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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by poser938 on February 26, 2014, at 13:18:02
Yep, this is what I'm down to. I figured surely it would never come to this. But ECT is now my only option. I've read there are different forms of it, such as brief pulse and ultra-brief pulse. Unilateral and Bilateral.
Does anyone on Babble have any tips as to which form of ECT is the safest? With the least possibility of causing permanent cognitive defects?
Posted by phidippus on February 26, 2014, at 18:27:52
In reply to ECT... whats the best/safest form of ECT, posted by poser938 on February 26, 2014, at 13:18:02
Don't do it! We'll never hear the end of how it damaged your brain!
Eric
Posted by brk23 on February 26, 2014, at 20:00:43
In reply to ECT... whats the best/safest form of ECT, posted by poser938 on February 26, 2014, at 13:18:02
Id google video it,and see what people think of it
Posted by baseball55 on February 26, 2014, at 20:01:01
In reply to ECT... whats the best/safest form of ECT, posted by poser938 on February 26, 2014, at 13:18:02
Bilateral will affect your memory. Unilateral might not. Unilateral is considered safest and bilateral is not used unless nothing else has worked. Don't know about short-pulse, etc.
ECT did not work for me, neither unilateral or bilateral. But bilateral made me a zombie and for weeks afterwards, I couldn't even have told you what street I lived on.
Posted by bleauberry on February 26, 2014, at 20:04:45
In reply to ECT... whats the best/safest form of ECT, posted by poser938 on February 26, 2014, at 13:18:02
None that I know of. Come to think of it, I could be wrong, but I have never heard of anyone who had any kind of ECT who did not have some kind of cognitive/memory changes afterward.
Mine was bilateral.
Posted by johnLA on February 26, 2014, at 22:37:23
In reply to ECT... whats the best/safest form of ECT, posted by poser938 on February 26, 2014, at 13:18:02
poser-
i know you have been suffering. for a long time. are you suicidal or just really really tired of 'it?' i ask, because what i am about to say really depends on where you are mentally...
i had right unilateral.
i did not suffer permanent brain damage. i did have some memory problems for a bit after each treatment. but, within days of my last treatment i was fine.
it did work. amazingly so. but, only lasted a few weeks. do i regret doing it? sometimes. mostly due to stigma. but, i also did it because i wanted to get better. i find some comfort in that fact. i was thinking about suicide for the first time in my life. this scared the hell out of me. the ect was scary, but nothing like thinking about checking-out.
i would highly suggest getting multiple opinions from several pdocs. doc's that have no interest in actually doing the ect to you. hoping they will have objective opinions. i also suggest NOT researching too much on the internet. most of what you will find will be negative and even anti-psychiatry.
i would also suggest finding a well-known university or hospital with top-rated psych programs/facilities. (i was at ucla. ranked very highly. was treated with kindness and respect.) these places are usually up-to-date on the latest ect procedures. hoping you have something like this nearby or that you can get to.
i am assuming you have tried all sorts of meds? from all sorts of classes? be honest with yourself about this. all of us want the pain to stop right now. personally, i look at ect as just another failed med attempt. i may have been very lucky to be able to say that. if i had bilateral or a different doc maybe i would have a different opinion now.
it seems most of what i had read in regards to negative experiences are either from a; bilateral b. too many trx c. ect done prior to the 1990's d. bad doctor/facilities
poser; it is not a 'magic bullet.' if it does work (and yes, you will find stories of it working for people) most will either have 'maintenance' ect or continue with medication. are you willing to do this? can you do this emotionally, financially, and so on?
what about tms? especially the new one called 'deep' tms? can you wait for this?
sometimes i think about trying ect again. there are well over 100,000 people a year in the states who have it done each year. by far the vast majority are not on forums complaining. some are actually very high functioning. you will read about them too in your search. but, they are a minority on the net. not sure if their numbers are greater in the real world. i think most people who it does work for get on with life and don't post 'success' stories. how many 'success' stories has dr bob have posted here for example? and this is mostly a med site.
finally, my rec is unless you are extremely suicidal, take some time on all this. it's big decision.
you are also welcome to babble mail me if you want more specific info about my experience. :)
take care poser.
john
Posted by Phil on February 26, 2014, at 23:59:25
In reply to Re: ECT... whats the best/safest form of ECT, posted by bleauberry on February 26, 2014, at 20:04:45
I can think of one, my mother.
