![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 16 to 40 of 56. Go back in thread:
Posted by poser938 on May 9, 2012, at 16:00:06
In reply to Re: Is the world finally waking up...., posted by Phil on May 9, 2012, at 14:29:11
I know these meds can definitely help people, but i just believe we should be informed about every possible effect these meds may have on you, especially the possibillity of them being permanent. Drug companies and maybe even the fda hid the possibillity of increased suicidal thoughts with these meds for years until they finally fessed up to it in 2004.
Posted by Willful on May 9, 2012, at 17:32:47
In reply to Re: Is the world finally waking up...., posted by poser938 on May 9, 2012, at 16:00:06
My point really wasn't that no one can be harmed by psych meds. Individuals have allergic reactions to things; there are rare or anomalous reactions. I'm not suggesting that no one, under any circumstance, can suffer harm. If a substance like water can harm people, obviously anything can. But water generally doesn't harm people. It's not a toxic substance.
I could go into all sorts of contortions about the ways in which taking meds can cause problems. That's not the point. You can be prescribed drugs that make you feel mentally or physically bad, and need to stop them. I certainly had that reaction to prozac. It was very obvious to me that I couldn't think straight and felt mentally unable to focus. But this wasn't damage and wasn't permanent.
I asked my pdoc extensively about reversibility of drugs' effects on the nervous system. He was very firm about the evidence so far. He's highly respected in the field-- and his caring and commitment is unquestionable.
I just think it's too easy to get caught up in despair about your own condition-- and to think that now, it's hopeless-- when it isn't. Maybe these drugs do harm large numbers of people, or almost anyone who takes them, permanently, as some of us seem to think. It's not beyond conception, but there's no suggestion of that now. So to be convinced of it at the moment seems to me to be the result of fears about being harmed by external forces or things-- and to be so afraid that the fear becomes a belief-- as a form of imagined self-protection against further vulnerability.
We all have these feelings-- of course. My point really is that we don't need to make fear more than they it, or to act on it.. It's better to try to remind people that they're probably not damaged-- because, with some exceptions-- and I'm not suggesting that any specific person here is or isn't-- there's no reason to believe that it's true.
\
Posted by emmanuel98 on May 9, 2012, at 19:07:42
In reply to Re: Is the world finally waking up...., posted by Willful on May 9, 2012, at 17:32:47
My p-doc gets paid $115 (including my co-pay) to see my for an hour for therapy and med help. He has never discounted my complaints about side effects. He has tried everything reasonable. When he runs out of ideas, he sends me to a consultant who specializes in meds. He doesn't speak at dinners for pharmaceutical companies. He says he is not perfect on this, since he does attend the dinners, but he tends to ask a lot of questions and sometimes the speaker gets annoyed. He's a great, ethical guy with a ton of clinical experience. I realize there are bad p-docs out there, just like there are orthopedic surgeons happy to fuse your spine when evidence suggests this makes things worse, and oncologists happy to put you on a $100,000/yr drug that might extend your life by two months.
My experience, both with my p-doc and with p-docs I've seen in hospitals and for consultation, is that these guys and women are trained to listen and be empathic. They do the best they can with drugs that don't always work or don't always work well.
I hate this anti p-doc stuff on babble. Most p-docs want the best and try the best. The problem is that little is understood about the brain and mood disorders.
Posted by Phil on May 9, 2012, at 20:00:41
In reply to I hate these anti p-doc messages, posted by emmanuel98 on May 9, 2012, at 19:07:42
and oncologists happy to put you on a $100,000/yr drug that might extend your life by two months.
_______________________Exactly. I watched my brother go through this. I know one chemo he was on was $16000.00 per treatment. And yeah, to get two months.
A doctor, name escapes me, wrote a book called How We Die. His brother had cancer and the doc tried everything in the world to save him. He couldn't. Looking back he said he did the wrong thing by making his brother suffer more instead of letting him die with dignity.
I will not do chemo or radiation if dx with advanced cancer.
