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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by rovers95 on January 30, 2013, at 17:55:08
In reply to Re: Inadvertent experiment. » SLS, posted by ihatedrugs on January 30, 2013, at 2:50:48
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16677714
Had to jump in with this study on cycloserine here, a very small sample but checked it out because I thought cycloserine might be worth a go.
I tried minocycline and I'm not sure it did anything after a while, perhaps the brain adapts to these drugs as well?
cheers
Rover
Posted by SLS on January 31, 2013, at 10:26:40
In reply to question on minocycline, posted by alchemy on January 30, 2013, at 16:43:56
> Scott,
> I have an apt tomorrow with my pdoc who basically said we have reached the end of the road. Have you found minocycline to help very much? What could I tell my dr to convince him?
> ThanksMinocycline:
1. Is neuroprotective.
2. Reduces brain inflammation
3. Reduces the number of glutamate receptors.
4. Demonstrates antidepressant properties in mouse models of depression.
5. Is reported to act synergistically with noradrenergic antidepressants to treat depression - desipramine (but not fluoxetine).
6. Is reported to act synergistically with NMDA antagonists.
7. Reduces glutamate excitotoxicity by reducing the formation of quinolic acid, a NMDA agonist.
8. Reduces mitochondrial release of cytochrome C.
9. Modulates several signaling pathways.
10. Reduces microglial activation.
11. Has been reported anecdotally to successively treat depression.
12. Reduces the expression of lipopolysaccharide-induced pro-inflammation cytokines, an effect that acts as an antidepressant in animal models.
13. Increases neurite growth in response to nerve growth factor (NGF).
14. Inhibits high levels of PKC and GSK-3 alpha;
15. Decreases nitric oxide synthetase, thereby reducing free radicals which damage neurons and glia.
16. Reduces glutamate release.It has been suggested that minocycline might act synergistically with Lamictal to reduce glutamate activity and improve depression.
The following article contains a review of the rationale for using minocycline to treat mood disorders:
http://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/2/1/e000643.full
- Scott
Posted by alchemy on January 31, 2013, at 13:02:21
In reply to Re: question on minocycline » alchemy, posted by SLS on January 31, 2013, at 10:26:40
Wow, thanks Scott! Almost sounds too good to be true. I know that you have had some success with it. About how much do you think it has helped you and when did you start noticing its effects? Did you also notice that it helped with motivation or anhedonia? Sometimes it feels like it hurts my brain just to think!
Posted by SLS on January 31, 2013, at 15:09:26
In reply to Re: question on minocycline, posted by alchemy on January 31, 2013, at 13:02:21
> Wow, thanks Scott! Almost sounds too good to be true. I know that you have had some success with it. About how much do you think it has helped you and when did you start noticing its effects? Did you also notice that it helped with motivation or anhedonia? Sometimes it feels like it hurts my brain just to think!
I and one other person experienced an improvement within the first week. It is important to take note that we both are also taking Lamictal and Abilify. The other person achieved full remission within two weeks. I am not quite so lucky, but, from what I understand, it can take a full year for some people. I figure it is worth the wait. I would say that motivation and anhedonia are significantly improved in me. Although I have had brief "blip" improvements in the past that have been more robust, I have not felt this well consistently in 25 years. If I do get stuck, I would consider TMS or ketamine treatments to move things along.
To summarize, minocycline:
1. Reduces glutamate hyperactivity.
2. Reduces glutamate excitotoxicity (neuroprotective).
3. Reduces brain inflammation.
4. Increases neuroplasticity by enhancing the neurite growth produced by nerve growth factor (NGF).Of these, I believe that it is #1 that is the most important for the acute improvement that occurs early in treatment. If so, then one might pursue the idea of adding an antiglutamatergic agent to enhance the effects of minocycline. Lamictal is an obvious choice. Memantine would be another drug to look at as well as N-acetylcysteine (NAC). I believe that #4 would also contribute to the acute therapeutic effect. It may be that the anti-inflammatory properties of minocycline become important to produce a sustained therapeutic effect. Interestingly, in animal models, adding minocycline to the TCA, desipramine, produced a greater antidepressant effect than desipramine alone. I am currently taking nortriptyline, another TCA.
