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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Phillipa on December 20, 2013, at 22:47:28
Medscape Medical News > PsychiatryMarijuana Use Linked to Schizophrenia-like Brain Changes
Megan Brooks
December 19, 2013
Long-term marijuana use has been linked to structural brain changes similar to those observed in schizophrenia patients, and these changes correlate with poorer working memory, new research shows.
A study conducted by investigators at Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine in Chicago, Illinois, showed that teens who smoked marijuana daily for about 3 years performed poorly on tests of working memory and had abnormal changes in brain structures akin to those seen in patients with schizophrenia.
This study links the long-term use of marijuana to "concerning brain abnormalities that appear to last for at least a few years after people stop using it," lead investigator Matthew Smith, PhD, assistant research professor in psychiatry and behavioral sciences, said in a statement.
"With the movement to decriminalize marijuana, we need more research to understand its effect on the brain," he added.
In addition, memory problems and brain changes were observed 2 years after the teens stopped smoking marijuana, suggesting long-term use has long-term, negative effects.
The study was published online December 15 in Schizophrenia Bulletin.
Structural Changes
A total of 97 young people participated, including 44 healthy individuals who had no history of substance use disorder, 10 healthy individuals with cannabis-use disorder (CUD), 28 individuals with schizophrenia with no history of substance use disorder, and 15 individuals with schizophrenia and a CUD history.
Marijuana users started smoking daily between the ages of 16 and 17 years and continued for about 3 years. At the time of the study, they had been marijuana-free for approximately 2 years. The marijuana users did not abuse any other drugs.
Structural magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) studies revealed "shape differences" in the striatum, globus pallidus, and thalamus in the healthy and schizophrenic participants with CUD. These memory-related brain structures appeared to shrink or collapse inward in the CUD groups, possibly suggesting a decline in neurons, the researchers note.
Marijuana-related striatal and thalamic shape differences correlated with poorer working memory on standard tests and younger age at onset of CUD in both healthy participants and schizophrenic marijuana users.
The researchers point out that most of the schizophrenic users met diagnostic criteria for CUD prior to the onset of schizophrenia, suggesting that long-term marijuana use might contribute to the underlying disease process.
"If someone has a family history of schizophrenia, they are increasing their risk of developing schizophrenia if they abuse marijuana," said Dr. Smith.
Heavy marijuana use "may have dangerous implications for young people who are developing or have developed mental disorders," added cosenior author John Csernansky, MD, chair of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine and Northwestern Memorial Hospital.
"This paper is among the first to reveal that the use of marijuana may contribute to the changes in brain structure that have been associated with having schizophrenia," he said.
The investigators note that their data are cross-sectional and therefore cannot indicate causality.
Still, they point out that, given the potential impact of cannabis on working memory and the underlying structures that support it, more careful consideration should be given to efforts to legalize recreational and medicinal cannabis.
"Of special concern is that cannabis use could begin long before an adolescent or young adult would know if they were in one of these vulnerable groups," they conclude.
Memory Findings Key
This is a "very good study," Matthijs Bossong, PhD, of the Institute of Psychiatry, Department of Psychosis Studies, King's College London, in the United Kingdom, who was not involved in the study, told Medscape Medical News.
He said the "particular strengths" are the inclusion of healthy control individuals with and without CUD and schizophrenia patients with and without CUD and the correlation between working memory function and anatomic changes.
"Most structural MRI studies just report anatomical abnormalities between groups without mentioning the functional impact," Dr. Bossong explained. "In my opinion, that structural abnormalities are related to working memory function is the news in this paper.""It's still unclear whether cannabis has a bigger impact on schizophrenia patients than on healthy controls. They describe it qualitatively, but it has not been tested statistically," he noted.
Regarding the debate around the legalization of recreational and medicinal cannabis use, Dr. Bossong said it is important to note that the authors have shown structural and functional abnormalities in groups with a CUD, "which is in line with other papers that have demonstrated that particularly heavy cannabis use may have negative effects on the brain."
"The beneficial effects of cannabis prescribed for medicinal purposes (eg, chronic pain) may significantly outweigh the more subtle negative effects," Dr. Bossong said.