________________
My psychiatrist is the real deal, too. I'm grateful to have him. What can I say?
Posted by Dinah on May 9, 2012, at 20:17:44
In reply to Re: I hate these anti p-doc messages » emmanuel98, posted by Phil on May 9, 2012, at 20:00:41
I feel that way too.
I was reflecting today that I can't imagine being more afraid of death than of living with no dignity, no significant quality of life. I can't see myself undergoing that stress to live another few months.
But then I generally try the most expensive and experimental treatments for my terminally ill dogs to eke out a few *good* months of life. I'll baby, coax, and will them through crisis points, if there is a good chance at good quality extra time. Maybe it's easier to make that decision for ourselves than it it to make it for loved ones. Or maybe it's just easier to make it theoretically. Even if loss is inevitable, maybe it's natural to try to delay it as far as possible.
Posted by Christ_empowered on May 9, 2012, at 20:34:48
In reply to Is the world finally waking up...., posted by huxley on May 9, 2012, at 4:04:17
I thnk its gonna happen. I think it needs to happen.
Personally, I benefit from Abilify @ 30 daily. My doc is talking AIMS testing just to be on the safe side. She's also talking dosage reduction. Awesome!
Then again...I've had docs who psychobabbled me and said it was a personality disorder. I guess "crazy queers" don't have real problems, right? I've had docs who underestimated my IQ by (I'm not making this up) upwards of 30 points. I've had docs break confidentiality because, apparently, a "crazy queer" is f*cking hilarious.
I took a doc to the medical board in my state through an organization, The Citizen's Commission on Human Rights. Yes, they're funded by the Scientologists. Yes, they're extremely anti-psychiatry. But they do good work, too.
I'd love to say/think that my bad experiences in mental health aren't normal. I'm afraid to say they seem a bit too common. If a medical specialty causes as much heart break and destruction as psychiatry does--at least when it's not properly restrained--then there needs to be a counter-movement to keep them in check.
Posted by Phil on May 9, 2012, at 20:41:08
In reply to Re: I hate these anti p-doc messages » Phil, posted by Dinah on May 9, 2012, at 20:17:44
Yeah, the body is programmed to live. MD Anderson is 3 hours away in Houston. Sometimes you have to wait many hours for the doctor or treatment. I have one brother and that's my family. I wouldn't ask him or friends to shuttle my wasted *ss back and forth.
I'd also prefer to die alone, the same way I've lived most of my life. Just put Amy Winehouse CD's on shuffle and leave.
I have a friend and one of his older dogs died a few weeks ago of a stroke.
Posted by huxley on May 10, 2012, at 4:40:15
In reply to I hate these anti p-doc messages, posted by emmanuel98 on May 9, 2012, at 19:07:42
"i went in to treat my "mild depression" and now 7 years later i am almost completely dysfunctional."I have heard this so much.
In the 1940s, a labotomy was a common procedure amongst psychiatrist. I wonder if in 20-30 years we will look back on the guessing game of meddling with peoples brains and see it as equally barberic as labotomies.
Posted by SLS on May 10, 2012, at 5:40:50
In reply to This is the Truth, posted by huxley on May 10, 2012, at 4:40:15
Hi Huxley.
> "i went in to treat my "mild depression" and now 7 years later i am almost completely dysfunctional."
This is an exercise in logic:How were you able to discount the possibility that the natural course of your illness progressed over the course of 7 years?
7 years is more than enough time for depression to worsen from mild to severe. It took less than 7 years for me to have this happen - and this occurred before I ever took a psychotropic drug.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on May 10, 2012, at 5:45:37
In reply to Re: Is the world finally waking up...., posted by Willful on May 9, 2012, at 13:21:54
I think your post is very important in that it helps to bring balance to an Internet that is currently focused on
> IMO what's happening here is that some very fearful people are making their voices heard on the med board, and they've either influenced other people who are somewhat fearful, or those who haven't yet found a workable med regimen, and who are angry and upset about it (understandably) to begin to blame their doctors-- and to disavow all meds-- for the moment.