The most important side effect of minocycline to screen for is brain swelling (pseudotumor cerebri). It is rare, but dangerous.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/pseudotumor-cerebri/DS00851/DSECTION=symptoms
Symptoms include:
* Moderate to severe headaches that may originate behind the eyes
* Ringing in the ears that pulses in time with your heartbeat
* Nausea, vomiting or dizziness
* Blurred or dimmed vision
* Brief episodes of blindness, lasting only a few seconds and affecting one or both eyes (visual obscurations)
* Difficulty seeing to the side
* Double vision (diplopia)
* Seeing light flashes (photopsia)
* Neck, shoulder or back pain
- Scott
Posted by ihatedrugs on January 31, 2013, at 16:27:56
In reply to Re: question on minocycline » alchemy, posted by SLS on January 31, 2013, at 15:09:26
> > Wow, thanks Scott! Almost sounds too good to be true. I know that you have had some success with it. About how much do you think it has helped you and when did you start noticing its effects? Did you also notice that it helped with motivation or anhedonia? Sometimes it feels like it hurts my brain just to think!
>
> I and one other person experienced an improvement within the first week. It is important to take note that we both are also taking Lamictal and Abilify. The other person achieved full remission within two weeks. I am not quite so lucky, but, from what I understand, it can take a full year for some people. I figure it is worth the wait. I would say that motivation and anhedonia are significantly improved in me. Although I have had brief "blip" improvements in the past that have been more robust, I have not felt this well consistently in 25 years. If I do get stuck, I would consider TMS or ketamine treatments to move things along.
>
> To summarize, minocycline:
>
> 1. Reduces glutamate hyperactivity.
> 2. Reduces glutamate excitotoxicity (neuroprotective).
> 3. Reduces brain inflammation.
> 4. Increases neuroplasticity by enhancing the neurite growth produced by nerve growth factor (NGF).
>
> Of these, I believe that it is #1 that is the most important for the acute improvement that occurs early in treatment. If so, then one might pursue the idea of adding an antiglutamatergic agent to enhance the effects of minocycline. Lamictal is an obvious choice. Memantine would be another drug to look at as well as N-acetylcysteine (NAC). I believe that #4 would also contribute to the acute therapeutic effect. It may be that the anti-inflammatory properties of minocycline become important to produce a sustained therapeutic effect. Interestingly, in animal models, adding minocycline to the TCA, desipramine, produced a greater antidepressant effect than desipramine alone. I am currently taking nortriptyline, another TCA.
>
> The most important side effect of minocycline to screen for is brain swelling (pseudotumor cerebri). It is rare, but dangerous.
>
> http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/pseudotumor-cerebri/DS00851/DSECTION=symptoms
>
> Symptoms include:
>
> * Moderate to severe headaches that may originate behind the eyes
>
> * Ringing in the ears that pulses in time with your heartbeat
>
> * Nausea, vomiting or dizziness
>
> * Blurred or dimmed vision
>
> * Brief episodes of blindness, lasting only a few seconds and affecting one or both eyes (visual obscurations)
>
> * Difficulty seeing to the side
>
> * Double vision (diplopia)
>
> * Seeing light flashes (photopsia)
>
> * Neck, shoulder or back pain
>
>
> - ScottAre there too many risks associated with taking antibiotics for so long?
ihatedrugs
Posted by Bob on January 31, 2013, at 16:32:23
In reply to Re: question on minocycline » SLS, posted by ihatedrugs on January 31, 2013, at 16:27:56
> > > Wow, thanks Scott! Almost sounds too good to be true. I know that you have had some success with it. About how much do you think it has helped you and when did you start noticing its effects? Did you also notice that it helped with motivation or anhedonia? Sometimes it feels like it hurts my brain just to think!
> >
> > I and one other person experienced an improvement within the first week. It is important to take note that we both are also taking Lamictal and Abilify. The other person achieved full remission within two weeks. I am not quite so lucky, but, from what I understand, it can take a full year for some people. I figure it is worth the wait. I would say that motivation and anhedonia are significantly improved in me. Although I have had brief "blip" improvements in the past that have been more robust, I have not felt this well consistently in 25 years. If I do get stuck, I would consider TMS or ketamine treatments to move things along.
> >
> > To summarize, minocycline:
> >
> > 1. Reduces glutamate hyperactivity.
> > 2. Reduces glutamate excitotoxicity (neuroprotective).
> > 3. Reduces brain inflammation.
> > 4. Increases neuroplasticity by enhancing the neurite growth produced by nerve growth factor (NGF).
> >
> > Of these, I believe that it is #1 that is the most important for the acute improvement that occurs early in treatment. If so, then one might pursue the idea of adding an antiglutamatergic agent to enhance the effects of minocycline. Lamictal is an obvious choice. Memantine would be another drug to look at as well as N-acetylcysteine (NAC). I believe that #4 would also contribute to the acute therapeutic effect. It may be that the anti-inflammatory properties of minocycline become important to produce a sustained therapeutic effect. Interestingly, in animal models, adding minocycline to the TCA, desipramine, produced a greater antidepressant effect than desipramine alone. I am currently taking nortriptyline, another TCA.