The research was supported by grants from the National Institute of Mental Health and the National Institute on Drug Abuse. The authors and Dr. Bossong report no relevant financial relationships.
Schizophr Bull. Published online December 15, 2013
Posted by Moishe Pipik on December 21, 2013, at 11:34:39
In reply to Marijuna Use Linked to Schizophrenia In Teens, posted by Phillipa on December 20, 2013, at 22:47:28
Same source, opposite conclusion:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/21/teens-marijuana-brain-tissue-alcohol_n_2331779.html
Pick your favorite
Posted by linkadge on December 21, 2013, at 12:23:59
In reply to Re: Marijuna Use Linked to Schizophrenia In Teens, posted by Moishe Pipik on December 21, 2013, at 11:34:39
The problem with the first posted study is that it is cross-sectional not longitudinal. In other words, they just found an association between cannabis use and brain alterations.
It could well be that individuals with prodromal schizophrenia (hence brain alterations) were more likely to use pot.
Linkadge
Posted by bleauberry on December 21, 2013, at 14:12:36
In reply to Marijuna Use Linked to Schizophrenia In Teens, posted by Phillipa on December 20, 2013, at 22:47:28
The title is misleading. The article is about heavy marijuana usage, not simply marijuana use.
In the early years, all the science accused marijuana of causing depression and schizo. More recent science has shown those outcomes only happen with a small minority of people who have a particular gene polymorphism.
For most people, marijuana is a potent antidepressant after about 5 days of use, and is also one of the best anti-anxiety substances on the planet, pain killer, and will only make someone feel paranoid if they consume way too much. Even then, that wears off in an hour or two.
The only groups of people in the country at this time who do not favor medical marijuana are seniors over 65 years of age, and apparently some stubborn scientists.
I could pick this article to pieces but what's the point. I can see how they tried to make it a good study, and from their point of view they think they did that, but in fact it is chock full of errors.
>> Medscape Medical News > Psychiatry
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> Marijuana Use Linked to Schizophrenia-like Brain Changes
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> Megan Brooks
> December 19, 2013
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> Long-term marijuana use has been linked to structural brain changes similar to those observed in schizophrenia patients, and these changes correlate with poorer working memory, new research shows.
>
> A study conducted by investigators at Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine in Chicago, Illinois, showed that teens who smoked marijuana daily for about 3 years performed poorly on tests of working memory and had abnormal changes in brain structures akin to those seen in patients with schizophrenia.
>
> This study links the long-term use of marijuana to "concerning brain abnormalities that appear to last for at least a few years after people stop using it," lead investigator Matthew Smith, PhD, assistant research professor in psychiatry and behavioral sciences, said in a statement.
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> "With the movement to decriminalize marijuana, we need more research to understand its effect on the brain," he added.
>
> In addition, memory problems and brain changes were observed 2 years after the teens stopped smoking marijuana, suggesting long-term use has long-term, negative effects.
>
> The study was published online December 15 in Schizophrenia Bulletin.
>
> Structural Changes
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> A total of 97 young people participated, including 44 healthy individuals who had no history of substance use disorder, 10 healthy individuals with cannabis-use disorder (CUD), 28 individuals with schizophrenia with no history of substance use disorder, and 15 individuals with schizophrenia and a CUD history.
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> Marijuana users started smoking daily between the ages of 16 and 17 years and continued for about 3 years. At the time of the study, they had been marijuana-free for approximately 2 years. The marijuana users did not abuse any other drugs.
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> Structural magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) studies revealed "shape differences" in the striatum, globus pallidus, and thalamus in the healthy and schizophrenic participants with CUD. These memory-related brain structures appeared to shrink or collapse inward in the CUD groups, possibly suggesting a decline in neurons, the researchers note.
>
> Marijuana-related striatal and thalamic shape differences correlated with poorer working memory on standard tests and younger age at onset of CUD in both healthy participants and schizophrenic marijuana users.
>
> The researchers point out that most of the schizophrenic users met diagnostic criteria for CUD prior to the onset of schizophrenia, suggesting that long-term marijuana use might contribute to the underlying disease process.
