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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by SLS on September 20, 2012, at 7:31:12
Nice article:
http://www.familyhealthguide.co.uk/depressive-illness-the-curse-of-the-strong.html
- Scott
Posted by Zyprexa on September 20, 2012, at 9:27:07
In reply to Depression - an illness of the strong?, posted by SLS on September 20, 2012, at 7:31:12
Pretty much described me.
Posted by phillipa on September 20, 2012, at 10:16:44
In reply to Depression - an illness of the strong?, posted by SLS on September 20, 2012, at 7:31:12
Scott seriously the best article I've every read. Explains me to a tee. I do a lot one day and then feel worse and get confused saying "but I felt so good yesterday?" So then start looking for reasons why med A might be the reason, is it that supplement I took, no wait I shouldn't have taken the motrin, etc. And I've attributed all the tiredness to aging. But reality is so many stressful (manybe not for others) events have happened that my brain hasn't processed them and then the broken trigger invents a new symptom or event to literally "flip" over. Example yesterday here 4 people were hospitalized or returned home from the hospital in this small neighborhood. Leading me to say "oh no everyone is sick and getting old and dying" But not all these people are even old 40's 50's. I guess this is why I look forward to that bike ride. And getting out anywhere in the car for a couple of hours daily. I need to file this article away some how in my brain. Thanks Phillipa
Posted by phillipa on September 20, 2012, at 12:24:16
In reply to Depression - an illness of the strong?, posted by SLS on September 20, 2012, at 7:31:12
Scott I shared this with all my kids on facebook as they don' get it never did so pulled away from me completed. Thanks I also posted to my Timeline. Phillipa
Posted by SLS on September 20, 2012, at 13:11:56
In reply to Re: Depression - an illness of the strong? » SLS, posted by phillipa on September 20, 2012, at 12:24:16
> Scott I shared this with all my kids on facebook as they don' get it never did so pulled away from me completed. Thanks I also posted to my Timeline. Phillipa
Unfortunately, the article seems to be right about loved-ones not "getting it", even when they are confronted with facts. Sometimes, it is best not to try to explain. You only end up feeling like you have to defend yourself.
:-(
I am extremely fortunate that most of my family has been sympathetic and understanding. Only rarely was I yelled at by my father to "go out and pump gas". Pumping gas is an honorable job. I just wouldn't have been able to handle the cash since I couldn't count change. I still can't - and I used to be a bank teller.
Damned illness. I remember praying to God that it was a good thing that, of my siblings, I was the one chosen. I doubt that the others would have been able to survive it.
- Scott
Posted by ChicagoKat on September 20, 2012, at 16:02:55
In reply to Depression - an illness of the strong?, posted by SLS on September 20, 2012, at 7:31:12
> Nice article:
>
> http://www.familyhealthguide.co.uk/depressive-illness-the-curse-of-the-strong.html
>
>
> - ScottThanks Scott, good article. I sent a copy to all my loved ones who are so frustrated with me in the hopes that maybe it will help them understand.
Thanks again,
Kat
Posted by Raisinb on September 20, 2012, at 18:47:15
In reply to Depression - an illness of the strong?, posted by SLS on September 20, 2012, at 7:31:12
Excellent article. I found the tips on listening to your body's signs as you begin to recover especially helpful.
Posted by jono_in_adelaide on September 20, 2012, at 20:32:36
In reply to Re: Depression - an illness of the strong?, posted by Raisinb on September 20, 2012, at 18:47:15
Sounds a bit like me, I'm quite stoic, with that strong puritan work ethic (never taken more than 2 days off of work in my life, and havent taken a day off sick in 4 years) and never talk about how I'm feeling etc.
Posted by SLS on September 22, 2012, at 15:22:40
In reply to Depression - an illness of the strong?, posted by SLS on September 20, 2012, at 7:31:12
> Nice article:
>
> http://www.familyhealthguide.co.uk/depressive-illness-the-curse-of-the-strong.htmlA good friend of mine didn't like the article. He was particularly critical of the view that stress was the most common cause of depression. I think where the article fails is in its neglect of the question of whether or not there are genetic or epigenetic variables that leave someone more biologically vulnerable to developing a depressive disorder. I believe that there are.