>
> These aren't the world-- and I don't think they're even representative of people who take meds. We forget that we're a very small population of people and that many of us are still searching for adequate treatment. And that doctors aren't to blame for our lack of treatments-- the world just hasn't gotten there yet. This is tragic, no doubt. But it really isn't anyone's fault. I mean we can blame Big Pharma-- and I"m sure that their overall decisions are bad and self-serving-- in fact, to be honest we live in a time when profit, particularly for shareholders, is the accepted prime directive for corporations. So blame economists and politicians-- or blame our lack of intellectual subtlety as a species-- or just accept that we're living in a time when there are not yet treatments that I know we all hope for.
>
> But don't accept the myths perpetrated by the most fearful and angry among us-- and don't believe the fearful distortions that they're putting out. Meds are not destroying our brains-- or giving us brain damage. They may not help and they have side effects---and also certainly discontinuation syndromes. The body in general, including the brain, adjusts to meds, and has to readjust to the absence of meds, when we take them. But we're okay. We;re not being permanently and irremediably injured.
>
> I'm just like the rest of us-- I have meds that work well enough--- for which I'm extremely grateful-- but meds that don't work really well. But I count myself lucky. I've accepted that this is the best life I can have, and I would never go back to my life prior to these meds.
>
> But I don't believe these stories or agitations about destroying ourselves-- or the noxiousness of pdocs. Of course there are crude and unhelpful-- even harmful-- ones-- as in any profession. But that's not the point. Most of them are trying to help. I'm glad people are here informing themselves so they can be as active in their treatment as possible-- we shouldn't go in with eyes closed and trust blindly or without considering what's being offered. But basic trust is so important.
>
> And these myths and fears not only undermine that-- but spread a sort of terror of some imminent and unseen threat to the most fundamental part of ourselves-- which is unfounded and really unhelpful.
>
> Willful
>
>
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 10, 2012, at 6:34:53
In reply to Re: Is the world finally waking up...., posted by Willful on May 9, 2012, at 13:21:54
> IMO what's happening here is that some very fearful people are making their voices heard on the med board, and they've either influenced other people who are somewhat fearful, or those who haven't yet found a workable med regimen, and who are angry and upset about it (understandably) to begin to blame their doctors-- and to disavow all meds-- for the moment.
>
> These aren't the world-- and I don't think they're even representative of people who take meds. We forget that we're a very small population of people and that many of us are still searching for adequate treatment. And that doctors aren't to blame for our lack of treatments-- the world just hasn't gotten there yet. This is tragic, no doubt. But it really isn't anyone's fault. I mean we can blame Big Pharma-- and I"m sure that their overall decisions are bad and self-serving-- in fact, to be honest we live in a time when profit, particularly for shareholders, is the accepted prime directive for corporations. So blame economists and politicians-- or blame our lack of intellectual subtlety as a species-- or just accept that we're living in a time when there are not yet treatments that I know we all hope for.
>
> But don't accept the myths perpetrated by the most fearful and angry among us-- and don't believe the fearful distortions that they're putting out. Meds are not destroying our brains-- or giving us brain damage. They may not help and they have side effects---and also certainly discontinuation syndromes. The body in general, including the brain, adjusts to meds, and has to readjust to the absence of meds, when we take them. But we're okay. We;re not being permanently and irremediably injured.
>
> I'm just like the rest of us-- I have meds that work well enough--- for which I'm extremely grateful-- but meds that don't work really well. But I count myself lucky. I've accepted that this is the best life I can have, and I would never go back to my life prior to these meds.
>
> But I don't believe these stories or agitations about destroying ourselves-- or the noxiousness of pdocs. Of course there are crude and unhelpful-- even harmful-- ones-- as in any profession. But that's not the point. Most of them are trying to help. I'm glad people are here informing themselves so they can be as active in their treatment as possible-- we shouldn't go in with eyes closed and trust blindly or without considering what's being offered. But basic trust is so important.
