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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by brklyn233342 on March 8, 2013, at 23:56:48
Ill keep this short and sweet,i was always told listen to people with expereince,people with time under their belt,well without knowing it i went from a kid to a man,and this board has been around the whole time which means the suffering has been also.I just am posting one comment for the moment,but with tons and pounds of reading,i believe the best bet we had or have was the old nardi,i say old cause as most know they changed the formulation and caused many people to suffer.
How long will we keep taking the same drugs before we see they just arent helping.
Posted by CamW on March 9, 2013, at 0:40:07
In reply to Short and Sweet, posted by brklyn233342 on March 8, 2013, at 23:56:48
brklyn:
This is not a judgement but just a general observation. As a pharmacist I realize that there are no cures in pharmacy. Medications can be looked upon as bandages, substances that ameliorate symptoms of specific disorders. This is especially true when treating psychiatric disorders.
It is difficult to "cure" psychiatric disorders, especially since we have little idea as to their cause. Medications help to reverse some of the symptoms of these disorders, but there are almost always residual symptoms left to deal with.
This is where the sufferer must step up and do some hard work in order to learn to live a relatively normal life within the parameters of the disorder. This is where counselling comes in, be it formal (with a psychologist) or informal (with friends or family members or websites like this one).
We cannot expect medications alone to "fix" us. We must learn how to live productively, realizing that we cannot live the easier life that we knew prior to our new situation.
I just thought that I'd add my 2¢. I hope that you don't mind brklyn.
Sincerely - Cam
Posted by Tomatheus on March 9, 2013, at 3:25:23
In reply to Re: Short and Sweet + some more, posted by CamW on March 9, 2013, at 0:40:07
Cam,
I had a rebuttal to some of what you've stated here written, but I deleted it because I think the unfortunate truth is that you're right. There is no place in this world for those of us who cannot live productively. As you said, we must learn to live productively, because if we can't, we're not going to make it very far, especially if we don't have money and/or a support system. We know what happens to many of those who are unable to live productively due to mental impairments in the 21st century. They end up in jails, on the streets, or dead. And to think that in parts of the 20th century, those who couldn't live productively due to mental conditions ended up in institutions. But never mind what was. What's most important to us is what is and what will be. What will become of us who, despite our best efforts, fail in our pursuits of living productively? Well, before too long (and long before what would be considered "our time"), we will probably fail to live at all. At least in this existence. The message is clear that there is no place for us in this world.
Tomatheus
Posted by 10derheart on March 9, 2013, at 4:57:05
In reply to Re: Short and Sweet + some more » CamW, posted by Tomatheus on March 9, 2013, at 3:25:23
>The message is clear that there is no place for us in this world.
Hello Tomatheus,
You sound pretty discouraged. I'm sorry. Things can be so difficult.
I believe there is a place for everyone in this world. Every single person has purpose and value.
I'm sure Cam was not saying people - with MI or not - must be "productive" in the sense of money, success, and so forth. I took the meaning to be more general, after all, being productive can be as simple as showering any given day, or walking outside for 5 minutes. Yes, those with the most devastating illnesses can end up with the worst scenarios, including death, but hopefully it doesn't have to come to that.
If society is giving the message there's no place for me, I try to *hear* something else. I refuse to let that message penetrate, I guess. If I can't change the station, I leave the "room" where the "radio" is or turn it off.
I shouldn't write at 3 a.m. Sorry if this is garbled.
Posted by Tomatheus on March 9, 2013, at 5:56:35
In reply to Re: Short and Sweet + some more » Tomatheus, posted by 10derheart on March 9, 2013, at 4:57:05
10derheart,
Thank you for your message. Yes, I have been feeling discouraged, and I get what you're saying about trying to hear another message other than one that says that there's no place for me in the world. I guess that I should try to find what value I can in what I have and focus less on what my long-term outlook might look like if I don't see significant symptomatic improvement. There are some things that I have limited control over, and putting too much emphasis on such things will only take away from my ability to focus on what I do have control over, if that makes any sense.
