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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Prefect on December 12, 2012, at 21:03:42
Lately going through my relapse I've been giving something a lot of hard thought. Heck, I go through an insane amount of panic and anxiety through out the day, and I'm so good at it by now no one at work even notices. My wife forgets I'm going through a relapse, because I still drive everywhere and do everything while quietly freaking out next to her. I can have a quiet panic attack at work and even find a window of opportunity to respond a something a coworker asks.
This got me wondering what would happen if I just gradually went off my 75 mg /day Luvox all together (which has lost its effectiveness anyway) and put up with the panic and anxiety everyday, had a quiet little panic attack or two a day like I am these days, and like I've been doing for the past 4 months. What would happen?
Wouldn't my head at some point desesitize? Or would it get worse? I keep getting conflicting messages when I try to research this, one school says exposure will desensitize me, the other says untreated anxiety can get progressively worse. But can it, if I'm not succombing to avoidance behavior? How can my brain maintain this for good? Wouldn't I get desensitized?
Posted by Zyprexa on December 12, 2012, at 22:31:33
In reply to What happens if anxiety disorder is unmedicated?, posted by Prefect on December 12, 2012, at 21:03:42
In my experiences it just gets worse, going off meds.
Posted by Phillipa on December 13, 2012, at 0:19:00
In reply to Re: What happens if anxiety disorder is unmedicated? » Prefect, posted by Zyprexa on December 12, 2012, at 22:31:33
Same here same med but add benzos but same problem and it does get worse for me as recently tried to go off. Phillipa
Posted by schleprock on December 13, 2012, at 1:08:09
In reply to What happens if anxiety disorder is unmedicated?, posted by Prefect on December 12, 2012, at 21:03:42
> Lately going through my relapse I've been giving something a lot of hard thought. Heck, I go through an insane amount of panic and anxiety through out the day, and I'm so good at it by now no one at work even notices. My wife forgets I'm going through a relapse, because I still drive everywhere and do everything while quietly freaking out next to her. I can have a quiet panic attack at work and even find a window of opportunity to respond a something a coworker asks.
>
> This got me wondering what would happen if I just gradually went off my 75 mg /day Luvox all together (which has lost its effectiveness anyway) and put up with the panic and anxiety everyday, had a quiet little panic attack or two a day like I am these days, and like I've been doing for the past 4 months. What would happen?
>
> Wouldn't my head at some point desesitize? Or would it get worse? I keep getting conflicting messages when I try to research this, one school says exposure will desensitize me, the other says untreated anxiety can get progressively worse. But can it, if I'm not succombing to avoidance behavior? How can my brain maintain this for good? Wouldn't I get desensitized?If you're able to travel to work and have conversations with your co-workers, then you still have quite a bit of the abyss beneath you. I really don't think you want to go down any further...
Posted by jono_in_adelaide on December 13, 2012, at 16:35:52
In reply to What happens if anxiety disorder is unmedicated?, posted by Prefect on December 12, 2012, at 21:03:42
Wouldn't my head at some point desesitize?
Eventualy the anxiety might burn it self out, but for a lot of people, it doesnt.
I'd be more inclined to increase the Luvox (and maybe add Buspar or Atarax to it) rather than discintinue drugs all together.
Untreated severe anxiety isnt a fun experience
Posted by gadchik on December 14, 2012, at 9:42:03
In reply to Re: What happens if anxiety disorder is unmedicated?, posted by jono_in_adelaide on December 13, 2012, at 16:35:52
psychosis
Posted by schleprock on December 14, 2012, at 16:44:17
In reply to Re: What happens if anxiety disorder is unmedicated?, posted by gadchik on December 14, 2012, at 9:42:03
> psychosis
(likes^^)
Posted by gothiclaw on December 15, 2012, at 13:30:35
In reply to Re: What happens if anxiety disorder is unmedicated? » Prefect, posted by schleprock on December 13, 2012, at 1:08:09
True panick attacks you would not be able to hide, everyone around you would be aware. Cronic anxierty even worse body functions an brain in turmoil , left untreated depresssion would follow work would be out the question you would have no control over anything. Stress attacks are totally a differnt story, just learn to breath your way out. Panick attacks through cronic anxierty often need O-P hospital treatment for benzo injection for instant releaf even if temporary.