Posted by Phil on February 27, 2014, at 0:00:25
In reply to Re: ECT... whats the best/safest form of ECT, posted by bleauberry on February 26, 2014, at 20:04:45
ok afterward, a few months.
Posted by Phillipa on February 27, 2014, at 9:04:03
In reply to Re: ECT... whats the best/safest form of ECT » bleauberry, posted by Phil on February 27, 2014, at 0:00:25
I never had it but was in a therapy group where a young college student had it. She was extremely upset as she couldn't return to college due to memory. I questioned my pdoc the one who prescribed it for her. He said to me that it is only done when one is so suicidal they have no other choice. I asked about her memory as It upset me. He thought it would return in about three months. The other time working in psych and went to ECT with a patient. Afterward he didn't remember a thing. As to what happened to him no idea as I switched hospitals to learn other skills. As this was my first job and thought I should work in a medical setting first. Phillipa
Posted by poser938 on February 27, 2014, at 20:43:38
In reply to Re: ECT... whats the best/safest form of ECT, posted by Phillipa on February 27, 2014, at 9:04:03
Well, thank you guys. I just wanted to see what you had to say about ECT. And what tips you could offer. I'm just not responding to anything, bad or good, anymore. I tried rTMS about 2 years ago with no benefit from it. I'm about to research on Healthcare.gov for an insurance plan for me to purchase. If it covers Deep TMS, and if I can find Deep TMS in my area, I will try having it done. I'd even prefer having Deep Brain Stimulation done, but I doubt that will ever happen.
Somehow, I feel my situation is uniquely suited for ECT. As long as I can avoid severe, permanent cognitive deficits. And I feel about like I've got nothing to lose. But I'm sure ECT could make me worse. Yes I'm suicidal and extremely scared.
I believe my horrible mental health right now is fundamentally caused by an imbalance in the release of various neurotransmitters. I had hoped I could relieve this with medications, but I'm not responding to any medications at all anymore.
Posted by poser938 on February 27, 2014, at 20:47:58
In reply to Re: ECT... whats the best/safest form of ECT » bleauberry, posted by Phil on February 27, 2014, at 0:00:25
And yes, I've been to many different psychiatrists over the past few years. A few of them mentioned ECT at some point. My current one mentioned it a couple of months ago, and I told her I didn't see it as an option. But just a few days ago it just clicked in my mind that I'm at the end of the medication road.
I live in Tennessee, and I'll be looking into the program at Vanderbilt. It is supposed to be a fantastic hospital.
Posted by Phillipa on February 27, 2014, at 22:04:24
In reply to Re: ECT... whats the best/safest form of ECT, posted by poser938 on February 27, 2014, at 20:47:58
Poser you will win at this yet. I have no doubts Phillipa
Posted by poser938 on February 27, 2014, at 22:27:04
In reply to Re: ECT... whats the best/safest form of ECT » poser938, posted by Phillipa on February 27, 2014, at 22:04:24
> Poser you will win at this yet. I have no doubts Phillipa
Thank you Phillipa :)
There's a line from a song that I keep thinking of...
"Outside you see the dark woods, but you don't know there's fields of gold ahead."
It kinda cheers me up.
Posted by Phillipa on February 28, 2014, at 22:02:41
In reply to Re: ECT... whats the best/safest form of ECT, posted by poser938 on February 27, 2014, at 22:27:04
There you go keep the music playing to boost your mood!!!! Phillipa
Posted by LostBoyinNC45 on March 1, 2014, at 0:53:22
In reply to Re: ECT... whats the best/safest form of ECT » bleauberry, posted by Phil on February 26, 2014, at 23:59:25
Ive never had ECT, but Ive had an ECT consultation before. I was also in the very early stage rTMS clinical trials back in the late nineties, when rTMS was being touted as a possible future replacement for ECT.
