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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Phillipa on June 23, 2013, at 18:44:53
In reply to Re: Remeron and Zoloft for MDD, my 13 yo daughter » laurah952, posted by SLS on June 23, 2013, at 17:09:49
Mom Laura said she also is bipolar. Laura what meds are you currently taking? Frequently the meds that work for a family member can also work for another family member. Phillipa
Posted by LAURAH952 on June 23, 2013, at 20:53:04
In reply to Re: Remeron and Zoloft for MDD, my 13 yo daughter, posted by Phillipa on June 23, 2013, at 18:44:53
> Mom Laura said she also is bipolar. Laura what meds are you currently taking? Frequently the meds that work for a family member can also work for another family member. Phillipa
Hello,
I take:
CYMBALTA 60mg (works well)
KLONOPIN 6mg (for 25 years, panic attacks which daughter does not have)
TRAZADONE 50-100 prn
Just stopped CARBAMAZEPINE 400mg - doesn't seem to help, more depressed - have tried so many other mood stabilizers and none really work - my bipolar II just isn't bad enough to keep trying.Thanks!
Laura
Posted by Phillipa on June 23, 2013, at 21:26:01
In reply to Re: Remeron and Zoloft for MDD, my 13 yo daughter » Phillipa, posted by LAURAH952 on June 23, 2013, at 20:53:04
Laura so in a way you are ahead of the game as you may have the same as Daughter so then what didn't work for you might be a med to skip. How bout trileptal as a mood stabilizer? Didn't make me anxious. It was an add on for depression more dysthymia. Low dose. Phillipa
Posted by LAURAH952 on June 23, 2013, at 22:32:13
In reply to Re: Remeron and Zoloft for MDD, my 13 yo daughter » laurah952, posted by europerep on June 23, 2013, at 17:19:56
OH MY GOD!!! I'm so new at this; what Lou Pilder went on about has me hysterically in tears, and more scared to death than ever before!!! Thank you so much for shedding light on that!!!!
I was only recently diagnosed with bi-polar II based mostly on my rapid speech and insomnia. Not a single med has made a difference, and I don't have mood swings - just feeling ok to depressed at times. Still, I will be asking Taylor's psychiatrists about it.
Taylor was an inpatient for 10 days, and her diagnosis was MDD. The meds (zoloft and seroquel) were started at that time. She showed some improvement and was finally sleeping.
She really showed great improvement a few weeks after her out-patient pdoc increased her zoloft, and decreased her seroquel. (100mg, and 200mg respectively) She then lowered the seroquel to 100mg and she was even better, as she was less tired during the day.
She went from laying in bed all weekend, crying at school, not seeing friends, cutting herself, and completely obsessed with thoughts of suicide to going out with friends, enjoying herself, and only having brief moments of suicidal thoughts with minor ups and downs. (still not good enough)
Taylor wanted to get off the Seroquel 100mg completely (daytime fatigue), and her pdoc tapered the med 25mg every 4 days until she was on 25mg. During this time, her mood swings were raging, and she started cutting again. I think it was done too quickly for her. A consulting pdoc (her pdoc was out of town) suggested going back to 50mg Seroquel, and a few days after that, her mood swings subsided considerably. She saw her pdoc when she came back a few days later, and that's when she decided on the Remeron. Taylor has insomnia, so I think that's why she chose Remeron. (I wish I was at that appt. - my husband went)
Taylor wants off Seroquel, and always has - we have a child psychologist in the family who says a child shouldn't be on it for a lengthy time. We also have a "neuro psychologist" who also hates Seroquel for an extended med (and who is wary of Remeron/Zoloft combo until she researches it further) These people have voiced their opinions where Taylor could hear, so naturally, she's scared to take it.
I need to talk to her psychiatrist again, with my questions in hand. Her therapist works with CBT if that makes sense, and Taylor really opens up to her.
I also set up an appt. to have her see my Nurse Practitioner who's been maintaining my psych meds - for an intake and to see their child pdoc who's there twice a month, which is the best I can find with this new insurance. I'm thinking about cancelling that appointment, but perhaps I shouldn't.