> >
> > The most important side effect of minocycline to screen for is brain swelling (pseudotumor cerebri). It is rare, but dangerous.
> >
> > http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/pseudotumor-cerebri/DS00851/DSECTION=symptoms
> >
> > Symptoms include:
> >
> > * Moderate to severe headaches that may originate behind the eyes
> >
> > * Ringing in the ears that pulses in time with your heartbeat
> >
> > * Nausea, vomiting or dizziness
> >
> > * Blurred or dimmed vision
> >
> > * Brief episodes of blindness, lasting only a few seconds and affecting one or both eyes (visual obscurations)
> >
> > * Difficulty seeing to the side
> >
> > * Double vision (diplopia)
> >
> > * Seeing light flashes (photopsia)
> >
> > * Neck, shoulder or back pain
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> Are there too many risks associated with taking antibiotics for so long?
>
>
> ihatedrugs
My question is along these lines as well. Is the intention to take these antibiotics indefinitely if they seem to help? Obviously if some are responding after a year or so then they are on this for quite a long time.Bob
Posted by alchemy on January 31, 2013, at 16:46:48
In reply to Re: question on minocycline » alchemy, posted by SLS on January 31, 2013, at 15:09:26
> > Wow, thanks Scott! Almost sounds too good to be true. I know that you have had some success with it. About how much do you think it has helped you and when did you start noticing its effects? Did you also notice that it helped with motivation or anhedonia? Sometimes it feels like it hurts my brain just to think!
>
> I and one other person experienced an improvement within the first week. It is important to take note that we both are also taking Lamictal and Abilify. The other person achieved full remission within two weeks. I am not quite so lucky, but, from what I understand, it can take a full year for some people. I figure it is worth the wait. I would say that motivation and anhedonia are significantly improved in me. Although I have had brief "blip" improvements in the past that have been more robust, I have not felt this well consistently in 25 years. If I do get stuck, I would consider TMS or ketamine treatments to move things along.
>
> To summarize, minocycline:
>
> 1. Reduces glutamate hyperactivity.
> 2. Reduces glutamate excitotoxicity (neuroprotective).
> 3. Reduces brain inflammation.
> 4. Increases neuroplasticity by enhancing the neurite growth produced by nerve growth factor (NGF).
>
> Of these, I believe that it is #1 that is the most important for the acute improvement that occurs early in treatment. If so, then one might pursue the idea of adding an antiglutamatergic agent to enhance the effects of minocycline. Lamictal is an obvious choice. Memantine would be another drug to look at as well as N-acetylcysteine (NAC). I believe that #4 would also contribute to the acute therapeutic effect. It may be that the anti-inflammatory properties of minocycline become important to produce a sustained therapeutic effect. Interestingly, in animal models, adding minocycline to the TCA, desipramine, produced a greater antidepressant effect than desipramine alone. I am currently taking nortriptyline, another TCA.I also take Lamictal, although I think the only benefit it gives me is help with agitation. Abilify makes me more depressed. I also try and take NAC daily. I have tried desipramine found it neutral except for side effects (at least it didn't worsen my mood).
Unfortunately, TMS did not really help me. I have been trying to figure out how to try ketamine. I failed the requirements for a trial and know that it is expensive. So far I haven't found any doctors who administer it for depression. And then there is the question of long-term use back-firing on me.
Posted by SLS on January 31, 2013, at 16:54:06
In reply to Re: question on minocycline » SLS, posted by ihatedrugs on January 31, 2013, at 16:27:56
> Are there too many risks associated with taking antibiotics for so long?
I'm not aware of any with minocycline.
- Scott
Posted by alchemy on February 1, 2013, at 15:41:21
In reply to Re: question on minocycline » ihatedrugs, posted by Bob on January 31, 2013, at 16:32:23
He was again basically saying we have reached the end of the road. After I asked to try minocycline he was hesitant and said that this is not usually how he practices. He looked up some research info and gave me a script. So here we go. At least it won't make me worse and i have something else to try to give me some hope!
Posted by SLS on February 1, 2013, at 16:02:51
In reply to twisted pdocs arm for minocycline, posted by alchemy on February 1, 2013, at 15:41:21
> He was again basically saying we have reached the end of the road. After I asked to try minocycline he was hesitant and said that this is not usually how he practices. He looked up some research info and gave me a script. So here we go. At least it won't make me worse and i have something else to try to give me some hope!
