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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 58. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Phillipa on July 9, 2012, at 23:13:00
No wonder all three of mine are normal no spanking ever. Phillipa
From Medscape Medical News > Psychiatry
Spanking, Slapping Kids Linked to Subsequent Mental Illness
Caroline Cassels
Authors and Disclosures
July 6, 2012 Using physical punishment, including spanking and smacking, to discipline children is linked to a significantly increased risk for mental illness in later life, new research shows.
Results from a national United States epidemiologic survey reveal that harsh physical punishment, including pushing, grabbing, shoving, slapping, or hitting, is linked to mental health disorders even in the absence of more severe child maltreatment, such as physical, sexual, and emotional abuse as well as neglect or exposure to intimate partner violence.
The current findings, the investigators write, "indicate that harsh physical punishment in the absence of child maltreatment is associated with increased odds of having several lifetime Axis I and Axis II disorders." These include mood disorders, anxiety disorders, alcohol and drug dependence as well as several personality disorders.
With principal investigator Jitender Sareen, MD, FRCPC, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada, the study was published online July 2 in Pediatrics.
Still Common
The American Academy of Pediatrics strongly opposes striking a child for any reason, and the Canadian Paediatric Society recommends that physicians strongly discourage the use of physical punishment.
The right of a parent or caregiver to use physical punishment has been banned in 32 countries. However, it is still permitted in both Canada and the United States.
Despite these recommendations, the authors note that physical punishment is common.
The investigators point out that data from a nationally representative sample of adults in the United States revealed that almost one half (49%) reported a history of physical punishment in childhood. Further, a recent study of mothers in the Carolinas in the United States revealed that 46% reported slapping or spanking their children during the past year.
Although previous research has linked physical punishment, including spanking and smacking, with aggression, delinquency, and internalizing conditions in childhood and a range of Axis I mental disorders, the authors note that the current study is unique.
"To our knowledge, there have been no examinations of the link between physical punishment and a broad range of mental health disorders in a nationally representative sample controlling for several types of maltreatment.
"Previous studies have not considered the proportion of mental disorders in the general population that may be attributable to physical punishment alone without experiencing more severe forms of child maltreatment," they write.
For the current study, the investigators used data on 34,653 US adults who were participants in the National Epidemiologic survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions between 2004 and 2005.
The researchers found that the prevalence of harsh physical punishment alone, without more severe child maltreatment, was 5.9%. Girls were less likely than boys to experience physical punishment (59.4% vs 40.6%).
Compared with whites, black participants were more likely to experience harsh physical punishment. Asians, native Hawaiians, and other Pacific Islanders were the least likely to experience physical punishment.
Reducing Mental Illness
After adjusting for sociodemographic variables, physical punishment was associated with an increased likelihood of Axis I disorders, including major depression, dysthymia, mania, mood disorders, phobias, anxiety disorders, and drug and alcohol abuse or dependence (adjusted odds ratio [aOR], 1.36 - 2.46).
Physical punishment was also associated with increased odds of Axis II disorders, including several individual personality disorders (aOR, 1.63 - 2.46) and cluster A and B disorder diagnosis (aOR, 1.82 - 1.94).
Overall, the researcher found that from 2% to 7% of mental disorders were attributable to physical punishment.
They note that pediatricians and other healthcare providers who work with children and parents should be aware of the link between physical punishment and mental disorders.
"These findings inform the ongoing debate around the use of physical punishment and provide evidence that harsh physical punishment independent of child maltreatment is related to mental disorders," they write.
From a public health perspective, study authors conclude that reducing physical punishment may help decrease the prevalence of mental disorders in the general population.
Lastly, they note that the findings "are important in considering policy and programmatic approaches to protect children from inappropriate and potentially harmful discipline."
Pediatrics. Published online July 2, 2012.
Posted by Maria3667 on July 10, 2012, at 2:57:34
In reply to Spanking Slapping Kids Linked To Mental Disorders, posted by Phillipa on July 9, 2012, at 23:13:00
That explains all !
I'll tell my dad he owes me a crate of hooch...
Posted by Emily Elizabeth on July 10, 2012, at 5:46:56
In reply to Spanking Slapping Kids Linked To Mental Disorders, posted by Phillipa on July 9, 2012, at 23:13:00
I haven't seen the actual scientific study, so maybe this was addressed, but did they consider psychiatric disorders in the parents? I suspect a parent having mental health issues makes them more prone to losing their temper and not parenting in a calm cool and collected sort of way. Further, psychiatric disorders in the parents can influence development of psychiatric disorders in kids through genetics (assuming you are raised by bio parents). Not to mention how psychiatric disorders influence parenting in other ways.
If anyone has access to the real article, I'd be interested to know if they statistically controlled for this issue.