Should Taylor start on Remeron, I will watch her like a hawk; I researched what to look for. Thanks for that info..
If it were up to Taylor, she'd be only on the zoloft, and I may ask if it's not a bad idea....
Thank you so much once again!
Laura
Posted by Phillipa on June 23, 2013, at 23:17:36
In reply to Re: Remeron and Zoloft for MDD, my 13 yo daughter » europerep, posted by LAURAH952 on June 23, 2013, at 22:32:13
Sounds like you have a lot of personal resources available also. Also at age 13 hormones are raging and might be causing a lot of mood swings? Phillipa
Posted by LAURAH952 on June 23, 2013, at 23:23:25
In reply to Re: Remeron and Zoloft for MDD, my 13 yo daughter » LAURAH952, posted by Phillipa on June 23, 2013, at 21:26:01
> Laura so in a way you are ahead of the game as you may have the same as Daughter so then what didn't work for you might be a med to skip. How bout trileptal as a mood stabilizer? Didn't make me anxious. It was an add on for depression more dysthymia. Low dose. Phillipa
Hi and thanks,
I'm going to research trileptal and ask the doc - 1st I suppose I need a formal diagnosis of bipolar for her.
- Laura
Posted by LAURAH952 on June 23, 2013, at 23:28:31
In reply to Re: Remeron and Zoloft for MDD, my 13 yo daughter » LAURAH952, posted by Phillipa on June 23, 2013, at 23:17:36
> Sounds like you have a lot of personal resources available also. Also at age 13 hormones are raging and might be causing a lot of mood swings? Phillipa
Hi Phillipa,
Yes, many resources, so it helps. Most against multiple meds. (Yes, 13 year old hormones probably have something to do with this)
Thanks!
Laura
Posted by LAURAH952 on June 23, 2013, at 23:35:46
In reply to Re: Remeron and Zoloft for MDD, my 13 yo daughter, posted by LAURAH952 on June 23, 2013, at 23:28:31
Hello all,
With the go-ahead from my daughter's pdoc, I'm contemplating a slow taper off Seroquel, and not adding Remeron or anything else; Just keeping her on 100mg Zoloft.
She's convinced that these other meds are hurting her, but believes in the Zoloft. (I'm thinking reverse placebo effect here)
Does anyone have ANY thoughts on this after reading my exhaustive account of her depression?
Thanks to all of you! I really appreciate it.
Laura
Posted by SLS on June 24, 2013, at 0:16:53
In reply to Thinking of keeping my daughter on Zoloft only, posted by LAURAH952 on June 23, 2013, at 23:35:46
> Hello all,
>
> With the go-ahead from my daughter's pdoc, I'm contemplating a slow taper off Seroquel, and not adding Remeron or anything else; Just keeping her on 100mg Zoloft.
>
> She's convinced that these other meds are hurting her, but believes in the Zoloft. (I'm thinking reverse placebo effect here)This is sometimes called the "nocebo" effect. It is true, though, that someone may feel more depressed on certain drugs. Also, someone who is hyperthymic will hate being slowed down by drugs, even if they are producing the desired effect of stabilizing mood.
> Does anyone have ANY thoughts on this after reading my exhaustive account of her depression?
>
> Thanks to all of you! I really appreciate it.
> LauraIf I were diagnosed as having MDD, I would also want to take Zoloft by itself. If Zoloft monotherapy works, that's great. To try it at this juncture is a reasonable decision. However, if Taylor is bipolar, it is possible that something that acts as a mood stabilizer or anti-manic will be necessary to treat any mood swings, racing thoughts, or agitation that might emerge. Suicidality also occurs in a manic state, especially in mixed-states. The presence of a bipolar mixed-state might explain things.
- Scott
Posted by LAURAH952 on June 24, 2013, at 7:43:00
In reply to Re: Thinking of keeping my daughter on Zoloft only » LAURAH952, posted by SLS on June 24, 2013, at 0:16:53
Hi Scott,
Taylor's pdoc and her therapist haven't given me a definite answer as to whether or not she has bipolar disorder. Having her try Zoloft alone, may show that she either needs a mood stabilizer, or doesn't. That is my hope.