Good luck.
What dosage will you be taking?
What other drugs are you taking?
Be prepared to feel a little "off" for the first few days. It is more of a malaise feeling than a depressed feeling, but can easily be mistaken for a worsening of depression. Alternatively, you might feel too activated or agitated. With a little luck, you will be feeling noticeably better 10 days from now.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on February 1, 2013, at 20:53:57
In reply to twisted pdocs arm for minocycline, posted by alchemy on February 1, 2013, at 15:41:21
Alchemy I felt dizzy and had headache. Since was taking for peri oral dermatitis went to topicals. I still have a current bottle of it not expired will see how you do. Phillipa
Posted by alchemy on February 4, 2013, at 20:01:20
In reply to Re: twisted pdocs arm for minocycline » alchemy, posted by SLS on February 1, 2013, at 16:02:51
> What dosage will you be taking?
>
> What other drugs are you taking?
>
> Be prepared to feel a little "off" for the first few days. It is more of a malaise feeling than a depressed feeling, but can easily be mistaken for a worsening of depression. Alternatively, you might feel too activated or agitated. With a little luck, you will be feeling noticeably better 10 days from now.
>
>
> - ScottI will be taking 50mg for the first week and then 100mg. So far i havent noticed anything. I really hope it helps.
I am also on lamictal, celexa, synthroid and xanax.
Posted by Phillipa on February 4, 2013, at 21:41:44
In reply to Re: twisted pdocs arm for minocycline » SLS, posted by alchemy on February 4, 2013, at 20:01:20
Alchemy that's great. Keep updating? Phillipa
Posted by Emme_V2 on February 5, 2013, at 22:25:08
In reply to Re: twisted pdocs arm for minocycline » SLS, posted by alchemy on February 4, 2013, at 20:01:20
> > What dosage will you be taking?
> >
> > What other drugs are you taking?
> >
> > Be prepared to feel a little "off" for the first few days. It is more of a malaise feeling than a depressed feeling, but can easily be mistaken for a worsening of depression. Alternatively, you might feel too activated or agitated. With a little luck, you will be feeling noticeably better 10 days from now.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> I will be taking 50mg for the first week and then 100mg. So far i havent noticed anything. I really hope it helps.
>
> I am also on lamictal, celexa, synthroid and xanax.
>Good luck with the trial. I don't think there's a whole lot of clinical experience with this drug for depression, so we're sort of guinea pigs in a way. It's probably worth being patient. The doctor who recommended it for me told me that he'd seen it effect a big change for someone over the course of many months. I felt some benefit right away, but hope that I'll also see continued improvement with time. So far it's been really helpful.
Posted by alchemy on February 6, 2013, at 10:52:52
In reply to Re: twisted pdocs arm for minocycline » alchemy, posted by Emme_V2 on February 5, 2013, at 22:25:08
Scott and Emme,
What dose are you taking?
Posted by SLS on February 6, 2013, at 11:08:33
In reply to Re: twisted pdocs arm for minocycline, posted by alchemy on February 6, 2013, at 10:52:52
> Scott and Emme,
> What dose are you taking?
Hi.I'm at 200 mg/day (100 mg b.i.d.).
100 mg/day was not enough for me. Most of the current clinical trials of minocycline use dosages that are greater than 100 mg/day.
- Scott
Posted by alchemy on February 6, 2013, at 11:30:47
In reply to Re: twisted pdocs arm for minocycline » alchemy, posted by SLS on February 6, 2013, at 11:08:33
> > Scott and Emme,
> > What dose are you taking?
>
>
> Hi.
>
> I'm at 200 mg/day (100 mg b.i.d.).
>
> 100 mg/day was not enough for me. Most of the current clinical trials of minocycline use dosages that are greater than 100 mg/day.
>
>
> - ScottThanks. That may mean more twisting. How long were you at 100mg? It's been weird that my acne seems to be getting worse when it is also suppose to help acne.
Posted by Bob on February 6, 2013, at 13:12:45
In reply to Re: twisted pdocs arm for minocycline » alchemy, posted by SLS on February 6, 2013, at 11:08:33
> > Scott and Emme,
> > What dose are you taking?
>
>
> Hi.
>
> I'm at 200 mg/day (100 mg b.i.d.).
>
> 100 mg/day was not enough for me. Most of the current clinical trials of minocycline use dosages that are greater than 100 mg/day.
