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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 19 to 43 of 43. Go back in thread:
Posted by alchemy on January 31, 2013, at 13:02:21
In reply to Re: question on minocycline » alchemy, posted by SLS on January 31, 2013, at 10:26:40
Wow, thanks Scott! Almost sounds too good to be true. I know that you have had some success with it. About how much do you think it has helped you and when did you start noticing its effects? Did you also notice that it helped with motivation or anhedonia? Sometimes it feels like it hurts my brain just to think!
Posted by SLS on January 31, 2013, at 15:09:26
In reply to Re: question on minocycline, posted by alchemy on January 31, 2013, at 13:02:21
> Wow, thanks Scott! Almost sounds too good to be true. I know that you have had some success with it. About how much do you think it has helped you and when did you start noticing its effects? Did you also notice that it helped with motivation or anhedonia? Sometimes it feels like it hurts my brain just to think!
I and one other person experienced an improvement within the first week. It is important to take note that we both are also taking Lamictal and Abilify. The other person achieved full remission within two weeks. I am not quite so lucky, but, from what I understand, it can take a full year for some people. I figure it is worth the wait. I would say that motivation and anhedonia are significantly improved in me. Although I have had brief "blip" improvements in the past that have been more robust, I have not felt this well consistently in 25 years. If I do get stuck, I would consider TMS or ketamine treatments to move things along.
To summarize, minocycline:
1. Reduces glutamate hyperactivity.
2. Reduces glutamate excitotoxicity (neuroprotective).
3. Reduces brain inflammation.
4. Increases neuroplasticity by enhancing the neurite growth produced by nerve growth factor (NGF).Of these, I believe that it is #1 that is the most important for the acute improvement that occurs early in treatment. If so, then one might pursue the idea of adding an antiglutamatergic agent to enhance the effects of minocycline. Lamictal is an obvious choice. Memantine would be another drug to look at as well as N-acetylcysteine (NAC). I believe that #4 would also contribute to the acute therapeutic effect. It may be that the anti-inflammatory properties of minocycline become important to produce a sustained therapeutic effect. Interestingly, in animal models, adding minocycline to the TCA, desipramine, produced a greater antidepressant effect than desipramine alone. I am currently taking nortriptyline, another TCA.
The most important side effect of minocycline to screen for is brain swelling (pseudotumor cerebri). It is rare, but dangerous.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/pseudotumor-cerebri/DS00851/DSECTION=symptoms
Symptoms include:
* Moderate to severe headaches that may originate behind the eyes
* Ringing in the ears that pulses in time with your heartbeat
* Nausea, vomiting or dizziness
* Blurred or dimmed vision
* Brief episodes of blindness, lasting only a few seconds and affecting one or both eyes (visual obscurations)
* Difficulty seeing to the side
* Double vision (diplopia)
* Seeing light flashes (photopsia)
* Neck, shoulder or back pain
- Scott
Posted by ihatedrugs on January 31, 2013, at 16:27:56
In reply to Re: question on minocycline » alchemy, posted by SLS on January 31, 2013, at 15:09:26
> > Wow, thanks Scott! Almost sounds too good to be true. I know that you have had some success with it. About how much do you think it has helped you and when did you start noticing its effects? Did you also notice that it helped with motivation or anhedonia? Sometimes it feels like it hurts my brain just to think!
>
> I and one other person experienced an improvement within the first week. It is important to take note that we both are also taking Lamictal and Abilify. The other person achieved full remission within two weeks. I am not quite so lucky, but, from what I understand, it can take a full year for some people. I figure it is worth the wait. I would say that motivation and anhedonia are significantly improved in me. Although I have had brief "blip" improvements in the past that have been more robust, I have not felt this well consistently in 25 years. If I do get stuck, I would consider TMS or ketamine treatments to move things along.
>
> To summarize, minocycline:
>
> 1. Reduces glutamate hyperactivity.
> 2. Reduces glutamate excitotoxicity (neuroprotective).