Being on 300mg Seroquel in the hospital, walking into walls, and feeling "zeroed-out" all the time might make anyone dislike the drug. I've also never seen mood swings in her until the meds were introduced. I've also never seen her in a "happy" manic state.
If I watch her closely, ask her how her mood swings are, and work with her therapist & pdoc, (seen weekly) I should know if mood stabilizers are called for or not.
Taylor really only wants the zoloft, and if I show her that I'm willing to let her try it and see how she feels, she may be more willing to try a mood stabilizer if it isn't working for her. (at this point, I'd taper off the 50mg seroquel she's taking)
Thank you!
Laura
Posted by Lou Pilder on June 24, 2013, at 11:26:30
In reply to correction- Lou's response, zoloft,remeron,suicide, posted by Lou Pilder on June 23, 2013, at 14:59:03
> > > > > Hello,
> > > > >
> > > > > This is my first post, so I hope I'm in the right area of the forum. My daughter (13) HAS MDD, and is complaining of mood swings. She was hospitalized as she was consumed with thoughts of suicide 70% of the time. She was given ZOLOFT 100mg, and SEROQUEL (has been on up to 300 mg - but is now down to 50mg) The drop in SEROQUEL made her mood swings severe, and she was cutting more than ever. At higher levels of Seroquel, she'd walk into walls, and not fully wake-up until afternoon. She seems stabilized at 50mg, but is still having some mood swings, not sleeping well, and the suicidal thoughts remain at 10%. (which is remarkable, as she's only been on meds for about 3 mos.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Her pdoc just switched her from SEROQUEL to REMERON (along with the 100mg zoloft) I'm a little nervous about this combo from what I've read.
> > > > >
> > > > > If anyone can shed any light on this combination, and what it might do for her??... i.e. is remeron better than seroquel for MDD with mood swings, insomnia, etc.. She says she doesn't have anxiety, but the pdoc maintains that her depression has been the worst she's seen in her medical career.
> > > > >
> > > > > After that information, the doc really didn't answer my questions, but told me to use what I wanted - the seroquel or the remeron. (if remeron wasn't tolerated, switch back to seroquel) I'm really confused; ANY help is appreciated!!
> > > > >
> > > > > (note that I don't know the dosage of the Remeron yet as my husband took my daughter to the pdoc and I haven't picked it up yet)
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks!
> > > >
> > > > laurah,
> > > > You wrote,[...could anyone shed any light...ANY help is appreciated...].
> > > > If you continue with what you are doing to your child, she could be dead today or tomorrow or maybe some day after that. You see, the chemicals that you are drugging your daughter with, in collaboration with a psychiatrist, have the potential to cause death via what is known as serotonin syndrome, as one way those drugs could kill her. But it is much more than that. I am prevented from posting here what IMHHHO could save your daughter's life, prevent life-ruining conditions or addiction due to prohibitions posted to me here by Mr Hsiung. So I am prevented from shedding the light that IMHHHO could heal your daughter. You could go to the administrative board here and review post by me and see years of outstanding requests/notifications from me to Mr Hsiung and his deputy now and his past deputies. I think that by you doing that, you could have your psychiatrist email me and I could advise him/her and then he/she could relay that to you.
> > > > As to the suicide thoughts that you posted here about your daughter, be advised that the drugs that she is given can INCREASE suicidal thinking. And also, when taking these drugs together, the adverse effects are increased exponentially.
> > > > So can she have a way out? I know of a way out, but if you stop the drugs she could go into a mind-altered state to be compelled to kill herself or others, even commit mass-murder.
> > > > Lou
> > > >
> > >
> > > Laurah,
> > > If you could show the following statistics to you psychiatrist, he/she could then answer your questions and if the psychiatrist will not give you a straight answer, what could that tell you?
> > > You see, giving these drugs to a 13 year old is (redacted by respondent) and I would really like for this doctor that is giving you daughter these drugs to post here so that I can post my response to him/her.