A slight tangent...I was reading on yahoo that a congressman (or some elected official) is citing "research" that there is a correlation between towns with kindergarten programs and crime. He is concluding that having kindergarten leads to crime! OMG. Basic research methods anyone?!
EE
Posted by SLS on July 10, 2012, at 8:17:03
In reply to Re: Spanking Slapping Kids Linked To Mental Disorders » Phillipa, posted by Maria3667 on July 10, 2012, at 2:57:34
> That explains all !
It might explain a great deal. It might be a sort of "Perfect Storm" of genetics, epigenetics, and environment that leads to some cases of depression and anxiety disorders. I guess severe, inescapable corporal punishment could lead to the development of learned helplessness and avoidance anxiety reactions. I don't know for sure, but Google did come up with a few hits when I entered these terms.
> I'll tell my dad he owes me a crate of hooch...
It is not a matter of blame. It is a matter of understanding. As I see it, to blame is a personal decision.
- Scott
Posted by zazenducke on July 10, 2012, at 9:18:02
In reply to Re: Spanking Slapping Kids Linked To Mental Disorders, posted by Emily Elizabeth on July 10, 2012, at 5:46:56
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2012/06/27/peds.2011-2947.full.pdf+html
> I haven't seen the actual scientific study, so maybe this was addressed, but did they consider psychiatric disorders in the parents? I suspect a parent having mental health issues makes them more prone to losing their temper and not parenting in a calm cool and collected sort of way. Further, psychiatric disorders in the parents can influence development of psychiatric disorders in kids through genetics (assuming you are raised by bio parents). Not to mention how psychiatric disorders influence parenting in other ways.
>
> If anyone has access to the real article, I'd be interested to know if they statistically controlled for this issue.
>
Posted by gadchik on July 10, 2012, at 10:17:42
In reply to Re: Spanking Slapping Kids Linked To Mental Disorders » Emily Elizabeth, posted by zazenducke on July 10, 2012, at 9:18:02
I never felt comfortable with the idea of hitting someone I love and respect.I think it causes humiliation to the child.I believe a child feels bad enough when they know they have thoroughly disappointed you.
Posted by emily elizabeth on July 10, 2012, at 10:42:02
In reply to Re: Spanking Slapping Kids Linked To Mental Disorders » Emily Elizabeth, posted by zazenducke on July 10, 2012, at 9:18:02
Thanks for the link, Ducky.
I was interested to learn that the article actually did NOT include spanking. It looked only at people who answered at least "sometimes" to the question, "As a child how often were you ever pushed, grabbed, shoved or slapped or hit by your parents or any adult living in your house?" They termed this "harsh physical punishment." They were interested in "acts of physical force beyond slapping, which some may consider more severe than 'customary' physical punishment (ie, spanking.)"
I found that interesting because this is NOT how the findings of this article are often reported in the media and understood by the general public. This is why I like to read the original article. (Darn it, this PhD is good for something!!)
Also, they did in fact do some statistical control of issues like parental substance abuse and mental illness.
Best,
EE
Posted by emily elizabeth on July 10, 2012, at 10:45:25
In reply to Re: Spanking Slapping Kids Linked To Mental Disorders, posted by emily elizabeth on July 10, 2012, at 10:42:02
I should add that I absolutely do NOT advocate even spanking for punishment (for the reasons described by others above).
Just wanted to make that clear so my points were not misinterpreted!
EE
Posted by linkadge on July 10, 2012, at 13:41:14
In reply to Re: Spanking Slapping Kids Linked To Mental Disorders, posted by emily elizabeth on July 10, 2012, at 10:45:25
I agree with the above point.
I would assume that there are higher rates of parental mental illness among the pool of those that hit their children.
Parents with depression, bipolar, ADHD etc. are probably more likely to hit their children *due to poor impulse control*. I would argue that they are more passing on their genetics, than harming the child by a justified smack or two.
By the way, I have *zero problem* with hitting your children (non injurous obviously) when they diserve it. I don't think its hitting the child that causes the problem - its when parents hit their children without justification. (Again...something that the study did not disect)
I remember being smacked as a kid. Ususally my first thought was - wow, I really diserved that.
Working in the public education system, I deal with the consequences of **grosly inneffective** disciplinary standards, on a daily basis. Take a stroll through your local school! The number of *out of control* classrooms are on the rise. Its usually due to parents that coerce their children with toys, candies and trinkets. Parents feel that they are 'harming' their child by denying them anything, or allowing anything bad to happen to them. Children come to school wondering 'why should I behave?'. 'I can't fail or get kicked out if I don't - so...what are you going to give me to behave'.
