Shown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by uncouth on May 13, 2012, at 12:12:48
hey guys,
so i'm at my wits end with this insomnia that's been plaguing me the last 10 months. it's causing severe and significant impairment in my life, what i can do in the evenings, my mood and cognition. we've tried meds from every class. problem is now both falling asleep, and early morning awakening. i'm considering washing out of all substances including antidepressants and supplements but am afraid, because simply nothing else has worked. have not been able to isolate.benzos failed, z-drugs failed (made me feel worse in the morning), trimipramine didn't work, seroquel not keeping me asleep and higher dosages impair me in the daytime, traz fail, etc. tiagabine, fail, gabapentin, etc. don't know why this is happening to me, but i may have triggered something permanent via a trial of LDN 9 months ago, or its just stress or medication related. i'm getting sleep study next month, but i hear those only really tell you if you have apnea.
my doc just finally prescribed me chloral hydrate two nights ago because nothing else was working. my pattern has been i can take something for sleep and it will make me very sleepy (anything) but I cannot seem to initiate sleep for hours, i wait for hours, and the only thing that initiates sleep is 5mg of saphris, which i have been trying to stop for months. i thought chloral hydrate would knock me out. made me very sleepy, but i was up for 3 hours after i took 1500mg!!! i really want to stop the saphris and want to find something that will keep me asleep, chloral hydrate didn't even keep me asleep as i woke up once again at 4:30am, which has been my pattern for 10 months.
i think i might have done this to myself with some supplement or maybe LDN caused epigenetic changes, but i can't seem to reverse it. it could be stress related too, who knows, but whatever ti is, it is non responsive to treatment.
Posted by bleauberry on May 13, 2012, at 17:22:37
In reply to Chloral hydrate failing for sleep...whats next, posted by uncouth on May 13, 2012, at 12:12:48
Wow this is a really tough one. Sorry you have to go through all that! Hard to tell what's going on. Maybe a current or former med did some kind of change like you said, because I'm pretty sure many of them have the potential to do that. The post ssri syndrome that multiple people experience is an example. Or maybe a street addict who will never be able to function as he/she formally did without daily buprenorphine prescription. Ya know, all kinds of stuff happens.
Anyway, one thing I noticed about the battle thus far is that it has been focused on the symptoms. Totally understand that. Just one night of bad sleep throws me out of whack. Anyway, at this point I think it might be safe to assume that whatever is happening is either so strong that a benzo can't knock it down, or else it is primarily some other sort of circuit that our gaba and antihistamine meds don't get a direct hit. In other words, the cause of the insomnia is outside of the circuits we normally look at, it's something else. That's how I see it anyway.
So there could be a zillion something else's, right? So where do we look? In this case, I'm going on instinct and intuition based on too many years, I would start by assuming it is a problem in the pituitary gland or the adrenal gland or both and that identifying the exact problem through labwork might be helpful and could be unhelpful. Basics should probably be ruled out which some lab tests can do. But even without any testing, malfunction in those gland circuits can be modulated, changed. Maca root is specific for the pituitary. Eleuthero is specific for, well, the whole body but special emphasis on adrenals. Same goes for rhodiola except it has more antidepressant punch.
It would take a whole chapter to describe the multitudes of things these herbs do, how they are able to calm when there is chaos, and how to excite when there is sluggishness, and how they ultimately impact sleep as one of their primary targets. In the early going with any of them, they can actually worsen existing sleep, so that's not cool. But, glimmer of ho[e, when I tried them I was in a state similar to yours, but my insomnia wasn't as bad as yours. Pretty bad daytime anxiety too. So when my integrative doc told me to take these adrenal herbs I was hesitant because they have a reputation as being stimulants. I didn't yet understand....they balance stuff. So anyway, within 2 nights I was sleeping like a log on these supposedly stimulating herbs. Funny. I still take rhodiola because it was my favorite, but it is the one that sort of helped sleep in a way but also hurt it in a way. Eleuthero or I forgot to mention a really good one in your case Ashwaganda, either of those can balance things out with sleep being the ultimate winner.
They take time. Sometimes stimulating early on. By time I'm talking several days to weeks to see any benefit, but probably mostly just acclimating to it in that time framed. The real benefits take like maybe 2 months to 6 months. The herbs work in harmony with the body to bring about change gradually, they are not heavy duty blasts like meds. But they have the potential to ultimately fix things better than meds. Kind of like the turtle and hare thing.
I mention this stuff that might appear weird to someone because all of it ties in directly with the neurotransmitters, enzymes, brain, sleep circuits, awake circuits, fight and flight circuits, all that stuff. If there's a battle between excess adrenaline and excess benzo, I think the adrenaline is going to win...and thus lousy sleep. Obviously not quite that simple, but you know what I mean?