> > > Lou
> > > http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/zoloft/death
> > > http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/remeron/death
> >
> > laurah,
> > Your mention of suicide thoughts here by your daughter is something that I need to warn you about. You see, taking these drugs together increases suicidal thinking.
> > Lou
> > http://www.ehealthme.com/zoloft-and-remeron/suicide+attempt
>
> correction:
> http://www.ehealthme.com/zoloft-and-remeron/suicide-attemptFriends,
If you are a parent and following this discussion, be advised that last year it is generally accepted that 42,000 deaths were attributed to psychiatric drugs. I think that number is under the real number of deaths. A lot of the deaths are of children. There are many reasons for that.
What could be unbeknownst to you is the history of psychiatric drugging that I am prevented from posting here due to the prohibitions posted to me by Mf. Hsiung. I think that if you were allowed to know these facts, that lives could be saved, life-ruining conditions and addictions could be avoided. There are many other facts that I am prohibited to post here also. What this means to you is that you could be led to a false conclusion because facts are not allowed to be posted here by me that if they were known by you, you could IMHHHHO make a more-informed decision as to drug your child or not in collaboration with a psychiatrist/doctor /prescriber.
Here is an article that I would like discussants here to read and there is a video also.
Lou
To see this article:
A. Pull up google
B. Type in, [New documentary: Psychiatric Drugs can kill you child]
Posted by LAURAH952 on June 24, 2013, at 14:01:47
In reply to Lou's response, Psychiatric Drugs can, posted by Lou Pilder on June 24, 2013, at 11:26:30
> Laurah,
> > > If you could show the following statistics to you psychiatrist, he/she could then answer your questions and if the psychiatrist will not give you a straight answer, what could that tell you?
> > > You see, giving these drugs to a 13 year old is (redacted by respondent) and I would really like for this doctor that is giving you daughter these drugs to post here so that I can post my response to him/her.
> > > Lou
> > > http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/zoloft/death
> > > http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/remeron/death
> >This doesn't even look like a study to me. How many participants were included in this research shown in the graph from 1997 to 2012? The highest "trend of death in Zoloft" in the entire 15 years as depicted by the graph is 217 people. Now, in 2013, (which is only half over) that number jumps to 1,125 people?? That's absurd!
I was told that antidepressants have the ability to increase suicidal thoughts when initially on the medication. I also saw studies myself that no deaths due to suicide happened. I'm sure there are many many studies out there with conflicting outcomes. It was fully explained, and my daughter was in a hospital being monitored.
Here are my facts from the only study I care about right now.
Before meds: My daughter was consumed with suicidal thoughts 70% of her day. She was cutting herself. She stayed in bed and got up only to drag herself to school, spending most of her time there crying. She was receiving CBT weekly for several months before any medication was considered.
After meds: She has suicidal thoughts less than 10% of her day. She is outgoing, spending her time with friends and engaging in activities she enjoys again. Right now she isn't cutting herself. She's made remarkable improvement. (The exceptions being that when tapering off Seroquel too quickly, she started cutting again, had mood swings, and wasn't sleeping as well once again.) She's now experiencing these symptoms at a much lower level, but still needs improvement.
We watch her carefully, and are aware of side effects. I believe that in her case they do outweigh the risks. If we didn't get her on medication, I don't believe she'd be alive right now.
Do I want her on meds long term? Of course not... Do I want her alive? Heck yeah!
- Laura
Posted by Lou PIlder on June 24, 2013, at 14:25:06
In reply to Re: Lou's response, Psychiatric Drugs can » Lou Pilder, posted by LAURAH952 on June 24, 2013, at 14:01:47
> > Laurah,
> > > > If you could show the following statistics to you psychiatrist, he/she could then answer your questions and if the psychiatrist will not give you a straight answer, what could that tell you?
> > > > You see, giving these drugs to a 13 year old is (redacted by respondent) and I would really like for this doctor that is giving you daughter these drugs to post here so that I can post my response to him/her.