Posted by rjlockhart37 on December 15, 2012, at 17:25:43
In reply to Re: What happens if anxiety disorder is unmedicated?, posted by gothiclaw on December 15, 2012, at 13:30:35
its from NE and adrenal glands....and usally there unstable....overactive, then some stuff where the brain loses balance with nuerons and that's what makes you feel like sh*t. I know kinda what your going through ... that sting feeling in the stomach....and everything is making a bad mood out of the day. Dizzy....and during this whole time its like the worst mood ever.
Some other medications.... Nuerontin, or some antipsychotics which block some nuerons in parts of the brain that tune out reality....or make you back to earth. Like can you have a glass of wine, or maybe a little bit of scotich...please don't take that wrong way....i have to drink some kinda of wiskey when im off the charts and can't hold on. Still alcohol is not a good topic to talk about here on babble.
stay clear of wellbutrin....and tell your doctor about the anxiety, tell her/him its effecting your life...mood, work, social life, general living...usally they will go through seroquel, nuerontin, buspar, when those have failed benzos will be used.
Close your eyes and visualize your mind is a machine, computer that controls the body....keep thinking "system stablization, like visualize the nuerons stablizing, and lowering their levels... It works sometimes with me...but its not that effective...i thought it up..lol
you don't need to go off meds that's a cop out, you will be miserable and will eventually have to be hospitized if it gets worse....get control of how you feel talk about it, write it, write exactly how it starts, the trigger, the mid result, and the end result, and try to remove it from happening.
r
Posted by Prefect on December 15, 2012, at 22:05:41
In reply to Re: What happens if anxiety disorder is unmedicated?, posted by gothiclaw on December 15, 2012, at 13:30:35
> True panick attacks you would not be able to hide, everyone around you would be aware. Cronic anxierty even worse body functions an brain in turmoil , left untreated depresssion would follow work would be out the question you would have no control over anything. Stress attacks are totally a differnt story, just learn to breath your way out. Panick attacks through cronic anxierty often need O-P hospital treatment for benzo injection for instant releaf even if temporary.
Some of them are pure anxiety, other ones suddenly culminate into desperately needing a place to escape and feeling like I'm about to lose control, the adrenals then kick in and my heart pounds really fast and then slowly I calm down. These are definitely panic attacks. The reason I can have them at work and nobody notices is that I have so much experience in this through previous relapses over the years that now I can have an attack in such a controlled manner. 15 years ago when I had them I would suddenly sigh in and out, my legs would give under me and I would keel over, and a couple of times they thought I was fainting from low bloood sugar or something and hooking up IVs. People around me (including myself) thought I had a serious illness. Now I know they were panic attacks.
Posted by Prefect on December 15, 2012, at 22:12:55
In reply to Re: Perfect, posted by rjlockhart37 on December 15, 2012, at 17:25:43
rjlockhart37, I find usually I have an easier time getting the anxiety to pass by just letting it happen. At least it worked last episode few years ago. This time around it's come back with some new skills! All I know is my last episode I went into years of remission on only 50 mg of Luvox, and feel there's something to be said about overcoming anxiety through coping skills instead of overmedicating it. I'm trying to do that again, but it's just so hard, because this episode is different from the last one, the anxiety feels different and the attacks are different (they come all of a sudden rather than in response to phobic situations, which is not normal for me) I'm now officially on 100 mg Luvox since 2 days ago.
Posted by gothiclaw on December 16, 2012, at 3:16:51
In reply to Re: Perfect, posted by Prefect on December 15, 2012, at 22:12:55
A lot of ssri,s work well with anxierty , but they take time. Months not weeks first they deal with the first function depression , so takeing benzos now an then between is ok. NEVER NEVER take other meds to deal with side effects there a trade of for feeling better, you carnt have both
Posted by Emme_V2 on December 16, 2012, at 5:59:29
In reply to Re: Perfect » Prefect, posted by gothiclaw on December 16, 2012, at 3:16:51
> A lot of ssri,s work well with anxierty , but they take time. Months not weeks first they deal with the first function depression , so takeing benzos now an then between is ok. NEVER NEVER take other meds to deal with side effects there a trade of for feeling better, you carnt have both
Actually, my experience was that Paxil really eliminated my anxiety within about a week or less. It was a huge relief. It did take a few weeks for the full antidepressant effects to be realized.