>
>
> - ScottBtw Scott... A link you posted a little while back had info about a study done with Minocycline as well as aspirin. Have you ever mixed aspirin with the Minocycline? Have you ever tried aspirin in your med combo in any way as a psychiatric treatment?
Bob
Posted by SLS on February 8, 2013, at 13:25:01
In reply to Re: twisted pdocs arm for minocycline » SLS, posted by alchemy on February 6, 2013, at 11:30:47
> > > Scott and Emme,
> > > What dose are you taking?
> >
> >
> > Hi.
> >
> > I'm at 200 mg/day (100 mg b.i.d.).
> >
> > 100 mg/day was not enough for me. Most of the current clinical trials of minocycline use dosages that are greater than 100 mg/day.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> Thanks. That may mean more twisting. How long were you at 100mg? It's been weird that my acne seems to be getting worse when it is also suppose to help acne.I was supposed to start treatment at 200 mg/day. I opted to start at 100 mg/day to minimize any startup side effects. I think I waited only three days before increasing to 200 mg/day. I felt better within 24 hours.
Most of the current studies of minocycline for use in depression use 200 mg/day.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on February 8, 2013, at 13:51:00
In reply to Re: twisted pdocs arm for minocycline » SLS, posted by Bob on February 6, 2013, at 13:12:45
Hi Bob.
> Btw Scott... A link you posted a little while back had info about a study done with Minocycline as well as aspirin. Have you ever mixed aspirin with the Minocycline? Have you ever tried aspirin in your med combo in any way as a psychiatric treatment?
I have been taking aspirin 81 mg/day for a few years now for the prevention of heart disease. It has had no effect on my depressive disorder as far as I can tell. The minocycline/aspirin treatment study is interesting, but I am not convinced that it is the anti-inflammatory properties of minocycline that is most responsible for its acute antidepressant effect. I would look more closely at its modulation of glutamate activity. In the long-term, anti-inflammatory effects may play a role. I really don't know.
- Scott
Posted by alchemy on February 10, 2013, at 17:42:40
In reply to Re: twisted pdocs arm for minocycline, posted by SLS on February 8, 2013, at 13:25:01
> > > > Scott and Emme,
> > > > What dose are you taking?
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi.
> > >
> > > I'm at 200 mg/day (100 mg b.i.d.).
> > >
> > > 100 mg/day was not enough for me. Most of the current clinical trials of minocycline use dosages that are greater than 100 mg/day.
> > >
> > >
> > > - Scott
> >
> > Thanks. That may mean more twisting. How long were you at 100mg? It's been weird that my acne seems to be getting worse when it is also suppose to help acne.
>
> I was supposed to start treatment at 200 mg/day. I opted to start at 100 mg/day to minimize any startup side effects. I think I waited only three days before increasing to 200 mg/day. I felt better within 24 hours.
>
> Most of the current studies of minocycline for use in depression use 200 mg/day.
>
> http://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=minocycline+clinicaltrials+depression&oq=minocycline+clinicaltrials+depression&fp=2eb32f2343d78871
>Within 24 hrs? Wow. Was it very subtle or a definite change?
Posted by SLS on February 10, 2013, at 19:44:47
In reply to Re: twisted pdocs arm for minocycline, posted by alchemy on February 10, 2013, at 17:42:40
> Within 24 hrs? Wow. Was it very subtle or a definite change?
It was certainly noticeable, but I would not call it robust. That's just me, of course.
- Scott
Posted by alchemy on February 17, 2013, at 19:59:34
In reply to Re: twisted pdocs arm for minocycline » alchemy, posted by SLS on February 10, 2013, at 19:44:47
I started to get constant headaches and it made it even harder to think so I have ended my trial.
Posted by SLS on February 17, 2013, at 20:27:20
In reply to Re: twisted pdocs arm for minocycline, posted by alchemy on February 17, 2013, at 19:59:34
> I started to get constant headaches and it made it even harder to think so I have ended my trial.
Headaches are not good. Did you also experience double-vision?
I'm sorry things didn't work out.
- Scott
Posted by alchemy on February 18, 2013, at 1:13:02
In reply to Re: twisted pdocs arm for minocycline, posted by SLS on February 17, 2013, at 20:27:20
> > I started to get constant headaches and it made it even harder to think so I have ended my trial.
>
> Headaches are not good. Did you also experience double-vision?
>
> I'm sorry things didn't work out.
>
>
> - ScottI didnt have any double vision. It looks like in some cases it can cause intracranial pressure. And no pain reliever would help. The paradoxical acne it caused continued as well, although I would have put up with it if it helped my mood!
Are you still seeing benefits with it?
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