>
> "If someone has a family history of schizophrenia, they are increasing their risk of developing schizophrenia if they abuse marijuana," said Dr. Smith.
>
> Heavy marijuana use "may have dangerous implications for young people who are developing or have developed mental disorders," added cosenior author John Csernansky, MD, chair of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine and Northwestern Memorial Hospital.
>
> "This paper is among the first to reveal that the use of marijuana may contribute to the changes in brain structure that have been associated with having schizophrenia," he said.
>
> The investigators note that their data are cross-sectional and therefore cannot indicate causality.
>
> Still, they point out that, given the potential impact of cannabis on working memory and the underlying structures that support it, more careful consideration should be given to efforts to legalize recreational and medicinal cannabis.
>
> "Of special concern is that cannabis use could begin long before an adolescent or young adult would know if they were in one of these vulnerable groups," they conclude.
>
> Memory Findings Key
>
> This is a "very good study," Matthijs Bossong, PhD, of the Institute of Psychiatry, Department of Psychosis Studies, King's College London, in the United Kingdom, who was not involved in the study, told Medscape Medical News.
>
> He said the "particular strengths" are the inclusion of healthy control individuals with and without CUD and schizophrenia patients with and without CUD and the correlation between working memory function and anatomic changes.
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>
>
>
>
>
>
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> "Most structural MRI studies just report anatomical abnormalities between groups without mentioning the functional impact," Dr. Bossong explained. "In my opinion, that structural abnormalities are related to working memory function is the news in this paper."
>
> "It's still unclear whether cannabis has a bigger impact on schizophrenia patients than on healthy controls. They describe it qualitatively, but it has not been tested statistically," he noted.
>
> Regarding the debate around the legalization of recreational and medicinal cannabis use, Dr. Bossong said it is important to note that the authors have shown structural and functional abnormalities in groups with a CUD, "which is in line with other papers that have demonstrated that particularly heavy cannabis use may have negative effects on the brain."
>
> "The beneficial effects of cannabis prescribed for medicinal purposes (eg, chronic pain) may significantly outweigh the more subtle negative effects," Dr. Bossong said.
>
> The research was supported by grants from the National Institute of Mental Health and the National Institute on Drug Abuse. The authors and Dr. Bossong report no relevant financial relationships.
>
> Schizophr Bull. Published online December 15, 2013
>
Posted by poser938 on December 21, 2013, at 15:29:56
In reply to Re: Marijuna Use Linked to Schizophrenia In Teens, posted by Moishe Pipik on December 21, 2013, at 11:34:39
I'm of the opinion that our brains and our bodies aren't meant to be altered in any way, especially with the primitive, ham fisted chemicals designed in a lab, or by many herbs found in nature. Just because something is natural doesn't mean our brain needs to be altered it.
Our understanding of the way anything other than what is needed in the correct amounts, such as vitamins and minerals. And the right amount of healthy cholesterol. With our current understanding of the brain, to recognize anything other than what our bodies crucially need as safe and overall healthy for our brains is just plain ignorant.
For example, my psychiatrist prescribed Thyroxine a few days ago. And I read up on peoples experiences with it. Many complained of hair loss. But the patient info sheet that came with at the pharmacy said there are "no side effects associated with Thyroxine, since it is just replenishing what the body needs"
And who's to say artificially increasing a certain thyroid hormone, or neurotransmitter, even if its through an herb, who's to say your brain/body won't down regulate its own production even further over time.
Posted by linkadge on December 21, 2013, at 15:32:01
In reply to Re: Marijuna Use Linked to Schizophrenia In Teens, posted by poser938 on December 21, 2013, at 15:29:56
I suppose you drink no coffee, tea, or eat any chocolate?
Posted by poser938 on December 21, 2013, at 16:03:10
In reply to Re: Marijuna Use Linked to Schizophrenia In Teens » poser938, posted by linkadge on December 21, 2013, at 15:32:01
I sure do. I consumed all 3 of those. I used to never drink coffee or soda until I became mentally ill. My cognition and energy is horrible and I've no choice. But, I do recognize it is a short term fix that isn't healthy. For all I know I'm adding extra stress to my heart with caffeine. And there's no telling how much my brain will like all the caffeine I've consumed over the years.