As far as the article is concerned, I thought it represented an interesting observation regarding the personality traits that they described as being more likely to be associated with depressive disorders. The article also gave some hints as to why, in an otherwise healthy person, depression has an important function. It prevents one from expending too much energy and experiencing potentially damaging chronic stress if they were to endlessly engage in futile efforts in thinking or behaving. Evolution got it right sort of.
For those with biological vulnerabilities, this system breaks down. First episodes of depressive illness often occur in association with psychosocial stress. If the illness is left untreated, depressive episodes occur with greater frequency or chronicity. They also become more easily triggered. Through a kindling-like process, it takes progressively less stress to precipitated subsequent episodes until, at some, point, the illness becomes autonomous and no longer requires stress to drive it. It is a form of sensitization.
I think that if you were to take 100 people who are experiencing their first episode of major depressive disorder (MDD), you would find that more than 50 of them will have had a significant psychosocial stress (acute or chronic) associated with it. I can't be sure, of course, but it would make for an interesting study. I haven't encountered any retrospective life charting or prospective investigations to verify this. Perhaps there are twin studies that lend insight on the issue.
Now, what about bipolar disorder (BD)? This was not mentioned in the article. I would not extrapolate exactly the phenomenology of MDD to BD. Perhaps someone would like to comment on this?
- Scott
Posted by Twinleaf on September 22, 2012, at 17:29:40
In reply to Re: Depression - an illness of the strong?, posted by SLS on September 22, 2012, at 15:22:40
I have always had the idea that bipolar illness had a stronger genetic component, and did not require the same degree of interpersonal stress. But I don't know if this is really true. I'd love to know what you think.
Posted by phillipa on September 22, 2012, at 21:05:39
In reply to Re: Depression - an illness of the strong?, posted by Twinleaf on September 22, 2012, at 17:29:40
Same here as it does run in families know from my ex-husbands family. Phillipa
Posted by ChicagoKat on September 22, 2012, at 21:44:57
In reply to Depression - an illness of the strong?, posted by SLS on September 20, 2012, at 7:31:12
> Nice article:
>
> http://www.familyhealthguide.co.uk/depressive-illness-the-curse-of-the-strong.html
>
>
> - ScottI defintitely believe depression is a result of nature and nurture. I believe some of us are born with the predisposition in our brains to be depressed and, if faced with too many stressful events, such as abuse while children, depression is the result. My Grandfather committed suicide and I was emotionally abused and neglected by my mom when I was a kid, not to mention my parents went through a very nasty divorce, so here I am, suffering from major depression, and considering suicide just like my Grandfather, anything to end the pain. I was taking my nighttime meds and I came so close to overdosing tonight. It's the closest I've ever come to committing suicide, but I thought that first I'd see what was going on here on psycho babble
Posted by phillipa on September 22, 2012, at 23:55:24
In reply to Re: Depression - an illness of the strong?, posted by ChicagoKat on September 22, 2012, at 21:44:57
Came to the right place. I'm sorry that your husband is ignoring you. I do empathize with you as same here. Phillipa
Posted by SLS on September 23, 2012, at 1:16:28
In reply to Re: Depression - an illness of the strong?, posted by ChicagoKat on September 22, 2012, at 21:44:57
> > Nice article:
> >
> > http://www.familyhealthguide.co.uk/depressive-illness-the-curse-of-the-strong.html
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> I defintitely believe depression is a result of nature and nurture. I believe some of us are born with the predisposition in our brains to be depressed and, if faced with too many stressful events, such as abuse while children, depression is the result. My Grandfather committed suicide and I was emotionally abused and neglected by my mom when I was a kid, not to mention my parents went through a very nasty divorce, so here I am, suffering from major depression, and considering suicide just like my Grandfather, anything to end the pain. I was taking my nighttime meds and I came so close to overdosing tonight. It's the closest I've ever come to committing suicide, but I thought that first I'd see what was going on here on psycho babble
1. Don't do it tonight.2. You can do it anytime.
3. Tomorrow might be worth living.
4. It is unlikely that you have run out of options to treat your illness. The permutations of combinations of psychiatric drugs is virtually endless. It only takes one to improve your tomorrows and make today worth surviving.