Although it theory it would be nice not to have to take another med to counteract the side effects of another, I don't think it's that simple in real life. For example, if something is working extremely well for depression but is causing some anxiety, my personal philosophy is that it makes sense to add something to counteract the anxiety. Simplicity is a great goal, but if you find a combination that works well and helps you feel better with minimal side effects, then that's important.
Posted by Prefect on December 16, 2012, at 10:31:05
In reply to Re: Perfect, posted by rjlockhart37 on December 15, 2012, at 17:25:43
As for alcohol, rjlockhart37, I actually shun it like the plague when I have anxiety. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a drink or two a night when I go through remissions and completely calm (I actually tend to be a very calm and even keel person when I'm not experiencing panic, which is a little odd and possibly the reason I was not diagnosed with anxiety disorder for a long time. Doctors have told me I strike them as a very calm, confident person).
But when I'm anxious, I keep my distance from alcohol, simply because it makes me feel better. The idea of my brain associating alcohol with treatment rather than simple entertainment is honestly VERY SCARY. With my condition I don't need alcohol dependence on top of it. So I tiptoe around my anxiety with alcohol.
I only let myself have a drink when I'm already completely calm.
Posted by Chris O on December 17, 2012, at 3:27:29
In reply to What happens if anxiety disorder is unmedicated?, posted by Prefect on December 12, 2012, at 21:03:42
Prefect:
I think we're all different with respect to this question. Me, I have a massive clinical anxiety disorder that just does not respond to most meds. On and off, I am equally dysfunctional (cannot work a normal job), and equally anxious. It sounds like you were at some point getting effectiveness from the Luvox, but now it has worn off. In that case, perhaps it's better to try a different med, or to wean off of it and see how you feel. I don't know you well enough to say if your anxiety disorder can be treated with desensitization therapy, but if that works for you and can you get off the meds, it seems like something to try. Personally, I have tried a lot of desentization stuff in the past ("faking it until I make it"), and it just did not work for me. I wish that it did, but I just forced myself to do activities in quiet panic ( like you) all the while. Never changed for me. Good luck.
Chris
Posted by SLS on December 17, 2012, at 6:05:47
In reply to Re: What happens if anxiety disorder is unmedicated?, posted by jono_in_adelaide on December 13, 2012, at 16:35:52
> > Wouldn't my head at some point desesitize?
Not necessarily.
Quite the opposite can occur through a kindling-like process, although I imagine your anxiety can't get much worse. Under certain conditions, one can become sensitized rather than desensitized to a repeated external stimulus. Not only that, but the amplification of anxiety to the stimulus can become generalized to a whole class of related stimuli.
Untreated anxiety can lead to depression or perhaps make the anxiety more treatment resistant.
> I'd be more inclined to increase the Luvox (and maybe add Buspar or Atarax to it) rather than discintinue drugs all together.
Those are two great suggestions.
Although it is rarely mentioned here, I have seen Phenergan (promethazine) work as well as Zyprexa in a man with severe anxiety. The switch from Zyprexa to Phenergan was made because of the weight-gain Zyprexa had produced.
- Scott
Posted by Zyprexa on December 20, 2012, at 0:40:31
In reply to Re: Perfect » gothiclaw, posted by Emme_V2 on December 16, 2012, at 5:59:29
I find that taking zyprexa within maybe an hour my panic anxiety is much less. So it does not take weeks or months for an effect. Maybe SSRIs are not as effective, they never did anything for my anxiety. Including Remeron.
So, anxiety leads to psychosis? I belive that. After the oil tank disaster I witnessed and people calling me a murderer. I went compleatly catatonic and thoughts were compleatly out of reality.
I do have anxiety or panic attacks throughout the day at work or around people, not when I'm by myself. Can't help it even medicated, although its much more manigable when medicated. The times I was off my meds I could not even leave the house. But yes I try to play it off as though I'm normal, just work thru it.