BUT I do recognize that there are those who simply cannot tolerate even 1 soda because of the caffeine.
I think you're misunderstanding what I wrote. I was just simply saying that when someone has a terrible reaction to one of the many chemicals in food,herbs, or medication, we should not discount their experience by saying "This chemical is safe and effective",be specially like we do with psychiatric meds. Everyone's personal experience needs to be looked at and accounted for. And not discounted in any way.
Doctors used to even think cigarettes could in no way come with the terrible health effects we now know they do.
Our knowledge is far too little to declare Marijuana is healthy. And especially when it comes to due glaring it as healthy for the majority f the public who are of a sound mind and healthy body.
Posted by poser938 on December 21, 2013, at 17:03:23
In reply to Re: Marijuna Use Linked to Schizophrenia In Teens, posted by poser938 on December 21, 2013, at 16:03:10
Even if the chemicals in the Marijuana plant are found to do no harm to the brain body. Let's not forget that breathing in burnt particulates is bad for your health.
But overall, I think I'd support restricting Prozac and making non-smokable forms of it more widespread.
Posted by linkadge on December 21, 2013, at 19:24:50
In reply to Re: Marijuna Use Linked to Schizophrenia In Teens, posted by poser938 on December 21, 2013, at 17:03:23
marijuana can be vaporized if needed.
moderate coffee consumption is linked to lower rates of heart disease. The polyphenols in coffee are thought to have cardioprotective effects.
I believe that if one obtains superior relief from a medicinal plan than from a pharmaceutical
then go for it.To say that marijuana hasn't been studied enough is nonsense. There's probably more research on it than on any single antidepressant. Although a link between pot and schizophrenia has been suggested, I know of no studies which suggest a definite cause and effect relationship.
paxil can cause birth defects, apathy, sexual dysfunction, cognitive dysfunction, mitochondrial damage, paranoia, mania, hallucinations, glucose intolerance, diabetes, insomnia, severe withdrawal...you name it. SSRIs have also been lined to structural changes to the brain.
To say that somebody with say an anxiety disorder should always chose pot over an SSRI is not logical IMHO.
Linkadge
Posted by poser938 on December 21, 2013, at 21:42:11
In reply to Re: Marijuna Use Linked to Schizophrenia In Teens, posted by linkadge on December 21, 2013, at 19:24:50
I see where you're coming from and you are right.
Posted by alexandra_k on December 22, 2013, at 1:59:26
In reply to Marijuna Use Linked to Schizophrenia In Teens, posted by Phillipa on December 20, 2013, at 22:47:28
yeah, correlation doesn't show causation. one can't distinguish a cause from an effect. it might be that those individuals who are developing schizophrenia are more likely to heavily use mj in an attempt to self medicate.
i see that i was drawn to all my substance use and abuse in the past in my attempt to do precisely that. many a heavily self medicated weekend or even week saved me many a hospitalisation. and really... more harms came to me from too hasty discharge than ever came to me via detox.
the thing with mj... well... i guess it depends on what you want to do / what you value in life (if anything). but, er, try studying on it and then sitting an exam. i mean... many a student is drawn to philosophy precisely because they think they can get really smashed off their faces and blurt out an essay at 2am without ever having attended class. and i guess it might earn you a c or perhaps even a b in first year if you are smart... but that is about as far as that strategy will take you.
because it does impact negatively on those kinds of cognitive tasks...
but then... so does a hefty dose of antipsychotic.
hur.
Posted by linkadge on December 22, 2013, at 14:17:35
In reply to Re: Marijuna Use Linked to Schizophrenia In Teens, posted by alexandra_k on December 22, 2013, at 1:59:26
In lower doses, it could (theoretically) improve performance for certain individuals. Pot increases dopamine in the prefrontal cortex and in the limbic system. The former effect might improve cognition in certain circumstances.