>
> And these myths and fears not only undermine that-- but spread a sort of terror of some imminent and unseen threat to the most fundamental part of ourselves-- which is unfounded and really unhelpful.
>
> Willful
>
> Willfull,
You wrote,[...don't accept the myths perpetrated...].
I m unsure as to what the myths aare that you do not want others to accept. If you could post answers here to the following, then I could respond to you.
A. What are the myths in question?
B. What criteria do you uuse to use the word {myth}?
C. Are you aware that it is generally accepted that about 42,000 people died last year by one means or another from psychiatric drugs?
D. Are you aware that it is now generally accepted and that the FDA has requiered a warning by the drug manufacturerers that there are classes of psychotropic drugs that could increase suicide thinking to the one taking those drugs?
E. Have you examined the administrative board here to see the outstanding requests from me to the administration here?
F. If so, do you think that if my requests were to have responses from the administration posted there that lives could be saves, life-ruining conditions could be avoided and addictions could be avoided and that I could post what IMHO could lead people out of depression and addiction?
G. If you have read those posts by me, do you think that those taking mind-altering drugs given to them by psychiatrists/other prescribers have the potential to target a Jew or others that do not accept the claim that is allowed to be determined by Mr. Hsiung as {OK}, because the claim in question that is allowed to stand could be considered to be supportive because Mr. Hsiung states that support takes precedence?
Lou
Posted by Phil on May 10, 2012, at 7:32:37
In reply to Re: Is the world finally waking up.... Nice Post. » Willful, posted by SLS on May 10, 2012, at 5:45:37
So what is dysfunctional? I've known many people who are completely dysfunctional who never touched a drug. It is behavior problems.
So, in your case, what exactly is wrong? Can't read or write? Drive a car? Grocery shop? Or is it a stronger form of depression?
For mild depression I wouldn't even have gone to a doctor. CBT and exercise would have done the trick.
DBT has success treating this stuff. A neurologist could tell you if there is damage. Have you tried these avenues?
You will have to answer many questions honestly to get at the truth.
Is getting out of bed, showering, getting dressed, going out in the world the issue? Then your depression has advanced and it has nothing to do with meds.
Will meds become the new lobotomies or a high voltage ECT without muscle relaxants and sedatives? No way not ever. Tell you what, go get a lobotomy and unmedicated ECT, I'll take Prozac, we can meet in 10 years. Outcome will be obvious.
Lastly, anyone who goes to a doctor for the flu or an operation or mental problems should know that there's an inherent risk in medicine. My family doc gave me an antibiotic for an infection, I thought I would die. This was not his fault, he was doing the best thing and it didn't work. Did I go everywhere telling a fine physician almost killed my and that AB's were bad? Was I angry? Of course not.
Jane Pauley took steroids for a condition and went completely manic. You never know.
I'm sorry for anyone that thinks they're brain damaged but just because you think you are doesn't mean anything. Your dysfunctional brain is trying to sort out your brain and that does not work.
Billions of SSRI's have been prescribed for decades. If even 5% 'knew' they has brain damage there would be marching in the streets and even bombing on Pharma campuses.
The big pharma scientists have nothing to do with marketing the end product. Their job is to produce better medicines and they are committed to that goal. They are competitive and they want ti hit the home run that will help us like never before.
I'm extremely grateful for their efforts so far.
Posted by Dinah on May 10, 2012, at 9:04:48
In reply to This is the Truth, posted by huxley on May 10, 2012, at 4:40:15
I think I have an ingrained reaction to capitalized truth.
Can a distinction at least be made? I've seen unmedicated psychosis. I've seen unmedicated bipolar. My family has a long history of severe depression self treated. I wouldn't want to go back to those days. My aunt unmedicated? Unable to be a mother to her children. Miserable and afraid. My aunt medicated? A productive member of society and beloved mother with some troublesome side effects.
I think the most pro-medication people would agree that psych meds are overprescribed by ignorant doctors who find reaching for a prescription pad the easiest solution.