> 3. Reduces brain inflammation.
> 4. Increases neuroplasticity by enhancing the neurite growth produced by nerve growth factor (NGF).
>
> Of these, I believe that it is #1 that is the most important for the acute improvement that occurs early in treatment. If so, then one might pursue the idea of adding an antiglutamatergic agent to enhance the effects of minocycline. Lamictal is an obvious choice. Memantine would be another drug to look at as well as N-acetylcysteine (NAC). I believe that #4 would also contribute to the acute therapeutic effect. It may be that the anti-inflammatory properties of minocycline become important to produce a sustained therapeutic effect. Interestingly, in animal models, adding minocycline to the TCA, desipramine, produced a greater antidepressant effect than desipramine alone. I am currently taking nortriptyline, another TCA.
>
> The most important side effect of minocycline to screen for is brain swelling (pseudotumor cerebri). It is rare, but dangerous.
>
> http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/pseudotumor-cerebri/DS00851/DSECTION=symptoms
>
> Symptoms include:
>
> * Moderate to severe headaches that may originate behind the eyes
>
> * Ringing in the ears that pulses in time with your heartbeat
>
> * Nausea, vomiting or dizziness
>
> * Blurred or dimmed vision
>
> * Brief episodes of blindness, lasting only a few seconds and affecting one or both eyes (visual obscurations)
>
> * Difficulty seeing to the side
>
> * Double vision (diplopia)
>
> * Seeing light flashes (photopsia)
>
> * Neck, shoulder or back pain
>
>
> - ScottAre there too many risks associated with taking antibiotics for so long?
ihatedrugs
Posted by Bob on January 31, 2013, at 16:32:23
In reply to Re: question on minocycline » SLS, posted by ihatedrugs on January 31, 2013, at 16:27:56
> > > Wow, thanks Scott! Almost sounds too good to be true. I know that you have had some success with it. About how much do you think it has helped you and when did you start noticing its effects? Did you also notice that it helped with motivation or anhedonia? Sometimes it feels like it hurts my brain just to think!
> >
> > I and one other person experienced an improvement within the first week. It is important to take note that we both are also taking Lamictal and Abilify. The other person achieved full remission within two weeks. I am not quite so lucky, but, from what I understand, it can take a full year for some people. I figure it is worth the wait. I would say that motivation and anhedonia are significantly improved in me. Although I have had brief "blip" improvements in the past that have been more robust, I have not felt this well consistently in 25 years. If I do get stuck, I would consider TMS or ketamine treatments to move things along.
> >
> > To summarize, minocycline:
> >
> > 1. Reduces glutamate hyperactivity.
> > 2. Reduces glutamate excitotoxicity (neuroprotective).
> > 3. Reduces brain inflammation.
> > 4. Increases neuroplasticity by enhancing the neurite growth produced by nerve growth factor (NGF).
> >
> > Of these, I believe that it is #1 that is the most important for the acute improvement that occurs early in treatment. If so, then one might pursue the idea of adding an antiglutamatergic agent to enhance the effects of minocycline. Lamictal is an obvious choice. Memantine would be another drug to look at as well as N-acetylcysteine (NAC). I believe that #4 would also contribute to the acute therapeutic effect. It may be that the anti-inflammatory properties of minocycline become important to produce a sustained therapeutic effect. Interestingly, in animal models, adding minocycline to the TCA, desipramine, produced a greater antidepressant effect than desipramine alone. I am currently taking nortriptyline, another TCA.
> >
> > The most important side effect of minocycline to screen for is brain swelling (pseudotumor cerebri). It is rare, but dangerous.
> >
> > http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/pseudotumor-cerebri/DS00851/DSECTION=symptoms
> >
> > Symptoms include:
> >
> > * Moderate to severe headaches that may originate behind the eyes
> >
> > * Ringing in the ears that pulses in time with your heartbeat
> >
> > * Nausea, vomiting or dizziness
> >
> > * Blurred or dimmed vision
> >
> > * Brief episodes of blindness, lasting only a few seconds and affecting one or both eyes (visual obscurations)
> >
> > * Difficulty seeing to the side
> >
> > * Double vision (diplopia)
> >
> > * Seeing light flashes (photopsia)
> >
> > * Neck, shoulder or back pain
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> Are there too many risks associated with taking antibiotics for so long?