There was a study that showed that schizophrenics seem to use in a dose range that would enhance prefrontal dopamine release, but not so much limbic release.
Smoking tobacco is highly prevalent in schizophrenics. Few seem to suggest, however, that smoking tobacco increases the risk of schizophrenia. In fact, some studies suggest that tobacco smoking schizophrenics tolerate antipsychotics better and tend to have better cognition and clinical outcomes.
Linkadge
Posted by baseball55 on December 22, 2013, at 18:31:50
In reply to Re: Marijuna Use Linked to Schizophrenia In Teens, posted by linkadge on December 22, 2013, at 14:17:35
I find this discussion strange, because, just last week, the NYTimes reported on a study at Harvard Medical School and McLean that found no link between schizophrenia and marijuana use.
My nephew has schizophrenia and my brother tells me that marijuana helps him more than his anti-psychotics do.
Posted by vbs on December 22, 2013, at 18:53:58
In reply to Re: Marijuna Use Linked to Schizophrenia In Teens, posted by baseball55 on December 22, 2013, at 18:31:50
I have schizo affective disorder & smoke marijuana occasionally. It makes me feel better.
Posted by Phil on December 23, 2013, at 9:30:24
In reply to Re: Marijuna Use Linked to Schizophrenia In Teens » baseball55, posted by vbs on December 22, 2013, at 18:53:58
I read an article from Harvard Health yesterday and she had some compelling facts. At the end she said something like, of course we don't know if any of this is true. fail.
Fact is most Americans want it legalized and I think it will be legal for the first time in my life.
If
I had a parent with schizophrenia I probably wouldn't smoke. This propaganda could tie in to the smoke, like cigarettes. Vaporizers will fix that.
If all they have is speculation then it's no different than 40 years ago and I way tired of the b*llsh*t.
Posted by alexandra_k on December 23, 2013, at 13:59:43
In reply to Re: Marijuna Use Linked to Schizophrenia In Teens, posted by Phil on December 23, 2013, at 9:30:24
> I read an article from Harvard Health yesterday and she had some compelling facts. At the end she said something like, of course we don't know if any of this is true. fail.
perhaps it was that there was strong evidence for correlation...
but that since we can't infer causation from correlation (maybe mj is a causative factor in the development of the illness OR maybe people who are developing the illness are more likely to turn to mj in an attempt to feel better / self medicate) it would be irresponsible to conclude the former since the later can't be ruled out.
Posted by linkadge on December 24, 2013, at 12:42:16
In reply to Re: Marijuna Use Linked to Schizophrenia In Teens, posted by alexandra_k on December 23, 2013, at 13:59:43
Sure, if there were a 100% cure for mental illness, nobody would need to turn to alternatives like marijuana.
The problem is that conventional medications do not cure (or even adequately treat) many patients with mental illness. They don't want you doing pot, but they're fine with your taking 5 anti-epileptics. They don't want you smoking pot, but they're fine with you on handfuls of painkillers. They don't want you smoking pot, but they will put you on paxil, zyprexa and clonazepam in one breath.
Its not that they are flat out wrong about risks, its that they distort the relative importance of them in terms of patient wellness and quality of life.
Linkadge
Posted by vbs on December 24, 2013, at 17:47:14
In reply to Re: Marijuna Use Linked to Schizophrenia In Teens, posted by linkadge on December 24, 2013, at 12:42:16
Yeah they really don't want you smoking pot, but they will prescribe two anti-psychotic drugs along with an antidepressant. I smoked earlier today, and will do so again tonight, and I felt pretty good. I slept for about 5-6 hours.
Posted by vbs on December 25, 2013, at 0:44:50
In reply to Re: Marijuna Use Linked to Schizophrenia In Teens » linkadge, posted by vbs on December 24, 2013, at 17:47:14
I was baked most of yesterday, Christmas Eve. Now that's living. :-)
Posted by sigismund on December 26, 2013, at 19:03:47
In reply to Re: Marijuana Use Linked to Schizophrenia In Teens, posted by vbs on December 25, 2013, at 0:44:50
They are just trying to figure out how to do the U turn with grace and without attracting attention.
This is the end of the thread.
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