I think most people who believe in mental illness as a serious problem where kindling can make the problem more and more severe could be induced to believe that medications can have long lasting effects on some people.
I hope that most anti med people are not blanketly anti med, and can agree that some mental illness is better treated than not.
The thing is that I am seeing balanced posts by pro-med people a whole lot more than I am seeing balanced posts by anti-med people. This overall makes me more pro-med than I might otherwise be. But that's me. And admittedly, I might be guilty of remembering some posts more than others. But I honestly don't recall many people speaking lyrically of the magic of medicine for everyone who suffers the slightest problem, and do recall many posts damning all psych meds.
I'd also like to see some evidence that psych meds are more harmful than any other meds. Seems to me that I can only recall one psych meds among the many legal cattle calls for class action suits.
Posted by Dinah on May 10, 2012, at 9:10:35
In reply to the Truth(s), posted by Dinah on May 10, 2012, at 9:04:48
I do think that doctors should stop prescribing SSRI's like candy, with the assumption that they are the least harmful of the psych meds and you might as well start with them.
Anxious? Don't want to prescribe a nasty addictive benzo or a scary AP. At least an SSRI won't hurt and might help.
Depressed? Well, there might be situational factors, but it can't hurt to give an SSRI and might help.
That kind of thinking is wrong. SSRI's are not harmless to certain subsets of patients, and doctors need to be more discriminating. Doctors are just too fond of having a first line course of treatment for any presenting condition.
Posted by ron1953 on May 10, 2012, at 10:35:49
In reply to an opinion, posted by Dinah on May 10, 2012, at 9:10:35
> I do think that doctors should stop prescribing SSRI's like candy, with the assumption that they are the least harmful of the psych meds and you might as well start with them.
>
> Anxious? Don't want to prescribe a nasty addictive benzo or a scary AP. At least an SSRI won't hurt and might help.
>
> Depressed? Well, there might be situational factors, but it can't hurt to give an SSRI and might help.
>
> That kind of thinking is wrong. SSRI's are not harmless to certain subsets of patients, and doctors need to be more discriminating. Doctors are just too fond of having a first line course of treatment for any presenting condition.
----------------------------------------------
And that goes to the newer ways medical practices work, what with harried doctors cramming in as many 10-minute visits as possible in a day, and this includes many of what you folks refer to as "pdocs". Regardless of the patient's condition, most doctors do not spend enough time to properly address the ENTIRE patient. Such is the corporatization of American medicine.I don't have any studies or statistics to cite, but I do know that there is a sizable number of people who are taking unnecessary medications and/or are over-medicated.
The other side of the coin is patients having unrealistic expectations about what doctors can actually do, or those who think doctors are some sort of gods.
I like to remind myself of an old riddle:
Q: What do you call somebody who graduated at the bottom of their medical school class?
A: "Doctor"
Posted by AlexanderDenmark on May 10, 2012, at 11:17:42
In reply to Re: an opinion, posted by ron1953 on May 10, 2012, at 10:35:49
> > I do think that doctors should stop prescribing SSRI's like candy, with the assumption that they are the least harmful of the psych meds and you might as well start with them.
> >
> > Anxious? Don't want to prescribe a nasty addictive benzo or a scary AP. At least an SSRI won't hurt and might help.
> >
> > Depressed? Well, there might be situational factors, but it can't hurt to give an SSRI and might help.
> >
> > That kind of thinking is wrong. SSRI's are not harmless to certain subsets of patients, and doctors need to be more discriminating. Doctors are just too fond of having a first line course of treatment for any presenting condition.
> ----------------------------------------------
> And that goes to the newer ways medical practices work, what with harried doctors cramming in as many 10-minute visits as possible in a day, and this includes many of what you folks refer to as "pdocs". Regardless of the patient's condition, most doctors do not spend enough time to properly address the ENTIRE patient. Such is the corporatization of American medicine.
>
> I don't have any studies or statistics to cite, but I do know that there is a sizable number of people who are taking unnecessary medications and/or are over-medicated.