>
>
> ihatedrugs
My question is along these lines as well. Is the intention to take these antibiotics indefinitely if they seem to help? Obviously if some are responding after a year or so then they are on this for quite a long time.Bob
Posted by alchemy on January 31, 2013, at 16:46:48
In reply to Re: question on minocycline » alchemy, posted by SLS on January 31, 2013, at 15:09:26
> > Wow, thanks Scott! Almost sounds too good to be true. I know that you have had some success with it. About how much do you think it has helped you and when did you start noticing its effects? Did you also notice that it helped with motivation or anhedonia? Sometimes it feels like it hurts my brain just to think!
>
> I and one other person experienced an improvement within the first week. It is important to take note that we both are also taking Lamictal and Abilify. The other person achieved full remission within two weeks. I am not quite so lucky, but, from what I understand, it can take a full year for some people. I figure it is worth the wait. I would say that motivation and anhedonia are significantly improved in me. Although I have had brief "blip" improvements in the past that have been more robust, I have not felt this well consistently in 25 years. If I do get stuck, I would consider TMS or ketamine treatments to move things along.
>
> To summarize, minocycline:
>
> 1. Reduces glutamate hyperactivity.
> 2. Reduces glutamate excitotoxicity (neuroprotective).
> 3. Reduces brain inflammation.
> 4. Increases neuroplasticity by enhancing the neurite growth produced by nerve growth factor (NGF).
>
> Of these, I believe that it is #1 that is the most important for the acute improvement that occurs early in treatment. If so, then one might pursue the idea of adding an antiglutamatergic agent to enhance the effects of minocycline. Lamictal is an obvious choice. Memantine would be another drug to look at as well as N-acetylcysteine (NAC). I believe that #4 would also contribute to the acute therapeutic effect. It may be that the anti-inflammatory properties of minocycline become important to produce a sustained therapeutic effect. Interestingly, in animal models, adding minocycline to the TCA, desipramine, produced a greater antidepressant effect than desipramine alone. I am currently taking nortriptyline, another TCA.I also take Lamictal, although I think the only benefit it gives me is help with agitation. Abilify makes me more depressed. I also try and take NAC daily. I have tried desipramine found it neutral except for side effects (at least it didn't worsen my mood).
Unfortunately, TMS did not really help me. I have been trying to figure out how to try ketamine. I failed the requirements for a trial and know that it is expensive. So far I haven't found any doctors who administer it for depression. And then there is the question of long-term use back-firing on me.
Posted by SLS on January 31, 2013, at 16:54:06
In reply to Re: question on minocycline » SLS, posted by ihatedrugs on January 31, 2013, at 16:27:56
> Are there too many risks associated with taking antibiotics for so long?
I'm not aware of any with minocycline.
- Scott
Posted by alchemy on February 1, 2013, at 15:41:21
In reply to Re: question on minocycline » ihatedrugs, posted by Bob on January 31, 2013, at 16:32:23
He was again basically saying we have reached the end of the road. After I asked to try minocycline he was hesitant and said that this is not usually how he practices. He looked up some research info and gave me a script. So here we go. At least it won't make me worse and i have something else to try to give me some hope!
Posted by SLS on February 1, 2013, at 16:02:51
In reply to twisted pdocs arm for minocycline, posted by alchemy on February 1, 2013, at 15:41:21
> He was again basically saying we have reached the end of the road. After I asked to try minocycline he was hesitant and said that this is not usually how he practices. He looked up some research info and gave me a script. So here we go. At least it won't make me worse and i have something else to try to give me some hope!
Good luck.
What dosage will you be taking?
What other drugs are you taking?
