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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by paulkid on February 26, 2013, at 20:39:43
In reply to Re: Which Drug increase dopamine the most? » JohnnyBLinux, posted by conundrum on November 12, 2009, at 21:08:44
Couple things - keep in mind that amphetamine and methamphetamine do more than just interfere with the dopamine transporter (DAT). They actually enter the cell, and force the dopamine out of the intracellular vesicles, which then causes the dopamine to get dumped out by making the dopamine transporter work in reverse. This means that you get a lot of dopamine increases with the amphetamines. This is in contrast to cocaine and methylphenidate (ritalin) which just block the transporters (yes they block the serotonin and norepi transporters too). Also, the neurons have to fire in order for dopamine to get released in the first place, so cocaine, for example, won't cause an increase unless there some activity going on. This is in contrast to amphetamine, which dumps the dopamine out no matter what. The downside of amphetamines are that intracellular dopamine is toxic (dopamine is an oxidant), so neurons can die after chronic use. This is less true with the reuptake inhibitors like cocaine. Also, animals will work harder on a progressive ratio schedule to get amphetamine injections than cocaine, but not much harder.
Second - dopamine is not reward or euphoria. It's complicated but the basic idea is that dopamine "tags" stimuli in the environment as motivationally relevant (ie salient, or "interesting"). This is how you get the increase in attention with drugs like ritalin. In some cases this can be pathological, like the induction of OCD symptoms, hypersexuality, addiction, all of these things can be characterized as excessive interest in environmental stimuli. The euphoria bit is due to activation of the endogenous opioid system (think morphine, heroin, painkillers).
Third - remember your individual differences. Ritalin makes a lot of people hyper but it calms down folks with ADHD. Some people can experiment with drugs but others become addicted. So everyone is different. Why is the big question.
Posted by rjlockhart37 on February 26, 2013, at 21:54:32
In reply to Re: Which Drug increase dopamine the most? » conundrum, posted by paulkid on February 26, 2013, at 20:39:43
i've used methamphetamine....not prolonged periods but i have say when the hit comes...its pretty intense...a rush of pleasure of confidence and activation....and also you get motivated to do dumb things like repetative movements, filing, writing down things....motor skills....i don't know about amphetamine but methamphetamine will suck you into a task at a hyperfocus ability...you can concentrate extremely over a subject for hours. The dopamine starts to deplete after several days of use....and higher hits are needed....but eventually that person will have to crash into sleep....because the whole mind is consumed with overdrive energy that drains all the nuerons. Adderall...Dexedrine Vynvase....there similar but not as the pleasure of meth....they improve similar things like focus but don't really give the rush of pleasure from the meth. If you take couple 30mg adderalls....you'll wake up, be peppy, get things done, be able to have long coversation and over enthusiastic.
I havent really go much experience on Rililin..methyphenidate...i've never taken it as crazy as that sounds. But im sure it works similar to coke....increases mootivation and energy....and enthusiasm...
that's all i can say....thakns for writing all that....
r
Posted by CamW on February 27, 2013, at 9:07:15
In reply to Re: Which Drug increase dopamine the most? » conundrum, posted by paulkid on February 26, 2013, at 20:39:43
A couple of other meds that have dopaminergic activity are Effexor (venlafaxine) at doses >450mg/day & Wellbutrin (bupropion).
Their activity is not close to that of the amphetamines.
- Cam
Posted by Phillipa on February 27, 2013, at 9:42:00
In reply to Re: Which Drug increase dopamine the most? » paulkid, posted by CamW on February 27, 2013, at 9:07:15
I thought that wellbutrin had dopamine. Since years ago it sped me up. And have diagnosis of OCD but I think it's incorrect as always been anxiety. Explains why can't or couldn't take it then. Phillipa
Posted by rjlockhart37 on February 27, 2013, at 20:16:57
In reply to Re: Which Drug increase dopamine the most? » CamW, posted by Phillipa on February 27, 2013, at 9:42:00
wellbutrin's effect on dopamine is weak...not all the way but it can increase motivation...due to the moderate dopamine increase...but its nothing compared to Ritilin....the main thing why it causes anxiety is because it effects norephenephrine....which increases agitation in people who have anxiety......a good doc would never prescibed wellbutrin in anxiety cases....there's a couple cases where it can be exculuded but mainly its NE that causes anxiety....
:)
r
Posted by Phillipa on February 27, 2013, at 20:32:39
In reply to Re: Which Drug increase dopamine the most? » Phillipa, posted by rjlockhart37 on February 27, 2013, at 20:16:57
Thanks RJ I did not know this explains the high anxiety. I guess noreperine isn't for me. But is it in cymbalta as did okay on it. Granted higher benzos at the time. Phillipa
Posted by jono_in_adelaide on February 27, 2013, at 23:35:09
In reply to Re: Which Drug increase dopamine the most? » rjlockhart37, posted by Phillipa on February 27, 2013, at 20:32:39
SDrugs that increase noradrenalin done nessecerily cause anxiety - nortriptyline and clomipramine both inhibit noradrenalin reuptake, yet they are both used to treat anxiety spectrum disorders.
Posted by rjlockhart37 on February 28, 2013, at 22:08:29
In reply to Re: Which Drug increase dopamine the most?, posted by jono_in_adelaide on February 27, 2013, at 23:35:09
you know maybe it has some adrenal effects or adrenaline properties....when i was on wellbutrn it at first was activating....but then as time went by i started to feel antzy, and then after it was bumbed up to 450mg it sent me to derealization land, see i don't how exactly it works....i just know it slight increase DA but is much stronger on NE....but still i think it effects adrenal glands some because of that jump crawling in your skin feeling....
wellbutrin works VARY well with some people...here on babble...i wished i could be more normal in brain chemistry...lol
r
Posted by phidippus on March 2, 2013, at 14:05:25
In reply to Re: Which Drug increase dopamine the most? » conundrum, posted by paulkid on February 26, 2013, at 20:39:43
Some people just have deficits the drugs make up for.
Eric
Posted by paulkid on March 2, 2013, at 14:41:12
In reply to Re: Which Drug increase dopamine the most? » paulkid, posted by phidippus on March 2, 2013, at 14:05:25
Check out Elliot Valenstein's "Blaming the Brain". There's actually very little evidence that many of the disorders we are talking about are due to a neurochemical imbalance. These drugs are probably treating symptoms without getting at the underlying cause. Knowing this doesn't help us sufferers, but its good to keep in mind that the "chemical deficiency" idea may be an invention of drug companies that has been perpetuated by doctors and, in some cases, researchers.
Posted by phidippus on March 2, 2013, at 14:56:39
In reply to Re: Which Drug increase dopamine the most?, posted by paulkid on March 2, 2013, at 14:41:12
>There's actually very little evidence that many of the disorders we are talking about are due to a neurochemical imbalance.
Of course not, but we can't fix structural abnormalities that cause the imbalance.
Eric
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 3, 2013, at 13:56:02
In reply to Re: Which Drug increase dopamine the most?, posted by paulkid on March 2, 2013, at 14:41:12
> Check out Elliot Valenstein's "Blaming the Brain".
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book, a movie, or music without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she is at least aware of it. Thanks for letting us know about other resources,
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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