And actually, I'm thinking epinephrine specifically. Again, based on my own experience. My lab tests showed normally expected neurotransmitter metabolites in my urine...serotonin normal, norepinephrine lowish, gaba very high, epinephrine very high, dopamine normal. It appeared that for whatever reason my gaba circuits were trying as hard they could to calm down an excess epinephrine circuit and it wasn't working the epinephrine was too strong. What causes stuff like this? Don't know. Stress? Heavy metals or other toxins clogging receptor sites at glands? Damage to a gland from a pathogenic organism? Was mine due to Lyme, or was it the heavy metals, or was it neither? Don't know. But I do know that those herbs have the potential to bring balance back to whatever chaos is going on regardless of its root cause which we may never know.
We attempt to fix our symptoms basically by experimentation with meds, try one, try another. Every choice is an educated guess, but still a guess. Healing with herbs is the same game, so nothing different there. It's just that with over 2000 years of experience using them as medicines, we have a pretty good idea of what they can do for specific ailments and specific symptoms even if we don't know all the hows and whys.
In terms of meds, I have no ideas. You've already been there done that. SLS knows of some potent benzos that are used in combination I believe. Heavy hitters. But then, I think maybe we already have clues that might not be the right road? Dunno.
So without any ideas on meds, my next move is to say ok then let's find and address the actual problem so we can sleep normally and never even have the need for sleep meds at all. And that, to me, points directly at adrenal and pituitary issues. In other words, overall I think we are dealing with hormone issues here, not neurotransmitter issues, and that no matter how hard we force the neurotransmitters, it won't be enough because the opposing force from the astray hormone is stronger.
Or I could just be crazy. Seriously, they go fine with meds, I would in your shoes take a good look at Ashwaganda and Eleuthero. And experiment with whatever you already haven't. Melatonin? Lemon balm? Passion flower/ Skullcap? 5htp? Magnesium Glycinate? Glyciine? Combos of any 3 or 4 of the above?
It's hard. But I truly believe there is plenty of work to do here and we are by no means running out of options. If we're looking at just things that will sedate a human body, well yeah we might be running out of options. But in terms of providing an opposing force to whatever is pushing too hard inside of us, we got some good potent options to get things grounded again.
Posted by Phillipa on May 13, 2012, at 20:18:49
In reply to Chloral hydrate failing for sleep...whats next, posted by uncouth on May 13, 2012, at 12:12:48
Uncouth I thought I was the only one that at one time needed and used chloral hydrate for sleep. At the time the doc took away beer my always sleep med with .25mg of xanax. He substituted the liquic choral hydrate not sure of mg's but was 5 liquid mililiters with the .25mg of xanax. I slept like a baby for a full year nightly woke feeling wonderful and refreshed. Also was taking different low dose ad's first was the high dose of luvox 250mg and felt normal. Till he decided to change the ad. Not my choice long story none of others worked. When about 6 years had passed was taking 15 mililiters of chloral hydrate. I gradually weaned off it and haven't taken it in years. It worked so well for me and my anxiety was so severe at the time can't imagine it not working. I've heard also that sleep studies can uncover more than just sleep aphnea. Phillipa
Posted by uncouth on May 13, 2012, at 20:24:35
In reply to Re: Chloral hydrate failing for sleep...whats next » uncouth, posted by Phillipa on May 13, 2012, at 20:18:49
thanks blueberry and phillips for your responses, especially bleu for your lengthy response. i am taking eleuthero ashwagandah and rhodiola in combination and alone at various point sin recent past as i did think that this was adrenal for a long time, but a 24 hour cortiosol test showed that my cortisol was actually within range, but just a bit elevated out of range at night only.
i have tried everything, going OFF of all the supplements too, thinking that maybe i'm just taking too much, but based on your previous posts months ago when i was asking about adrenal fatigue, I have stuck to the adaptagen regime and i actually think i have seen improvement over the past 6 months...but it did take that long...and i have taken eleuthero that whole time. i only started rhodiola again.
can you talk to me more about eleuthero rhodiola ashwaganda which you prefer etc.? i'm currently taking all three is that overkill? the health food store guy says take ashwagandha in the daytime actually and it will help sleep at night. and i take the sibergin brand of eleuthero...when i first started taking it (first dose) it had an immediate and proofed anti-stress relaxation response, now i think i've acclimated to it but i'm taking it to theoretically rebuild adrenals.
rhodiola i'm nto so sure about, i kinda maybe think it might have made things worse? that's just my sense...might be too stimulating. could it have caused adrenal poop out? i took it for a long time with no breaks at one point.
anyway if you could help me out with these three herbs i'd appreciate it...they seem to be legit just want to know which i should choose if sleep is primary issue.