Be prepared to feel a little "off" for the first few days. It is more of a malaise feeling than a depressed feeling, but can easily be mistaken for a worsening of depression. Alternatively, you might feel too activated or agitated. With a little luck, you will be feeling noticeably better 10 days from now.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on February 1, 2013, at 20:53:57
In reply to twisted pdocs arm for minocycline, posted by alchemy on February 1, 2013, at 15:41:21
Alchemy I felt dizzy and had headache. Since was taking for peri oral dermatitis went to topicals. I still have a current bottle of it not expired will see how you do. Phillipa
Posted by alchemy on February 4, 2013, at 20:01:20
In reply to Re: twisted pdocs arm for minocycline » alchemy, posted by SLS on February 1, 2013, at 16:02:51
> What dosage will you be taking?
>
> What other drugs are you taking?
>
> Be prepared to feel a little "off" for the first few days. It is more of a malaise feeling than a depressed feeling, but can easily be mistaken for a worsening of depression. Alternatively, you might feel too activated or agitated. With a little luck, you will be feeling noticeably better 10 days from now.
>
>
> - ScottI will be taking 50mg for the first week and then 100mg. So far i havent noticed anything. I really hope it helps.
I am also on lamictal, celexa, synthroid and xanax.
Posted by Phillipa on February 4, 2013, at 21:41:44
In reply to Re: twisted pdocs arm for minocycline » SLS, posted by alchemy on February 4, 2013, at 20:01:20
Alchemy that's great. Keep updating? Phillipa
Posted by Emme_V2 on February 5, 2013, at 22:25:08
In reply to Re: twisted pdocs arm for minocycline » SLS, posted by alchemy on February 4, 2013, at 20:01:20
> > What dosage will you be taking?
> >
> > What other drugs are you taking?
> >
> > Be prepared to feel a little "off" for the first few days. It is more of a malaise feeling than a depressed feeling, but can easily be mistaken for a worsening of depression. Alternatively, you might feel too activated or agitated. With a little luck, you will be feeling noticeably better 10 days from now.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> I will be taking 50mg for the first week and then 100mg. So far i havent noticed anything. I really hope it helps.
>
> I am also on lamictal, celexa, synthroid and xanax.
>Good luck with the trial. I don't think there's a whole lot of clinical experience with this drug for depression, so we're sort of guinea pigs in a way. It's probably worth being patient. The doctor who recommended it for me told me that he'd seen it effect a big change for someone over the course of many months. I felt some benefit right away, but hope that I'll also see continued improvement with time. So far it's been really helpful.
Posted by alchemy on February 6, 2013, at 10:52:52
In reply to Re: twisted pdocs arm for minocycline » alchemy, posted by Emme_V2 on February 5, 2013, at 22:25:08
Scott and Emme,
What dose are you taking?
Posted by SLS on February 6, 2013, at 11:08:33
In reply to Re: twisted pdocs arm for minocycline, posted by alchemy on February 6, 2013, at 10:52:52
> Scott and Emme,
> What dose are you taking?
Hi.I'm at 200 mg/day (100 mg b.i.d.).
100 mg/day was not enough for me. Most of the current clinical trials of minocycline use dosages that are greater than 100 mg/day.
- Scott
Posted by alchemy on February 6, 2013, at 11:30:47
In reply to Re: twisted pdocs arm for minocycline » alchemy, posted by SLS on February 6, 2013, at 11:08:33
> > Scott and Emme,
> > What dose are you taking?
>
>
> Hi.
>
> I'm at 200 mg/day (100 mg b.i.d.).
>
> 100 mg/day was not enough for me. Most of the current clinical trials of minocycline use dosages that are greater than 100 mg/day.
>
>
> - ScottThanks. That may mean more twisting. How long were you at 100mg? It's been weird that my acne seems to be getting worse when it is also suppose to help acne.
Posted by Bob on February 6, 2013, at 13:12:45
In reply to Re: twisted pdocs arm for minocycline » alchemy, posted by SLS on February 6, 2013, at 11:08:33
> > Scott and Emme,
> > What dose are you taking?