My neighbour teaches in China. He tells me that there are few behavior problems. If there is a problem, he just has to make a phone call home. We have a generation of youth...who all feel entitled to be actors....who are great at neotiating their 'rights' and who only do things that make them feel good. You think the admonishment of a good slap is actually working......heh!
Today's children:
"The other day, I touched a hot burner and got singed. Not permanently burned, but it hurt a little. I don't think thats fair - and I feel I will be perminantly dammaged psychologically from the incident. Tomorrow, I'm going to grab the hot burner again and try reasoning with it."
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on July 10, 2012, at 20:25:03
In reply to Re: A rant....., posted by linkadge on July 10, 2012, at 13:41:14
Instead of spanking as a means of punishment I do not believe in it. I do believe in setting boundaries from a young age. Time out, taking away items the child uses as a favorite toy for a specified length of time. I remember once years ago my Daughter decided to do something she'd never done before have a temper tantrum in a store. I looked at her walked away and before I knew it she was running after me. She never did it again. She learned that this type of behavior does not result in a good outcome. I think so many parents today are just giving in to keep the child quiet. And as for the schools if parents set boundaries and didn't give in one time and the next time not give in. Consistency in behavioral consequences would result in children that know the word NO. Phillipa
Posted by linkadge on July 10, 2012, at 21:51:11
In reply to Re Instead...., posted by Phillipa on July 10, 2012, at 20:25:03
>Consistency in behavioral consequences would >result in children that know the word NO.
If that works then fine.....
I remember being a pest. My mother would say 'NO' and I'd keep up. She'd take me out of the store and I'd whine and complain the whole way home. She gave me a smack....I shut up.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 10, 2012, at 21:57:26
In reply to Re Instead...., posted by Phillipa on July 10, 2012, at 20:25:03
I think parents waste way too much time trying to reason with little brats. I was a brat and my mother knew it. She knew I would just test her and test her. I would force her into long convoluted punishments that just wasted her time.
Its the same with teaching...You keep them in at recess, you have to give up your lunch to look after them. They know that, and know that they're punishing you just as much as you're punishing them. I don't like to waste my time on kids that 'think' to much about how to manipulate you.
A good smack gets it over with. Case closed.....now go outside and play.Linkadge
Posted by mbrational on July 11, 2012, at 3:12:31
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by linkadge on July 10, 2012, at 21:57:26
It is so typical for children who were abused physically (and yes smacking is physical abuse and emotional abuse too because it is so humilating)) to justify their parents behavior as they grow up. And as they think it didn`t hurt them they think they have the right to do the same to their own children and so the vicious circle continues and another generation gets involved. I think its particularly disgusting when those people become teachers.
Markus
Posted by SLS on July 11, 2012, at 7:05:02
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by mbrational on July 11, 2012, at 3:12:31
> It is so typical for children who were abused physically (and yes smacking is physical abuse and emotional abuse too because it is so humilating)) to justify their parents behavior as they grow up. And as they think it didn`t hurt them they think they have the right to do the same to their own children and so the vicious circle continues and another generation gets involved. I think its particularly disgusting when those people become teachers.
>
> Markus
I think the induction of a major mental illness is a multifactorial phenomenon for which childhood physical abuse, corporal punishment, and neglect can be contributing, although not sufficient, variables. For some people, they are not contributors at all. The article being referred to seems to indicate that there are phenomenological differences between physical abuse and physical punishment.
- Scott
Posted by mbrational on July 11, 2012, at 7:51:28
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by SLS on July 11, 2012, at 7:05:02
I agree. But you can not change your genes, the way children are treated is changeable though. And of course there are people with the right genetical make up, that can be treated extremely harsh as children but who will never develop a psychiatric disease. But even in that cases the education might have bad consequences, resulting in a reduced ability to have emotional fullfilling relationships as adults for example.
Posted by mbrational on July 11, 2012, at 16:03:33
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by mbrational on July 11, 2012, at 7:51:28
Furthermore smacking children is a great way to teach them that interpersonal problems can be solved with physical violence.
Markus
Posted by gadchik on July 11, 2012, at 16:45:55
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by mbrational on July 11, 2012, at 16:03:33
I remember the shock of being hit by someone you love,when you are a child.It didnt make me want to be "good".It made me see the world in a bad way.
Posted by linkadge on July 11, 2012, at 21:28:16
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by mbrational on July 11, 2012, at 3:12:31
>It is so typical for children who were abused >physically (and yes smacking is physical abuse >and emotional abuse too because it is so >humilating))
It doesn't create a vicious cycle unless its excessive or unjustified. In WWII did we say....no we can't hurt anybody.....it will just create a vicious cycle! I was never hit without justification. There was never a time where I was hit where I would say....what was that for? I knew exactly what it was for and quite prefered my punshments quick. Just like grabbing a burner and getting a nib of pain. Maybe we should keep our children in a bubble to prevent them from feeling any pain at all. And while you're at it, disinfect every surface with Lysol.