>
> The other side of the coin is patients having unrealistic expectations about what doctors can actually do, or those who think doctors are some sort of gods.
>
> I like to remind myself of an old riddle:
>
> Q: What do you call somebody who graduated at the bottom of their medical school class?
>
> A: "Doctor"TBF most doctors fancy this image of themselves.
Posted by Phil on May 10, 2012, at 12:05:02
In reply to Re: an opinion, posted by ron1953 on May 10, 2012, at 10:35:49
> > I do think that doctors should stop prescribing SSRI's like candy, with the assumption that they are the least harmful of the psych meds and you might as well start with them.
>>Sales of almost all SSRI's have dropped off the charts. They may still prescribe too many but they don't prescribe anywhere near what they used to. Or maybe I'm missing something.> And that goes to the newer ways medical practices work, what with harried doctors cramming in as many 10-minute visits as possible in a day, and this includes many of what you folks refer to as "pdocs".
>>>My insurance 15 years ago only allowed 15 minute med checks. Not the doctors fault or plan. My primary care doc is busy but he will stay and answer my concerns. Doctors don't want to be pcp because of low pay. It's putting more strain on the existing ones.
> I don't have any studies or statistics to cite, but I do know that there is a sizable number of people who are taking unnecessary medications and/or are over-medicated.>>>And many not taking enough. Plus, millions of people with all different mental illnesses represented that don't even have a diagnosis. Over-med, no med, both bad. Us bipolar disordered people have a nasty tendency toward suicide, especially if unmedicated. I had one aborted attempt and I'm quite sure that if I didn't get rid of my gun 9 years ago I wouldn't be here.
> The other side of the coin is patients having unrealistic expectations about what doctors can actually do, or those who think doctors are some sort of gods.
>>>Yup.
> I like to remind myself of an old riddle:
>
> Q: What do you call somebody who graduated at the bottom of their medical school class?
>
> A: "Doctor">>>But may end up being an incredible doctor. How many millionaire / billionaires dropped out of school, have no qualifications to run places like Dell, Apple, Microsoft? But I do like the joke.
Posted by ron1953 on May 10, 2012, at 12:23:42
In reply to Re: an opinion, posted by Phil on May 10, 2012, at 12:05:02
Of course, graduating at the top of the class doesn't necessarily make for a good doctor, either. A student may have excellent memory, regurgitation, test-taking, and apple-polishing skills but that doesn't mean he/she will be a good diagnostician.
Posted by Phil on May 10, 2012, at 12:38:26
In reply to Re: an opinion » Phil, posted by ron1953 on May 10, 2012, at 12:23:42
Plus, as I was reading on that student doctor site, there are all kinds of variables between schools or residencies(?). Some places push you 80 hours a week, some 40. Some get more grant money. Some have the most competitive programs.
I would not want to be a doctor even if I had the smarts and trust me, I don't.
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 10, 2012, at 15:51:05
In reply to Re: Is the world finally waking up...., posted by Dinah on May 9, 2012, at 9:59:50
> I too think side effects have been under-appreciated. Unfortunately negative bias by medical personnel may lead self reports of mental health patients to be discounted. Not that I give that much more credit to the sensitivity of doctors to other groups of patients....
>
> The side effects of medications are too often thought to be all in our minds, while the positive effects aren't considered placebo effects. Maybe that's changing as more patient reports are coming to be recognized as truth. Remember when the sexual side effects of SSRI's were thought to be rare? I think that may have been within the period of time I've been posting here.
>
> On the other hand, I don't see why long term use of a maintenance medication should be considered a bad thing if it's working at least to some extent, with tolerable side effects. Illnesses might be able to be treated short term. Surely conditions can't be.
>
> I have seen too much pain caused by unmedicated mental illness to have any objection to long term medications. In every case, benefits and risks should be weighed.
>
> On the other hand, I firmly support an objection to unsafe medications and medications unwisely prescribed. My experience with GP's on non-mental health issues does not lead me to believe that this is limited to psych meds. A GP once wanted to prescribe narcotics to me for migraines, without even looking first at triptans!!!Dinah,
You wrote[...I firmly support an objection to unsafe medications...].