>
>
> Hi.
>
> I'm at 200 mg/day (100 mg b.i.d.).
>
> 100 mg/day was not enough for me. Most of the current clinical trials of minocycline use dosages that are greater than 100 mg/day.
>
>
> - ScottBtw Scott... A link you posted a little while back had info about a study done with Minocycline as well as aspirin. Have you ever mixed aspirin with the Minocycline? Have you ever tried aspirin in your med combo in any way as a psychiatric treatment?
Bob
Posted by SLS on February 8, 2013, at 13:25:01
In reply to Re: twisted pdocs arm for minocycline » SLS, posted by alchemy on February 6, 2013, at 11:30:47
> > > Scott and Emme,
> > > What dose are you taking?
> >
> >
> > Hi.
> >
> > I'm at 200 mg/day (100 mg b.i.d.).
> >
> > 100 mg/day was not enough for me. Most of the current clinical trials of minocycline use dosages that are greater than 100 mg/day.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> Thanks. That may mean more twisting. How long were you at 100mg? It's been weird that my acne seems to be getting worse when it is also suppose to help acne.I was supposed to start treatment at 200 mg/day. I opted to start at 100 mg/day to minimize any startup side effects. I think I waited only three days before increasing to 200 mg/day. I felt better within 24 hours.
Most of the current studies of minocycline for use in depression use 200 mg/day.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on February 8, 2013, at 13:51:00
In reply to Re: twisted pdocs arm for minocycline » SLS, posted by Bob on February 6, 2013, at 13:12:45
Hi Bob.
> Btw Scott... A link you posted a little while back had info about a study done with Minocycline as well as aspirin. Have you ever mixed aspirin with the Minocycline? Have you ever tried aspirin in your med combo in any way as a psychiatric treatment?
I have been taking aspirin 81 mg/day for a few years now for the prevention of heart disease. It has had no effect on my depressive disorder as far as I can tell. The minocycline/aspirin treatment study is interesting, but I am not convinced that it is the anti-inflammatory properties of minocycline that is most responsible for its acute antidepressant effect. I would look more closely at its modulation of glutamate activity. In the long-term, anti-inflammatory effects may play a role. I really don't know.
- Scott
Posted by alchemy on February 10, 2013, at 17:42:40
In reply to Re: twisted pdocs arm for minocycline, posted by SLS on February 8, 2013, at 13:25:01
> > > > Scott and Emme,
> > > > What dose are you taking?
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi.
> > >
> > > I'm at 200 mg/day (100 mg b.i.d.).
> > >
> > > 100 mg/day was not enough for me. Most of the current clinical trials of minocycline use dosages that are greater than 100 mg/day.
> > >
> > >
> > > - Scott
> >
> > Thanks. That may mean more twisting. How long were you at 100mg? It's been weird that my acne seems to be getting worse when it is also suppose to help acne.
>
> I was supposed to start treatment at 200 mg/day. I opted to start at 100 mg/day to minimize any startup side effects. I think I waited only three days before increasing to 200 mg/day. I felt better within 24 hours.
>
> Most of the current studies of minocycline for use in depression use 200 mg/day.
>
> http://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=minocycline+clinicaltrials+depression&oq=minocycline+clinicaltrials+depression&fp=2eb32f2343d78871
>Within 24 hrs? Wow. Was it very subtle or a definite change?
Posted by SLS on February 10, 2013, at 19:44:47
In reply to Re: twisted pdocs arm for minocycline, posted by alchemy on February 10, 2013, at 17:42:40
> Within 24 hrs? Wow. Was it very subtle or a definite change?
It was certainly noticeable, but I would not call it robust. That's just me, of course.
- Scott
Posted by alchemy on February 17, 2013, at 19:59:34
In reply to Re: twisted pdocs arm for minocycline » alchemy, posted by SLS on February 10, 2013, at 19:44:47
I started to get constant headaches and it made it even harder to think so I have ended my trial.