I don't know what else to say right now, but I do appreciate your message, even if you think it might have come out a bit garbled.
Tomatheus
Posted by SLS on March 9, 2013, at 7:08:40
In reply to Re: Short and Sweet + some more » 10derheart, posted by Tomatheus on March 9, 2013, at 5:56:35
I commiserate with you. I have felt separated from society, especially when my illness was at its worse. This was profoundly painful. Although I didn't feel that I had a place in society, I still felt that I had a place in God's Creation. Sometimes, the only relationship I had was with God. It was helpful to know that I wasn't truly alone.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on March 9, 2013, at 7:25:09
In reply to Short and Sweet, posted by brklyn233342 on March 8, 2013, at 23:56:48
> How long will we keep taking the same drugs before we see they just arent helping.
"We"?
Mine are helping. I have not reached remission yet, but they are certainly helping.
I know people who have reached remission with these same drugs.
Because of what I have encountered in my quest for health, I remain optimistic.
I believe that "they" understand the shortcomings of current treatments. They are still searching for new therapies with a sense of urgency. Otherwise, they wouldn't bother with ketamine. Ketamine represents more of an heuristic tool than it does a mainstream treatment.
- Scott
Posted by Tomatheus on March 9, 2013, at 8:16:54
In reply to Re: Short and Sweet + some more » Tomatheus, posted by SLS on March 9, 2013, at 7:08:40
Scott,
Thanks for your message. I too feel like I have a relationship with God, albeit a slightly psychotic one. Sometimes I feel like it's a good relationship. Occasionally I don't. Somehow I think that God is preparing me to eventually do some work that may serve a higher purpose, but it's easy to call that into question when treatments for my disorder (both chemical and otherwise) don't seem to produce lasting improvements. Still, I tend to take comfort in my relationship with God, even when I don't actually feel like I'm being influenced or guided by Him, and I feel like my relationship with God has helped to see me through some of my darker hours.
Tomatheus
Posted by bleauberry on March 9, 2013, at 9:08:34
In reply to Re: Short and Sweet + some more, posted by CamW on March 9, 2013, at 0:40:07
I totally agree with CamW's comments. I believe the trap most of us fall into, is we are basically led to believe that meds can cure us of our psychiatric symptoms.
Sometimes they do. Old Nardil, and Parnate, seem to be the only two that stand a real fighting chance of doing that. But I've seen people in remission on 10 years of zoloft or prozac. It happens. Rare. Jackpots in Las Vegas happen too. But rare.
Meds in my opinion are best used to help minimize symptoms, and on a temporary basis....not open-ended forever....in order to buy us some time to address other issues so we can get our symptoms fixed that we don't need symptomatic assistance anymore, or that if we do, it is minimal.
What most of us do wrong, including myself for 15 years, is we put 100% of our bets on the psychiatric gambling table, and totally completely ignore the other tables around us, most of which are producing a lot more jackpots than the psychiatric one is.
God did not say He gave us pharmacies for medicines. He said he created the plants for us to use as medicines.
I was just studying an article on Bartonella (common infection people don't know they have, from dust mites, ticks, cats) and was astounded that rather than using the plants the scientists have already identified as being clinically effective, they instead want to isolate the active natural compounds in it, so they can synthetically duplicate them, get a patent, and make money. In the meantime, you don't know about those plants!
Bartonella symptoms include panic, anxiety, and treatment resistant depression. Sometimes the infection symptoms are only psychiatric, with none of the other more commonly expected symptoms. How do we know? Because they got better on bartonella herbs or ABX. But they did not get much better on anything else.
Anyway...