I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean here. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A. What criteria do you use to designate a medication as {unsafe]?
B. In your opinion, are all psychiatric drugs either safe or unsafe?
C. In a safe psychiatric medication, that is determined by you, could that same medication cause {sudden death} in another person taken as directed?
D. If a psychiatric drug could cause tardive dyskinesia, could that drug be a safe drug according to your criteria?
E. If a psychiatric medication could caue one to go into a withdrawal syndrome if dicontinued, could that drug be a {safe} medication?
F. If a pychiatric drug that you conider to be afe could caue a heart attack, could that drug be a safe medication?
G. If a child is given (redacted by repondent)
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 10, 2012, at 16:12:45
In reply to Re: Is the world finally waking up...., posted by Phil on May 9, 2012, at 10:52:53
> It's odd. When my brother was very sick and dying with cancer and being given radiation and one chemo after another that caused incredible side effects.
>
> Yet it was rare to hear patients at MD Anderson blaming Big Pharma and almost universally patients liked their doctors.
>
> Why? Sure cancer will kill you in many cases. Guess what, so will mental illness.
>
> Fact is, oncology is easier. They have studies that are so precise. ex. This chemo works best on Pacific Islander women between 28-35yo.
>
> When my bro ran out of drugs, the doc said call hospice and sent him home.
>
> Oncologists don't give chemo for no reason. No, they see the cancer and treat it.
>
> In both professions it's art and science. But the ONLY thing pdoc's have to work with is what we tell them.
>
> I've heard of people not following their doctors orders, not taking meds, getting drunk every night and then they say, my psychiatrist sucks.
>
> Some do suck but so do many patients that frankly are going to get what they ask for because they just aren't honest.Phil,
You wrote,[...cancer will kill you...so will mental illness...].
I am unure a to what you are wanting to meanhere. If you could pot anwer to the following, then I could have the opportunity to repond accordingly.
A. How does the mental illness cause death, as you wrote?
If it is by suicide, could you include the following in any answer that you post here?
1. The FDA states that many clasess of psychiatric drugs can increae suicide thinking
2. Do you know of the many studies that how that many pychiatric drugs could caue akatheia and induce a mind-altered state to compel the person taking the drug to want to kill themelves? Or others? Or go on a shooting rampage and be shot by police?
3. Are you aware that it is generally accepted that aboult 42,000 people died last year from pychiatric drug by one means or another?
4. Do you know that the chemical constituants in many pychotropic drugs come from (redacted by repondent) and that the drug one takes now may not be a new drug at all, but just a knock-off of an old drug?
B. If the death is not by suicide, could you post a citation to substantiate any claim you could make of that the death is caused my mental illness?
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 10, 2012, at 16:34:04
In reply to Re: Is the world finally waking up...., posted by Willful on May 9, 2012, at 17:32:47
Willful,
You wrote,[...I asked (my doctor) about reversibility of drugs effects on the nervous system. He was very firm about the evidence so far...].
I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean here. If you could post answers to the following, then I could respond accordingly.
A. What effects on the nervous system did you ask the doctor about?
B. What was the doctor's evidnce that he/she was firm about?
C. Are you aware that tardive dyskinesia could be irreversible?
D. Are you aware that death from the drugs could be considered to be caused by an irreversible effect of the drug?
E. Ared you aware that there is evidence that psychiatric drugs could cause irreversible harm to the brain and other parts of the nervous system? If so, how could that fact be included in whatever you say that your doctor was firm about?
Lou
Posted by Phil on May 10, 2012, at 16:42:03
In reply to Lou' request-ehypstngdheeluzn » Phil, posted by Lou Pilder on May 10, 2012, at 16:12:45
Lou I just have to rephrase what I said.
Cancer can kill you, so can mental illness.
Cancer is obvious. Mental illness..suicide. Grab a cop while psychotic and he shoots you. I guess with psychosis many bad scenario's are possible.