Its when parents hit their children out of anger, rather than good reason, that the child does not understand this. Thats when they become frustrated and want to take their anger out on somebody else.
When I walked away from a spanking, I was not angry. Infact I was happer that we got it over with and I wasn't grounded for a month.
Answer me this.....
What hardens a criminal more: a few whacks with a cane or time behind bars? Get it over with.
Its all about how you want the bandaid taken off.
>they have the right to do the same to their own >childrenThey do.......if the child diserves it.
>particularly disgusting when those people become >teachers.
Heh. Maybe you should give it a try.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 11, 2012, at 21:47:51
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by SLS on July 11, 2012, at 7:05:02
My parents loved me. They cared for me. They always had food on the table and fresh sheets on the bed. They took me to church and taught me good morals. They also occasionally hauled me over their knee and spanked me in public when I diserved it. Because it worked. This was not abuse.
The real abuse these days is letting kids run wild. Fathers out of the the picture....mothers who get home at 8:00pm with McDonalds...growing up infront of a computer screen...bribing kids with sugar and video games...keeping kids off the swing for fear of a nick on the knee...
The "modern parent" has produced children with elevated rates of diabetes, obesity, mental health problems, declining academic standards...you name it.
Dr. Spock's kid hung himself. Spock was supposed to be the 'model parent'.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 11, 2012, at 21:49:21
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by mbrational on July 11, 2012, at 7:51:28
The big problem these days is not what the parent does....but what the parent doesn't do.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 11, 2012, at 22:12:59
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by mbrational on July 11, 2012, at 16:03:33
>Furthermore smacking children is a great way to >teach them that interpersonal problems can be >solved with physical violence.
A spanking is not 'voilence'.
Your child is not not your equal. They are not your 'buddy' nor your 'pal'. You are the parent and they are the child. Too many parents think that by being their child's "friend", the child will love them enough to never do anything wrong.
I'm all for having a good 'relationship' with your children, but I have witnessed parents who try and 'reason' with their two year old who is having an hour long temper tantrum over wanting a chocolate bar. Not working!!! You're arguing with the lower brainstem of a 2 year old!!! Their cerebral cortex is *not* on!!
Posted by linkadge on July 11, 2012, at 22:21:38
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by gadchik on July 11, 2012, at 16:45:55
>I remember the shock of being hit by someone you >love,when you are a child.It didnt make me want >to be "good".It made me see the world in a bad >way.
Why would you be shocked if you deserved it?
If you 'loved them' why would you do something to diserve being spanked?
(unless you are taking about something more severe here...which I am BTW not condoning)
Did you really 'love' you parents when:
-they grounded you for a month?
Did you really 'love' you parents when:
-they said you could no longer date Charly?
Did you really 'love' you parents when:
-they removed the phone from your room?
Did you really 'love' you parents when:
-they cut off your allowance for two weeks
Did you really 'love' you parents when:
-They took away your Barby
Did you really 'love' you parents when:
-They forbid you from watching your favorite show?
Did you really 'love' you parents when:
-They forced you to do your homework.
The fact is that all kids hate their parents from time to time.My question for you was
a) what did you do that resulted in the hit?
b) was the hit, out of anger, or proportion?
Posted by mbrational on July 12, 2012, at 1:57:13
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by linkadge on July 11, 2012, at 21:28:16
When a person gets hit, it usually results in feeling anger, sadness, humiliation etc.. But many children don`t even allow themselves to feel those feelings because they have to preserve their image of a "good parent". (A child is not able to care for itself, its life depends on his parent therefore his prognosis is mighty bleak when it doesn`t have a "good parent"). So the child begins to twist the reality:
I was a pest,
I was a brat,
I deserved it,
It was a totally justified smacked,
I prefer my punishment quick."
Twenty years later the child defends his parents on a messageboard and passionately argues in favor of spanking, because it feels somewhat uneasy when the topic about physical punisment and mental illness comes up.
On the other hand there are some children that are courageous enough to feel their justified feelings of anger sadness and dissapointment when they get hit by their parents. Those are the adults that decide: "I am not going to do those things I was hurt by to any other person especially not to my own children.
Similarly some persons who are sexually abused as children become abusers themselves when they grow up, while others devote their lifes to fight against sexual abuse of children.Markus
Posted by gadchik on July 12, 2012, at 6:24:48
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by linkadge on July 11, 2012, at 22:21:38
I think we have to agree to disagree.
Posted by gadchik on July 12, 2012, at 6:25:51
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by mbrational on July 12, 2012, at 1:57:13
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