I will give you my take on ECT, from my limited understanding of it.
First, psychiatry has in the last ten years or so made a major change legally regarding ECT. I observed up until about oh, ten years ago or so, psychiatrists would pretty much refuse to acknowledge memory side effects from ECT. The attitude was "deny, deny, deny." That was my impression of psychiatry and ECT.
Then all of a sudden, psychiatry began publicly acknowledging that in some cases, a minority of cases, there was a chance ECT could cause long term memory problems. And there was a chance ECT could make you confused and stuff. In other words, psychiatry seemed to change its attitude with regards to acknowledging that ECT induced memory/cognition problems is foreseeable.
Foreseeability is a key part of winning a law suit. And by "warning" patients and patients families that it is "foreseeable" that ECT very well may greatly help your severe depression BUT it also might cause some short/long term memory/cognition problems, the shock docs are covering their *ss*s. They can come back if you complain after ECT and they can say, "hey, we told you about it BEFORE you had ECT, yet you continued on and had ECT. YOU are responsible for your own memory loss! Afterall, it was foreseeable and we warned you about it.
Before ten or twelve years ago, my impression was psychiatry absolutely would not acknowledge any foreseeability regarding ECT induced memory/cognition problems. And insisted that any ECT induced memory/cognition problem was a fluke, not foreseeable, unusual, etc. Hence, it was deny from the very beginning.
Ive seen that change over the years and I never even had ECT. To me, that change in admitting foreseeability is significant.
Eric AKA "LostBoyinNC"
Posted by LostBoyinNC45 on March 1, 2014, at 1:11:53
In reply to Re: ECT... whats the best/safest form of ECT, posted by LostBoyinNC45 on March 1, 2014, at 0:53:22
Besides the change in admitting it is foreseeable you might develop memory problems after having ECT, the other things I have learned about ECT are the following:
1) the shock docs themselves will readily admit now they dont know how long ECT will work for you and most of their cases, in order to maintain the ECT anti-depressant/anti-psychotic effect, you have to have once or twice a month "maintenance" ECT.
In all honesty, that does not sound that bad to me. It would probably make working or even driving a car difficult, however. And I would not like that part.
2) I learned if you have sleep apnea, its REAL IMPORTANT for your sleep doc and the anesthesia doctor during ECT to know that you have apnea. Why? Because the drugs they use to put you under will relax your airway and even suppress muscles used in breathing. Hence, they need to know that info to make sure they have to work harder to keep your blood oxygen levels up while you are under anesthesia, having ECT. Because anytime your blood oxygen levels go to 88% or under, it is a default medical emergency and that goes outside psychiatry, that is across the board. 88% and under blood oxygen and its call 911...medical emergency.
Most of these psych meds make you fat and it is my personal suspicion that most TRD patients have some degree of sleep disordered breathing. Any sedating medication can make SBD worse. Anesthesia can make SBD worse. If they dont know about your SBD, they wont take thorough precautions.
3) ECT is "high maintenance." Its kind of like CPAP therapy or taking MAOIs properly. You have to put a lot of work into it. Its expensive, small details can matter a lot, if you get a shock doc who does not pay attention to small details, they can mess you up worse.
4) I think ECT has helped a lot of people in the USA get out of severe depression. The ones ECT helps a lot, I doubt you will find them going around admitting they had ECT to many people and I doubt you will find them wanting to hang out on a place like this board. The ones that ECT really does help, you will just not hear about because they went back to the world.
I think the ECT cases you will hear about the most are the ones that are fffed up. The mistake cases, the ECT cases where somebody was shocked in a state hospital against their will for behavioral control reasons and the procedures used were shoddy. I believe there are plenty of people who have had ECT who have gotten seriously fffed up from it.
If I ever have ECT, I will make sure they keep my blood oxygen levels up really high the entire time. I will make it clear that is one of my main concerns, not the electricity going thru my brain or the seizure. They know what the limits are regarding the electricity and I dont believe limited seizures are bad for mood disorders, I believe full seizures are actually good for severe mood disorders. I think the part thats potentially bad is if your anesthesia is fffed up and your blood oxygen dips much for even a short time period. I think thats just bad for your brain, period.