Posted by Phillipa on March 9, 2013, at 9:15:58
In reply to Re: Short and Sweet + some more, posted by CamW on March 9, 2013, at 0:40:07
Seems so many I know in real life take an ad an SSRI and feel great. So for seems like the majority of people I know they work very well. Now I do not think that most had debilitating depression or anxiety. But what they had is now gone and most "Love" their ad. Phillipa
Posted by 10derheart on March 9, 2013, at 10:53:33
In reply to Re: Short and Sweet + some more » 10derheart, posted by Tomatheus on March 9, 2013, at 5:56:35
I'm so glad that's what came through, and that it was okay to say. I was afraid the tone would be lost and it would sound like I was saying you/we should just think positive and get over it....or something like that. Which would sound pretty simplistic and miss the point. I don't post much anymore and doing it when I should be sleeping isn't the best.
I am overjoyed you feel you have a relationship with God, even if you can't feel His presence asa much as you'd like. That's precisely the place I'm in. Work in progress... take care...10der
Posted by CamW on March 9, 2013, at 11:16:58
In reply to Re: Short and Sweet + some more » CamW, posted by Tomatheus on March 9, 2013, at 3:25:23
Tomatheus:
My use of "productive" is just another example of me not being able to quick find words in my head while typing. I wasn't meaning contributing to society in any monetary way, but interacting with others, and living a social life in a social society. This is instead of hiding under the covers day-in and day-out, just hoping for sleep.
Sorry for the misunderstanding. - Cam
Posted by Tomatheus on March 9, 2013, at 12:36:26
In reply to Re: Short and Sweet + some more » Tomatheus, posted by CamW on March 9, 2013, at 11:16:58
Cam,
I do think that I misunderstood what you were trying to convey with your use of the word "productive." And I do agree with some of what you wrote in your first post to this thread, especially what you wrote about there almost always being residual symptoms even with psychiatric medications, as well as what you wrote about the potential value of psychological treatments in helping to manage these symptoms. I guess that the point that I was trying to make was that medications, talk therapies, and other treatments for mental illnesses tend to go farther for some patients than they do for others, making productive living (however you may measure it) more attainable for some than for others. I agree that it's a good idea to employ various forms of counseling in combination with medications and possibly also other treatment modalities to try to minimize residual psychiatric symptoms to the furthest extent possible, but I basically don't think that doing this will always lead to the outcome of a relatively normal life. Of course, how often the outcome of a relatively normal life is achieved depends on how one defines "relatively normal," but even when one's definition leaves a lot of leeway, but I don't think that a combination of medications and talk therapy will guarantee that the outcome will be met. That doesn't mean that combining the two treatment modalities doesn't increase the odds of improvement and that talk therapies shouldn't be tried, though.
Tomatheus
Posted by brklyn233342 on March 9, 2013, at 12:42:54
In reply to Short and Sweet, posted by brklyn233342 on March 8, 2013, at 23:56:48
Sorry if i offended anyone,again i only speak for myself,and im not a doc or anything,i just posted that from my experieance on boards and groups that the moais especialy the OLD NARDIL were the main two meds that seemed to over and over again have some form of success opposed to the consisent failures of ssris.I wish to death the ssris produced more of a roboust effect,i truly do,but i cant close my eyes to my own failures of them and the constant upon constant trials i read of them.
I totatly welcome new strageies such as the ketamine one,in fact in my above post i i write about my own trials with its more obtainable and said to be more potent cousin MXE.I just want to see more people beat this monster and when i see people trip over ssri merry go rounds i get really sad in remebering the years of pain the trials brought me and the sadness of the person wirtings trial,i would love to see more success with ssri treatment,in fact ill even write what i have seen work which is the use of ssri plus miniscure dose of stimulant,but ssris alone just seems to be failing to often for me to feel someone should take notice.Im sorry if any dont agree i dont mean to p- anyone off,i wish success to everyone,but again im just stating that i see most success with either high dose of parnate or the use of the OLD NARDIL maoi.
Posted by CamW on March 9, 2013, at 13:39:10
In reply to Re: Short and Sweet, posted by brklyn233342 on March 9, 2013, at 12:42:54
brklyn:
I don't think that you offended anyone. I just read your original post and it got me thinking. My reply was just me thinking out loud which I do a lot. Much of the time I do it without thinking my reply through.