Posted by SLS on February 17, 2013, at 20:27:20
In reply to Re: twisted pdocs arm for minocycline, posted by alchemy on February 17, 2013, at 19:59:34
> I started to get constant headaches and it made it even harder to think so I have ended my trial.
Headaches are not good. Did you also experience double-vision?
I'm sorry things didn't work out.
- Scott
Posted by alchemy on February 18, 2013, at 1:13:02
In reply to Re: twisted pdocs arm for minocycline, posted by SLS on February 17, 2013, at 20:27:20
> > I started to get constant headaches and it made it even harder to think so I have ended my trial.
>
> Headaches are not good. Did you also experience double-vision?
>
> I'm sorry things didn't work out.
>
>
> - ScottI didnt have any double vision. It looks like in some cases it can cause intracranial pressure. And no pain reliever would help. The paradoxical acne it caused continued as well, although I would have put up with it if it helped my mood!
Are you still seeing benefits with it?
Posted by SLS on February 18, 2013, at 5:49:24
In reply to Re: twisted pdocs arm for minocycline » SLS, posted by alchemy on February 18, 2013, at 1:13:02
> > > I started to get constant headaches and it made it even harder to think so I have ended my trial.
> > Headaches are not good. Did you also experience double-vision?
> >
> > I'm sorry things didn't work out.
> I didnt have any double vision. It looks like in some cases it can cause intracranial pressure.Yes. I usually make note of this when discussing minocyline with people.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20130124/msgs/1036982.html
> Are you still seeing benefits with it?
Yes.
What are you currently taking?
- Scott
Posted by Vincent_QC on February 22, 2013, at 15:17:24
In reply to Re: twisted pdocs arm for minocycline, posted by alchemy on February 17, 2013, at 19:59:34
> I started to get constant headaches and it made it even harder to think so I have ended my trial.
Hummm, why taking minocycline first? I took it several times in my life for acne and I always got terrible headache with it and more anxiety as well... I don't think it's a good antibiotic at all, do nothing for my acne problem...the tetracycline was far better for me and never had side-effects from it... but tolerance to antibiotics appear fast so always need to switch from the tetracycline to the minocycline and then the strong and bad drug call Acutane...took that drug 4 times for 4 months each time, with 2 months break between each trail... my face look nice now for sure, no pimples at all, no skin problem or no acne marks at all, but major dry skin all the time, even after 5 years my skin is dry, lips and some parts of my body like my hands or elbows...The acutane was perfect to clear my face from all the pimples I had for sure but give terrible side-effects as well...panic attacks, migraine, pressure inside my head, low mood...to name a few...
Some antibiotics are not good for anxiety, cipro for example and the very old peniciline, they are gaba antagonist and they stop the effect of the natural gaba produce in the brain who bring the calm and relaxed state of minds...no wonder why they have side-effects related to the overstimulation of the CNS... they also block the anti-anxiety effects of the benzo meds... I discover it by accident when my Doc put me on the cipro for an infection that I don't remember? (Bad memory here...lol)... was already on the Klonopin and as soon as I take 1 cipro pill I start feeling anxious and ending with some panic attacks for the whole time the drug was in my system...things get better 24 h later and never take it again...
I have to take some clarithromycine (Biaxin) soon for my intestinal problems... but i'm scare to death... since it's messing up the gaba system, like the cipro... so we are working out to find another antibiotic who will be able to give some relief from the bloating, pain and gas... I know that in the USA, they just discover that one antibiotic give very good results for IBS symptoms relief, but we don't have it in the Canada and it will not be release here... before, the Flagyl was the gold standard treatment in that kind of symptoms, took it too often and now it's doing nothing for me...it not kill the bacterias inside my intestine anymore...
Well, maybe minocycline show some promising effects on depression... but for anxiety it's a no no...headache and anxiety is the main symptom of that antibiotic... My sister is allergic to it, maybe i'm allergic to it also, who know... lol
This is the end of the thread.
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