Posted by sigismund on May 14, 2012, at 3:26:48
In reply to Chloral hydrate failing for sleep...whats next, posted by uncouth on May 13, 2012, at 12:12:48
>i think i might have done this to myself with some supplement
One of the ones you are currently taking perhaps?
The list of those which keep me awake is long.
And don't ignore trimpramine. It is not a hypnotic but does improve the quality of sleep.
If you feel like it, post a list of the supplements you take and I will tell you, of the ones with which I am familiar, which ones cause insomnia in me.
So may whiches, so many errors in syntax.
Posted by SLS on May 14, 2012, at 6:45:26
In reply to Chloral hydrate failing for sleep...whats next, posted by uncouth on May 13, 2012, at 12:12:48
> hey guys,
Hi.
When I was in dire straits for sleep, I was once prescribed a combination of Halcion and Ativan. It worked better than anything else I have tried. Halcion is probably the best initiator of sleep there is. Ativan or Restoril can help you maintain sleep until morning.
I believe Linkadge has had success using a combination of melatonin, Ativan, and cyproheptadine. It sounds like a pretty nifty treatment.
In my experience, chloral hydrate did not help much for treating insomnia induced by Nardil. It left me with a burning feeling in my stomach.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on May 14, 2012, at 19:21:08
In reply to Re: Chloral hydrate failing for sleep...whats next, posted by SLS on May 14, 2012, at 6:45:26
When you took chloral hyrate was in then in the little green pill form? I had to take the liquid at the time could taste and boy it burned going down but knocked me out right away. Phillipa
Posted by SLS on May 14, 2012, at 19:33:06
In reply to Re: Chloral hydrate failing for sleep...whats next » SLS, posted by Phillipa on May 14, 2012, at 19:21:08
> When you took chloral hyrate was in then in the little green pill form?
Yes.
> I had to take the liquid at the time could taste and boy it burned going
Yuck.
> down but knocked me out right away. Phillipa
I found it too weak to do the job when I was taking an MAOI. I imagine this differs from person to person.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on May 14, 2012, at 21:01:45
In reply to Re: Chloral hydrate failing for sleep...whats next » Phillipa, posted by SLS on May 14, 2012, at 19:33:06
Thing is the doc was substituting it for the 4-6 beers had nightly. So would have thought it wouldn't work? No withdrawal from alchohol. I'd looked it up and saw it's kind of like alchohol. I bet the liquid was absorbed faster. No digesting the gel capsule. Phillipa
Posted by Raisinb on May 15, 2012, at 20:28:45
In reply to Chloral hydrate failing for sleep...whats next, posted by uncouth on May 13, 2012, at 12:12:48
What a horrible predicament to be in. First, have you tried Remeron? Second, do you feel your insomnia is biological, or complicated by anxiety or stress about life issues--or, of course, about not being able to fall asleep?
I've had insomnia my whole life, and luckily Xanax is working for me now, but I do remember one particularly bad bout in my mid 20s, when the only thing that worked was not sleeping in my bed. It had become so associated with freaking out about not sleeping that I just had to sit on the couch in the living room, which helped me not think about it, and then I'd magically drop off.
Posted by SLS on May 15, 2012, at 20:54:28
In reply to Re: Chloral hydrate failing for sleep...whats next » uncouth, posted by Raisinb on May 15, 2012, at 20:28:45
> but I do remember one particularly bad bout in my mid 20s, when the only thing that worked was not sleeping in my bed. It had become so associated with freaking out about not sleeping that I just had to sit on the couch in the living room, which helped me not think about it, and then I'd magically drop off.
This is so true!
- Scott
Posted by SLS on May 15, 2012, at 20:56:47
In reply to Re: Chloral hydrate failing for sleep...whats next » SLS, posted by Phillipa on May 14, 2012, at 21:01:45
> Thing is the doc was substituting it for the 4-6 beers had nightly. So would have thought it wouldn't work? No withdrawal from alchohol. I'd looked it up and saw it's kind of like alchohol. I bet the liquid was absorbed faster. No digesting the gel capsule. Phillipa
Ah. I see. That's pretty good thinking. My first few nights on chloral hydrate were pretty good, but I very quickly built up a tolerance to it.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on May 16, 2012, at 18:41:14
In reply to Re: Chloral hydrate failing for sleep...whats next » Phillipa, posted by SLS on May 15, 2012, at 20:56:47
Scott I wonder why a full year went by before had to up to l0ml? And with the oops forgot was on ativan lmg at the time I started the chloral hydrate lmg probably three times a day and luvox at 250mg at the beginning at least. Haven't had one drink since then many many years ago. Phillipa
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