I do know your frustration in finding a medication combination that works for you. I remember working for mental health services as a consultant pharmacist and being asked to find medication regimens for treatment resistant cases. I remember my frustration in trying and failing to find a regimen that worked for an individual case. Waiting the weeks or months to see if a change worked occasionally tore me apart mentally.
I remember feeling ecstatic with occasional surprising success. My most surprising success, which was written up in a major medical journal (even though the psychiatrist did not think of adding my name to the article, after suggesting the medication and being the guy who convinced the person from giving up on the therapy).
It was a gentleman who developed severe tardive dyskinesia from years of taking traditional antipsychotics. It was so bad that he couldn't even keep a hat on his head. I suggested giving Clozaril (clozapine) which was a new medication at the time. The drug did not seem to be doing anything for the TD after a month, but it did, more or less, control psychotic symptoms. After about 8 (yes, eight) months the TD symptoms seemed to miraculously disappear. The gentleman was riding his bike within a month and is living a much better life the last that I heard.
I had almost given up on him. I kept on him to keep taking the medication, but in my heart I thought I had another failure on my hands. No one was more surprised at the success than me (but I have never told anyone that).
I guess what I am saying is never give up hope. Give medications a reasonable chance to work & work with the doctor to try to find a way to live as "normal" as possible life within the restraints of the condition.
I hope that you don't mind me adding my 2¢.
Sincerely - Cam
Posted by Lou PIlder on March 9, 2013, at 14:19:48
In reply to Re: Short and Sweet + some more » SLS, posted by Tomatheus on March 9, 2013, at 8:16:54
> Scott,
>
> Thanks for your message. I too feel like I have a relationship with God, albeit a slightly psychotic one. Sometimes I feel like it's a good relationship. Occasionally I don't. Somehow I think that God is preparing me to eventually do some work that may serve a higher purpose, but it's easy to call that into question when treatments for my disorder (both chemical and otherwise) don't seem to produce lasting improvements. Still, I tend to take comfort in my relationship with God, even when I don't actually feel like I'm being influenced or guided by Him, and I feel like my relationship with God has helped to see me through some of my darker hours.
>
> TomatheusT,
You wrote,[...a relationship with God...God is preparing me...treatment..don't..produce lasting improvements...God has helped me..my darker hours..].
I am unsure as to all that is involved here in what you wrote. If you could leave a detailed message, I could get back to you.
A. Which God do you have a relationship with?
B. Does this God have any scriptures that the people that give service and worship to this God use?
C. In those scriptures, if there are any, do they speak to what that God prescribes to people that take mind-altering drugs?
D. Does this God claim to have created the heavens and the Earth?
E. If this God writes in the scriptures, if any, that one can be delivered out of depression and addiction, do you know how that can be done?
Lou
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 9, 2013, at 15:01:40
In reply to Re: Short and Sweet + some more » Tomatheus, posted by CamW on March 9, 2013, at 11:16:58
> I wasn't meaning contributing to society in any monetary way, but interacting with others, and living a social life in a social society.
And even if society is too much, Babble might still be manageable.
Bob
Posted by Tomatheus on March 9, 2013, at 15:48:45
In reply to Lou' request-mrngsptr » Tomatheus, posted by Lou PIlder on March 9, 2013, at 14:19:48
Lou,
I replied to your post on the Faith board:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20101230/msgs/1039948.html
Tomatheus
Posted by poser938 on March 9, 2013, at 16:10:45
In reply to Re: interacting with others, posted by Dr. Bob on March 9, 2013, at 15:01:40
> > I wasn't meaning contributing to society in any monetary way, but interacting with others, and living a social life in a social society.
>
> And even if society is too much, Babble might still be manageable.
>
> BobThis is how it has been for me lately. I try to make the best of it, though. So I get on YahooAnswers and Psychobabble often, lately.
This is the end of the thread.
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