> > > > Lou
> > > > http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/zoloft/death
> > > > http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/remeron/death
> > >
>
> This doesn't even look like a study to me. How many participants were included in this research shown in the graph from 1997 to 2012? The highest "trend of death in Zoloft" in the entire 15 years as depicted by the graph is 217 people. Now, in 2013, (which is only half over) that number jumps to 1,125 people?? That's absurd!
>
> I was told that antidepressants have the ability to increase suicidal thoughts when initially on the medication. I also saw studies myself that no deaths due to suicide happened. I'm sure there are many many studies out there with conflicting outcomes. It was fully explained, and my daughter was in a hospital being monitored.
>
> Here are my facts from the only study I care about right now.
>
> Before meds: My daughter was consumed with suicidal thoughts 70% of her day. She was cutting herself. She stayed in bed and got up only to drag herself to school, spending most of her time there crying. She was receiving CBT weekly for several months before any medication was considered.
>
> After meds: She has suicidal thoughts less than 10% of her day. She is outgoing, spending her time with friends and engaging in activities she enjoys again. Right now she isn't cutting herself. She's made remarkable improvement. (The exceptions being that when tapering off Seroquel too quickly, she started cutting again, had mood swings, and wasn't sleeping as well once again.) She's now experiencing these symptoms at a much lower level, but still needs improvement.
>
> We watch her carefully, and are aware of side effects. I believe that in her case they do outweigh the risks. If we didn't get her on medication, I don't believe she'd be alive right now.
>
> Do I want her on meds long term? Of course not... Do I want her alive? Heck yeah!
>
> - LauraL,
> You wrote, [...no deaths to suicide..]
Lou
http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/zoloft/completed+suicide
Posted by LAURAH952 on June 24, 2013, at 15:29:46
In reply to Lou's reply-completed suicide-zoloft » LAURAH952, posted by Lou PIlder on June 24, 2013, at 14:25:06
Lou,
Where's the study? The graph means nothing, (as stated in my last post) therefore there is only that 1 statement concerning deaths among people who took or were taking Zoloft. Where did this info come from? Depressed people commit suicide. This so called info by no means infers that deaths were caused solely by taking Zoloft. The information also states that these people were taking many other meds, and their diagnoses are not given. This holds no merit.
I do believe it can happen, hence the warning on the med. In many cases the benefit outweighs the risk - did you not read how my daughter greatly improved after she started taking Zoloft? She was already extremely depressed and highly suicidal. I believe strongly that depression causes suicide.
Ironically, the website you keep referring to is funded by the large pharmaceutical companies, where if you look for any information, is pushing major brand name psychiatric medications.
If you have real case studies that prove what you are trying to say, go ahead and send the link.
Laura
Posted by Lou PIlder on June 24, 2013, at 17:16:19
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-completed suicide-zoloft, posted by LAURAH952 on June 24, 2013, at 15:29:46
> Lou,
>
> Where's the study? The graph means nothing, (as stated in my last post) therefore there is only that 1 statement concerning deaths among people who took or were taking Zoloft. Where did this info come from? Depressed people commit suicide. This so called info by no means infers that deaths were caused solely by taking Zoloft. The information also states that these people were taking many other meds, and their diagnoses are not given. This holds no merit.
>
> I do believe it can happen, hence the warning on the med. In many cases the benefit outweighs the risk - did you not read how my daughter greatly improved after she started taking Zoloft? She was already extremely depressed and highly suicidal. I believe strongly that depression causes suicide.
>
> Ironically, the website you keep referring to is funded by the large pharmaceutical companies, where if you look for any information, is pushing major brand name psychiatric medications.
>
> If you have real case studies that prove what you are trying to say, go ahead and send the link.
>
> LauraL,
Here is a video that I would like for you to view. To see this video:
A. Pull up Google
B. Type in:
[ youtube, 6Xjx0gL83I ]
Lou
Posted by Phil on June 24, 2013, at 18:12:34
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-completed suicide-zoloft, posted by LAURAH952 on June 24, 2013, at 15:29:46
90% + of people that commit suicide have a mental illness. Hope things are OK.