5. I know that while you are in the midst of depression, it seems unlikely that it will ever end.
6. New antidepressant drugs are on the way.
7. Old non-antidepressant drugs have new uses.
8. Two old non-antidepressant drugs that I have used with success are prazosin and minocycline; an antihypertensive and antibiotic respectively.
9. If all of that isn't convincing, then must remain alive for the rest of us whom selfishly want you to stay with us.
10. If even that isn't convincing, then I think you must admit to yourself that there is very little in life that you can be certain of today, and that you can't be certain that you won't be better tomorrow.
11. Return to #1.
- Scott
Posted by jane d on September 23, 2012, at 3:30:25
In reply to Re: Depression - an illness of the strong?, posted by ChicagoKat on September 22, 2012, at 21:44:57
> I defintitely believe depression is a result of nature and nurture. I believe some of us are born with the predisposition in our brains to be depressed and, if faced with too many stressful events, such as abuse while children, depression is the result. My Grandfather committed suicide and I was emotionally abused and neglected by my mom when I was a kid, not to mention my parents went through a very nasty divorce, so here I am, suffering from major depression, and considering suicide just like my Grandfather, anything to end the pain. I was taking my nighttime meds and I came so close to overdosing tonight. It's the closest I've ever come to committing suicide, but I thought that first I'd see what was going on here on psycho babble
>I agree with Scott's points.
You have to force yourself to believe that this will pass. It probably doesn't feel that way right now but perhaps you can try to trust some of us who have felt that way too and survived it. Though you probably don't believe that we really felt the same way either. Tell yourself that your mind is lying to you right now. Because it is.
You have some things going for you that your Grandfather didn't. More knowlege about the nature of depression for one thing. The very concept that an inherited bioligical trait could make you more vulnerable to later experiences. And an internet full of people you can talk to about this.
Posted by jane d on September 23, 2012, at 3:57:08
In reply to Re: Depression - an illness of the strong?, posted by SLS on September 22, 2012, at 15:22:40
> > Nice article:
> >
> > http://www.familyhealthguide.co.uk/depressive-illness-the-curse-of-the-strong.html
>
> A good friend of mine didn't like the article. He was particularly critical of the view that stress was the most common cause of depression.I didn't like it either. I think it may be one of the worst pieces I've read in a long time though I admit I try to stay away from sites like that. I did however admire it's attempt to turn a lack of resiliance into a virtue.
Mostly, I thought it was very insulting in it's attitude. No one else can possibly understand? I got depressed and you didn't because I am strong and you are weak? I think it would be extremely undiplomatic to suggest that to anyone who's sympathy and/or assistance I might want in the future. But I also think it's just plain false. Satisfying to say - sure. But it doesn't fit with my experience to being more vulnerable to repeat episodes. I certainly wasn't getting stronger. I'd fold with the best of them. It doesn't fit with my being less vulnerable on medication either.
I guess if it were presented as a personal experience on someone's blog I'd be more tolerant. It's the pretext that it's a comprehensive article that I find so annoying.
Posted by SLS on September 23, 2012, at 5:50:49
In reply to Re: Depression - an illness of the strong? » SLS, posted by jane d on September 23, 2012, at 3:57:08
> > > Nice article:
> > >
> > > http://www.familyhealthguide.co.uk/depressive-illness-the-curse-of-the-strong.html> > A good friend of mine didn't like the article. He was particularly critical of the view that stress was the most common cause of depression.
> I didn't like it either. I think it may be one of the worst pieces I've read in a long time though I admit I try to stay away from sites like that. I did however admire it's attempt to turn a lack of resiliance into a virtue.
>
> Mostly, I thought it was very insulting in it's attitude. No one else can possibly understand? I got depressed and you didn't because I am strong and you are weak? I think it would be extremely undiplomatic to suggest that to anyone who's sympathy and/or assistance I might want in the future. But I also think it's just plain false. Satisfying to say - sure. But it doesn't fit with my experience to being more vulnerable to repeat episodes. I certainly wasn't getting stronger. I'd fold with the best of them. It doesn't fit with my being less vulnerable on medication either.
>
> I guess if it were presented as a personal experience on someone's blog I'd be more tolerant. It's the pretext that it's a comprehensive article that I find so annoying.It's interesting that the two of us focus on different parts of the article. I think I ignored much its shortcomings and looked more at its portrayals of how stress can drive a physical illness. I also thought it was an interesting hypothesis that people who don't give up on attempting to perform futile tasks contract a physical illness of the nervous system as a result. I'm sure this could have been presented in a way other than to throw around words like strong and weak. It seems like an attempt to put a positive spin on things.