I dont think ECT should EVER be used for behavioral control, like it used to be used for in the olden days. It should only be used for severe, chronic, refractory mood disorders that are causing disability.
Eric AKA "LostBoyinNC"
Posted by poser938 on March 1, 2014, at 11:36:14
In reply to Re: ECT... whats the best/safest form of ECT, posted by LostBoyinNC45 on March 1, 2014, at 1:11:53
Thanks Eric, I've pretty much figured out that the Medical Industry does indeed spread propaganda just like any other money making industry.
Its all about money, power, and control for them. The health of the patients isn't the top priority.
Knowing this, I just have no other option than just to try ECT. I can't just lay around in my dysfunctional state, not really doing anything to make it betterI 've read about a more recent version of it called "Ultra-Brief ECT", where, if I understand it correctly, the volts are passed through your brain for a shorter amount of time, in hopes of reducing severe side effects. So I'll likely be seeking to have this version of ECT done.
And thanks for the tip about sleep apnea. Though I did have a sleep study done a few years ago, and there were no signs that I have sleep apnea.
Posted by bleauberry on March 1, 2014, at 12:24:35
In reply to ECT... whats the best/safest form of ECT, posted by poser938 on February 26, 2014, at 13:18:02
This is a bizarre thought you won't hear anywhere else in the world today.
ECT works by killing infectious organisms in the brain. There, I said it.
Why would I say such a crazy thing?
Well, actually, obviously things are more complex than that. But let me share with you this. I took notes during ECT. Good thing. In them I wrote that after each session, for a day, I felt horrible, worse depression, anxiety, butterflies, exhausted, sore. Well of course, you just got shocked by a high dose of electricity, right?
Today I know that pattern as a Herxheimer reaction. The exact same depression, the exact same butterflies in the stomach, the exact same everything....that happens with die-off from antibiotics.
We'll never know. I'm just sayin'. Obviously ECT doesn't do a good permanent job. Only antibiotics and herbs and foods can do that. Things that heal. ECT doesn't heal.
Posted by europerep on March 3, 2014, at 14:56:14
In reply to Re: ECT... whats the best/safest form of ECT, posted by bleauberry on March 1, 2014, at 12:24:35
> This is a bizarre thought you won't hear anywhere else in the world today.
>
> ECT works by killing infectious organisms in the brain. There, I said it.Oh please. What's next? Are you gonna tell us that ketamine too is actually an antibiotic? That magnetic pulses kill infections?
Do you ever try to falsify your ideas, or do you just accept randomly whatever "fact" you find sympathetic? There's probably a reason why we don't hear these thoughts anywhere else in the world. It would be so easy for drug companies to develop new antibiotics and market them to psychiatric patients, but "for some reason" noone's going after it.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on March 4, 2014, at 13:55:04
In reply to Re: ECT... whats the best/safest form of ECT, posted by bleauberry on March 1, 2014, at 12:24:35
Unfortunately, if you were to use enough electricity to kill microorganisms, you would be entirely brain dead :/
> This is a bizarre thought you won't hear anywhere else in the world today.
>
> ECT works by killing infectious organisms in the brain. There, I said it.
>
> Why would I say such a crazy thing?
>
> Well, actually, obviously things are more complex than that. But let me share with you this. I took notes during ECT. Good thing. In them I wrote that after each session, for a day, I felt horrible, worse depression, anxiety, butterflies, exhausted, sore. Well of course, you just got shocked by a high dose of electricity, right?
>
> Today I know that pattern as a Herxheimer reaction. The exact same depression, the exact same butterflies in the stomach, the exact same everything....that happens with die-off from antibiotics.
>
> We'll never know. I'm just sayin'. Obviously ECT doesn't do a good permanent job. Only antibiotics and herbs and foods can do that. Things that heal. ECT doesn't heal.
This is the end of the thread.
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