Posted by Phillipa on June 24, 2013, at 18:29:37
In reply to Thinking of keeping my daughter on Zoloft only, posted by LAURAH952 on June 23, 2013, at 23:35:46
Laura I do I feel for now you are making the right decision. Phillipa
Posted by LAURAH952 on June 25, 2013, at 9:25:05
In reply to Re: Thinking of keeping my daughter on Zoloft only » LAURAH952, posted by Phillipa on June 24, 2013, at 18:29:37
In reply to Thinking of keeping my daughter on Zoloft only, posted by LAURAH952 on June 23, 2013, at 23:35:46
Laura I do I feel for now you are making the right decision. Phillipa
Thank you so much Phillipa,I really wasn't comfortable giving her the Remeron with the Zoloft. When her pdoc called, I told her that I was hoping that I didn't have to give her the Remeron, and she replied, "I thought you wanted her to be able to sleep" I'm thinking, "are ya kiddin' me? You gave her Remeron so she could sleep???" She also told me to do whatever I wanted as it pertained to tapering off the Seroquel. I really think I need a new pdoc. Would you be inclined to agree?
We also tapered off the Seroquel entirely too quickly for Taylor. (dropping 25mg every 4 days) The mood swings it caused were drastic. She's now at 50mg, and we'll taper very very slowly.
When she's on the Zoloft(100mg) only, we'll be better able to determine if bipolar exists, yes?
If we ever get into bipolar meds, I have the feeling that we'll have a long road ahead of us. It was for me; I've been on more than I can count in the past 3 years.
Thank you so much again!
Laura
Posted by LAURAH952 on June 25, 2013, at 10:09:23
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-completed suicide-zoloft » LAURAH952, posted by Phil on June 24, 2013, at 18:12:34
90% + of people that commit suicide have a mental illness. Hope things are OK.
Hi Phil,
Thanks for your reply. I figured the percentage was near 90%.
Things are not ok yet, but they will be.
Laura
Posted by Beckett on June 25, 2013, at 18:04:27
In reply to Re: Thinking of keeping my daughter on Zoloft only » Phillipa, posted by LAURAH952 on June 25, 2013, at 9:25:05
Good Luck Laura.
Posted by Phillipa on June 25, 2013, at 20:22:23
In reply to Re: Thinking of keeping my daughter on Zoloft only » Phillipa, posted by LAURAH952 on June 25, 2013, at 9:25:05
Laura I'd get a second opinion as this is a child. Phillipa
Posted by LAURAH952 on June 26, 2013, at 12:53:21
In reply to Re: Thinking of keeping my daughter on Zoloft only » LAURAH952, posted by Phillipa on June 25, 2013, at 20:22:23
Hi Phillipa,
I now have an intake appt. for Taylor to see a new adolescent psychiatrist.
Thanks,
Laura
Posted by Phillipa on June 26, 2013, at 21:16:43
In reply to Re: Thinking of keeping my daughter on Zoloft only, posted by LAURAH952 on June 26, 2013, at 12:53:21
Laura that's fantastic. Please update? Phillipa
Posted by LAURAH952 on June 27, 2013, at 13:16:10
In reply to Re: Thinking of keeping my daughter on Zoloft only » LAURAH952, posted by Phillipa on June 26, 2013, at 21:16:43
Will Do Phillipa!
Thanks!!
- Laura
Posted by Zyprexa on July 3, 2013, at 6:13:23
In reply to Re: Remeron and Zoloft for MDD, my 13 yo daughter, posted by laurah952 on June 23, 2013, at 8:49:28
Actualy, now that you mention it, I did have bizzar nightmares on remeron. I was switching from zyprexa to remeron. I quickly went back on zyprexa. zyprexa is very similar a drug as seroquel, which I've not taken. From what I hear seroquel is more likely to make you tired than zyprexa. zyprexa is used for mood disorders too. Very effective. I've been taking it now 15 years. Great for getting your mind off suicide. Remeron is probably more likely to make tired than zyprexa. For a 13 yo girl it probably would not take much zyprexa, maybe 5-10 mg. I currently take 15mg. I don't know for her, but would not go with the remeron.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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