
- Scott<nice. :)
would have loved to have had you in class scott! eric too. you could sit wherever you'd like. eric i'm thinking would be right next to my desk. lol
one of the reasons i really loved teaching was how much i learned from the kids...
ironically i am not 'sure' what you are asking me here? no pun intended.
i mentioned earlier in the thread that there are no 'absolutes' when treating adhd in my experience. many factors come into play. just like other mental conditions. it's complicated.
so, what are you asking me exactly?
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