Posted by Phillipa on December 20, 2012, at 18:26:54
In reply to Re:/ Anxiety makes me panic, posted by Zyprexa on December 20, 2012, at 0:40:31
What oil tanker disaster? Phillipa
Posted by Zyprexa on December 21, 2012, at 19:41:57
In reply to Re:/ Anxiety makes me panic » Zyprexa, posted by Phillipa on December 20, 2012, at 18:26:54
The one that happened in 95. I posted about it on PB greef or something when it was around under my old name. Don't know if you read about. Anyways my friends were on top of an oil tank that had jet fuel in it, and it some how caught fire and blew up. One died.
Posted by Phillipa on December 21, 2012, at 21:06:49
In reply to Re:/ Anxiety makes me panic » Phillipa, posted by Zyprexa on December 21, 2012, at 19:41:57
Zyprexa don't think on here in 95? Was babble here in 95?
Posted by Zyprexa on December 24, 2012, at 21:57:13
In reply to Re:/ Anxiety makes me panic » Zyprexa, posted by Phillipa on December 21, 2012, at 21:06:49
I wrote about all that in early 2000s.
Posted by LucidDreamer on December 31, 2012, at 3:04:32
In reply to What happens if anxiety disorder is unmedicated?, posted by Prefect on December 12, 2012, at 21:03:42
> Lately going through my relapse I've been giving something a lot of hard thought. Heck, I go through an insane amount of panic and anxiety through out the day, and I'm so good at it by now no one at work even notices. My wife forgets I'm going through a relapse, because I still drive everywhere and do everything while quietly freaking out next to her. I can have a quiet panic attack at work and even find a window of opportunity to respond a something a coworker asks.
>
> This got me wondering what would happen if I just gradually went off my 75 mg /day Luvox all together (which has lost its effectiveness anyway) and put up with the panic and anxiety everyday, had a quiet little panic attack or two a day like I am these days, and like I've been doing for the past 4 months. What would happen?
>
> Wouldn't my head at some point desesitize? Or would it get worse? I keep getting conflicting messages when I try to research this, one school says exposure will desensitize me, the other says untreated anxiety can get progressively worse. But can it, if I'm not succombing to avoidance behavior? How can my brain maintain this for good? Wouldn't I get desensitized?You know that is such a good question, I'm glad you asked it. First of all, it depends how bad the anxiety is. Some people's anxiety is mild enough to be treated without medications by means of self-awareness, mental discipline, behavioral therapy, etc. Now the question of is the level of my anxiety mild enough for me to not have to treat it with meds, is something only the individual can find out. One would have to take a risk, safely get off the meds they're on (that is numbing their anxiety), and try to live their daily lives in that native state. Depending on how bad your anxiety is, you have to show ALOT of courage and mental strengh, to face your day to day anxiety, and not let it slowly kill you. For someone to want to try this, it is CRUCIAL that they are otherwise in good health. Meaning hormones are normal, you're not over stressed, etc. Again whether or not it is possible to leave your anxiety unmedicated, depends on the severity of each individual case. I can't stress enough how much of an impact your day to day environment and lifestyle have on whether you're gonna make it or not. If one's anxiety is simply too severe, things will SLOWLY start to fall apart. Your energy levels will gradually decrease, you will become moody, agitated all the time and will eventually fall into depression, if the severe anxiety is not carefully and properly dealt with. If you relapse like that and leave your anxiety untreated, over time you will suffer the consequences of chronic stress with elevated cortisol levels, alongside the anxiety itself, depression ( which will as everyone knows make the anxiety worse), and you could possibly devolope anhedonia due to all the madness you will be in. But if one is careful and listens to all the signs and uses good judgement, that will not happen. Because either your anxiety will be maintainable to the point where the quality of life has not been diminished, and you're able to function, or you see that you can't handle all the pain, and you go back on a psychiatric medication. Either way, you will only know if you take a leap of faith and and show courage. And as far as desensitization goes, there are a few factors involved. You have to utilize exposure therapy, and face a portion of your anxiety, each time facing various scenarios that trigger a panic/anxiety response. If you utilize great discipline you will be able to desensitize your anxiety to the extent that it won't bother you that much (depending on the severity) and is controllable. The key is to treat the anxiety one step at a time, piece by piece, rather than expose yourself to it entirely, and hope your mind will desensitize. I hope with or without meds you find a way to control your anxiety and not let it control you. Best of luck.
This is the end of the thread.
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