I was put-off by the title of the "Beware of family and loving friends" section. I felt that it was an overgeneralization. However, I think it was accurate in its portrayal of those destructive interactions that can, but do not always, occur. The author might be projecting their own personal experiences and emotional reactions as if they were absolutes. What isn't said is that there are some very enlightened and supportive people that surround the lucky ones. Education helps to guide people in their judgments and behaviors towards mental illness. I was hoping that this article would be educational to those who do not suffer from depressive disorders. I guess it missed the mark for the reasons that you describe.
- Scott
Posted by ChicagoKat on September 23, 2012, at 7:38:43
In reply to Re: Depression - an illness of the strong? » ChicagoKat, posted by phillipa on September 22, 2012, at 23:55:24
> Came to the right place. I'm sorry that your husband is ignoring you. I do empathize with you as same here. Phillipa
Thanks Phillipa, it helps somehow to know I'm not alone in that. Hope you are well.
Kat
Posted by ChicagoKat on September 23, 2012, at 7:42:19
In reply to Re: Depression - an illness of the strong? » ChicagoKat, posted by SLS on September 23, 2012, at 1:16:28
> > > Nice article:
> > >
> > > http://www.familyhealthguide.co.uk/depressive-illness-the-curse-of-the-strong.html
> > >
> > >
> > > - Scott
> >
> > I defintitely believe depression is a result of nature and nurture. I believe some of us are born with the predisposition in our brains to be depressed and, if faced with too many stressful events, such as abuse while children, depression is the result. My Grandfather committed suicide and I was emotionally abused and neglected by my mom when I was a kid, not to mention my parents went through a very nasty divorce, so here I am, suffering from major depression, and considering suicide just like my Grandfather, anything to end the pain. I was taking my nighttime meds and I came so close to overdosing tonight. It's the closest I've ever come to committing suicide, but I thought that first I'd see what was going on here on psycho babble
>
>
> 1. Don't do it tonight.
>
> 2. You can do it anytime.
>
> 3. Tomorrow might be worth living.
>
> 4. It is unlikely that you have run out of options to treat your illness. The permutations of combinations of psychiatric drugs is virtually endless. It only takes one to improve your tomorrows and make today worth surviving.
>
> 5. I know that while you are in the midst of depression, it seems unlikely that it will ever end.
>
> 6. New antidepressant drugs are on the way.
>
> 7. Old non-antidepressant drugs have new uses.
>
> 8. Two old non-antidepressant drugs that I have used with success are prazosin and minocycline; an antihypertensive and antibiotic respectively.
>
> 9. If all of that isn't convincing, then must remain alive for the rest of us whom selfishly want you to stay with us.
>
> 10. If even that isn't convincing, then I think you must admit to yourself that there is very little in life that you can be certain of today, and that you can't be certain that you won't be better tomorrow.
>
> 11. Return to #1.
>
>
> - ScottThanks Scott, your reasons really struck at my heart and made me feel like I can keep plodding on. I just get so tired of it sometimes, you know? But your list of reasons I will treasure and go back to if ever I feel that bad again. Thanks again,, you are all so wonderful, that's why I came on here before I did it,and it really helped.
all my best,
Kat
Posted by ChicagoKat on September 23, 2012, at 7:45:50
In reply to Re: Depression - an illness of the strong? » ChicagoKat, posted by jane d on September 23, 2012, at 3:30:25
> > I defintitely believe depression is a result of nature and nurture. I believe some of us are born with the predisposition in our brains to be depressed and, if faced with too many stressful events, such as abuse while children, depression is the result. My Grandfather committed suicide and I was emotionally abused and neglected by my mom when I was a kid, not to mention my parents went through a very nasty divorce, so here I am, suffering from major depression, and considering suicide just like my Grandfather, anything to end the pain. I was taking my nighttime meds and I came so close to overdosing tonight. It's the closest I've ever come to committing suicide, but I thought that first I'd see what was going on here on psycho babble
> >
>
> I agree with Scott's points.