While manic, driving fast and having a wreck. Hypersexual get caught in the sack with another mans wife. Bad judgement with mania or psychotic mania.That's the best I can do, Lou.
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 10, 2012, at 16:54:49
In reply to I hate these anti p-doc messages, posted by emmanuel98 on May 9, 2012, at 19:07:42
> My p-doc gets paid $115 (including my co-pay) to see my for an hour for therapy and med help. He has never discounted my complaints about side effects. He has tried everything reasonable. When he runs out of ideas, he sends me to a consultant who specializes in meds. He doesn't speak at dinners for pharmaceutical companies. He says he is not perfect on this, since he does attend the dinners, but he tends to ask a lot of questions and sometimes the speaker gets annoyed. He's a great, ethical guy with a ton of clinical experience. I realize there are bad p-docs out there, just like there are orthopedic surgeons happy to fuse your spine when evidence suggests this makes things worse, and oncologists happy to put you on a $100,000/yr drug that might extend your life by two months.
>
> My experience, both with my p-doc and with p-docs I've seen in hospitals and for consultation, is that these guys and women are trained to listen and be empathic. They do the best they can with drugs that don't always work or don't always work well.
>
> I hate this anti p-doc stuff on babble. Most p-docs want the best and try the best. The problem is that little is understood about the brain and mood disorders.emannual,
You wrote,[...most p-docs want the best and try the best...littls understood about the brain and mood disorders...].
I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A. What is the criteria that you used to determine that most p-docs want the best, and the best for who? (whom?) and what is the criteria that you use to determine if a p-doc is trying his/her best?
B. If a p-doc is trying their best, would one thing be to disclose to their client that there are people that claim that there are faiths, such as Judaism that could give one peace and joy without taking mind-altering drugs?
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 10, 2012, at 17:28:41
In reply to the Truth(s), posted by Dinah on May 10, 2012, at 9:04:48
> I think I have an ingrained reaction to capitalized truth.
>
> Can a distinction at least be made? I've seen unmedicated psychosis. I've seen unmedicated bipolar. My family has a long history of severe depression self treated. I wouldn't want to go back to those days. My aunt unmedicated? Unable to be a mother to her children. Miserable and afraid. My aunt medicated? A productive member of society and beloved mother with some troublesome side effects.
>
> I think the most pro-medication people would agree that psych meds are overprescribed by ignorant doctors who find reaching for a prescription pad the easiest solution.
>
> I think most people who believe in mental illness as a serious problem where kindling can make the problem more and more severe could be induced to believe that medications can have long lasting effects on some people.
>
> I hope that most anti med people are not blanketly anti med, and can agree that some mental illness is better treated than not.
>
> The thing is that I am seeing balanced posts by pro-med people a whole lot more than I am seeing balanced posts by anti-med people. This overall makes me more pro-med than I might otherwise be. But that's me. And admittedly, I might be guilty of remembering some posts more than others. But I honestly don't recall many people speaking lyrically of the magic of medicine for everyone who suffers the slightest problem, and do recall many posts damning all psych meds.
>
> I'd also like to see some evidence that psych meds are more harmful than any other meds. Seems to me that I can only recall one psych meds among the many legal cattle calls for class action suits.Dinah,
You wrote,[...psych meds are overprescribed by xxx doctors...].
I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean. If you could post answers to the following, then I could respond accordingly.
A. What criteria did you use to determine that psych meds are {overprescribed}?
B. Is it not a fact that there is a manual that gives the drug to treat a particlar symptom and there is also the dosage given, such as the PDR?
C. If the doctor follows that regimin in the book, then he/she is just doing what the profession calls for, correct?
D. Is it not illegal to overprescribe if the manual used calls for not overprescribing? I mean, can a prescriber give more than what is called for in the PDR? The prescriber can't give 100mg of a drug if the PDR states only 25 mg, can they? So what is the criteria that you used to charactorize those doctors as xxx?
Lou
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