>
> You have to force yourself to believe that this will pass. It probably doesn't feel that way right now but perhaps you can try to trust some of us who have felt that way too and survived it. Though you probably don't believe that we really felt the same way either. Tell yourself that your mind is lying to you right now. Because it is.
>
> You have some things going for you that your Grandfather didn't. More knowlege about the nature of depression for one thing. The very concept that an inherited bioligical trait could make you more vulnerable to later experiences. And an internet full of people you can talk to about this.
>
>
ThanksJame, it's nice to know there's an internet of people who are here and able to help me, when my loved ones have gotten sick of hearing it from me. They won't listen to me anymore, even in a time of true crisis. They want to pretend my illness doesn't exist. It makes me feel so lonely. But knowing you are all here for me helps more than you know. Thanks again.
Kat
Posted by ChicagoKat on September 27, 2012, at 19:54:16
In reply to Re: Depression - an illness of the strong?, posted by SLS on September 22, 2012, at 15:22:40
> > Nice article:
> >
> > http://www.familyhealthguide.co.uk/depressive-illness-the-curse-of-the-strong.html
>
> A good friend of mine didn't like the article. He was particularly critical of the view that stress was the most common cause of depression. I think where the article fails is in its neglect of the question of whether or not there are genetic or epigenetic variables that leave someone more biologically vulnerable to developing a depressive disorder. I believe that there are.
>
> As far as the article is concerned, I thought it represented an interesting observation regarding the personality traits that they described as being more likely to be associated with depressive disorders. The article also gave some hints as to why, in an otherwise healthy person, depression has an important function. It prevents one from expending too much energy and experiencing potentially damaging chronic stress if they were to endlessly engage in futile efforts in thinking or behaving. Evolution got it right sort of.
>
> For those with biological vulnerabilities, this system breaks down. First episodes of depressive illness often occur in association with psychosocial stress. If the illness is left untreated, depressive episodes occur with greater frequency or chronicity. They also become more easily triggered. Through a kindling-like process, it takes progressively less stress to precipitated subsequent episodes until, at some, point, the illness becomes autonomous and no longer requires stress to drive it. It is a form of sensitization.
>
> I think that if you were to take 100 people who are experiencing their first episode of major depressive disorder (MDD), you would find that more than 50 of them will have had a significant psychosocial stress (acute or chronic) associated with it. I can't be sure, of course, but it would make for an interesting study. I haven't encountered any retrospective life charting or prospective investigations to verify this. Perhaps there are twin studies that lend insight on the issue.
>
> Now, what about bipolar disorder (BD)? This was not mentioned in the article. I would not extrapolate exactly the phenomenology of MDD to BD. Perhaps someone would like to comment on this?
>
>
> - Scott
>
Hi Scott,
I hope you are feeling OK. I was looking back over old posts, and I read your mention of epigenetic variables as being possible precursors/predisposers to depression. I have been doing some reading about this and find it very interesting. I could tell that you are very intelligent and know a lot, but it was pleasantly surprising to find someone on this forum who is aware of epigenetic research. Take care of yourslf, and I hope to talk to you soon!
Kat
Posted by SLS on September 27, 2012, at 20:05:02
In reply to Re: Depression - an illness of the strong? » SLS, posted by ChicagoKat on September 27, 2012, at 19:54:16
> Take care of yourslf, and I hope to talk to you soon!
:-)
- Scott
Posted by schleprock on September 29, 2012, at 21:36:13
In reply to Re: Depression - an illness of the strong?, posted by ChicagoKat on September 22, 2012, at 21:44:57
> > Nice article:
> >
> > http://www.familyhealthguide.co.uk/depressive-illness-the-curse-of-the-strong.html
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> I defintitely believe depression is a result of nature and nurture. I believe some of us are born with the predisposition in our brains to be depressed and, if faced with too many stressful events, such as abuse while children, depression is the result. My Grandfather committed suicide and I was emotionally abused and neglected by my mom when I was a kid, not to mention my parents went through a very nasty divorce, so here I am, suffering from major depression, and considering suicide just like my Grandfather, anything to end the pain. I was taking my nighttime meds and I came so close to overdosing tonight. It's the closest I've ever come to committing suicide, but I thought that first I'd see what was going on here on psycho babble
>
>Just remember ChicagoKat, at least you didn't end up like Jan:
This is the end of the thread.
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