Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 1006932

Shown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

med change to marijuana?

Posted by JohnLA on January 10, 2012, at 20:41:18

woody allen said that making a right turn on a red light is considered 'culture' in california...

another somewhat unique cultural characteristic of california is that we have legally prescribed marijuana.

i've been reading quite a bit on the use of marijuana in treating depression. it seems to be split down the middle as with most if not all psych meds. the one consistent fact seems to be getting the correct strain of mj and using less not more when treating anxiety/depression. meaning, not looking to get 'high' or euphoric, but just a smoke or two to elevate one's mood.

i have smoked in the past. not a lot. but, i can tell you i felt better on weed than the effexor, wellbutrin, celexa, remeron, cymbalta, abilify and ect that i have tried over the past 2 years.

i am going tomorrow to get a marijuana medical card. then, go to a state run dispensary which has a huge variety of marijuana strains. there are specific strains for the treatment of depression. i'm a little nervous about this, but it can't be worse than having ect...

so, my question is; anybody try legally prescribed marijuana for depression? not asking about stuff bought 'off the street.' that is a completely different beast.

thanks for any replies!

john

 

Re: med change to marijuana? » JohnLA

Posted by Phillipa on January 10, 2012, at 21:20:17

In reply to med change to marijuana?, posted by JohnLA on January 10, 2012, at 20:41:18

John please post the results why we could do a study on this here. Good luck. Phillipa

 

got my mj medical card today...

Posted by JohnLA on January 11, 2012, at 20:04:23

In reply to Re: med change to marijuana? » JohnLA, posted by Phillipa on January 10, 2012, at 21:20:17

i went to a doctor and got my prescription medical card for marijuana today.

so, another med trial starts...

i'll keep you guys posted.

john

 

good luck man

Posted by Christ_empowered on January 11, 2012, at 21:18:45

In reply to got my mj medical card today..., posted by JohnLA on January 11, 2012, at 20:04:23

hopefully, you'll be able to reduce (or eliminate) some medication(s) from your line up. Good luck to you.

 

Re: med change to marijuana?

Posted by bleauberry on January 12, 2012, at 6:44:01

In reply to med change to marijuana?, posted by JohnLA on January 10, 2012, at 20:41:18

I know a guy who failed a bunch of meds, then failed ECT, but he now functions as a normal active engaged person and his only medicine is daily marijuana.

Pot can create depression as well as improve it. The strain is indeed very important, as is the size and timing of the dose. For strains you want to look primarily at ones that are Sativa dominant. The Indica strains are better for pain, sleep, anxiety, appetite. Most strains have a blend of Sativa and Indica in varying proportions and this can help to custom tailer the desired effect.

Depression caused by pot, in my opinion, is due to one or more of these:
1. Wrong strain
2. Too much dosing
3. Abuse

When viewed and used as a medicine, the proper strain of marijuana can easily blow effexor and friends in the weeds, no pun intended. It does take some responsibility to manage it properly, just as every med does. But in terms of health improvement potential, I see a much broader horizon of healing with cannabis than I do with whatever a psychiatrist might prescribe.

 

Re: got my mj medical card today... » JohnLA

Posted by SLS on January 12, 2012, at 6:49:00

In reply to got my mj medical card today..., posted by JohnLA on January 11, 2012, at 20:04:23

> i went to a doctor and got my prescription medical card for marijuana today.
>
> so, another med trial starts...
>
> i'll keep you guys posted.

Please do.

Better minds than mine have noted that the cannibinoid system might be involved with depression. It's too bad that the substances most responsible for an antidepressant effect are not identified, isolated, and refined. It is possible that administering THC is counterproductive. There are a bunch of other cannibinoid substances contained in marijuana.


- Scott

 

Re: got my mj medical card today...

Posted by linkadge on January 14, 2012, at 14:50:55

In reply to Re: got my mj medical card today... » JohnLA, posted by SLS on January 12, 2012, at 6:49:00

I think its the dose of the cannabanoid thats important. Lower doses of cannabanoid agonists increase serotonin / norepinephrine release, wherase higher doses can inhibit it.

 

Re: got my mj medical card today...

Posted by SLS on January 14, 2012, at 16:08:45

In reply to Re: got my mj medical card today..., posted by linkadge on January 14, 2012, at 14:50:55

Key Cannabis Components Have Opposite Effects on the Brain

Fran Lowry


January 9, 2012 The 2 main chemical ingredients in marijuana, δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) and cannabidiol (CBD), can have very different effects on behavior and in the brain, new research shows.

Even a single modest dose of THC can induce psychotic symptoms, whereas CBD can be useful as a treatment for psychosis, according to lead author Sagnik Bhattacharyya, MBBS, MD, PhD, from the Institute of Psychiatry, Kings College London, London, United Kingdom.

"Often, people have polarized views about marijuana. Some consider it to be essentially harmless but potentially useful as a treatment in a number of medical conditions, and others link it to potentially severe public health consequences in terms of mental health," Dr. Bhattacharyya told Medscape Medical News.

"Whilst the results are still preliminary, our study is the first experimental evidence of the effect cannabis has on peoples attribution of salience, or the importance they attach to things they perceive. The results add to the idea that psychotic symptoms may develop through individuals attaching inappropriate prominence to insignificant experiences or stimuli."

The study is published in the January issue of Archives of General Psychiatry.

Psychosis Risk

A number of studies have clearly shown that regular marijuana use in vulnerable individuals is associated with increased risk of developing psychotic disorders such as schizophrenia, in which patients lose contact with reality.

"Paranoid and delusional thinking, when one has false ideas about what is happening, is a key characteristic of schizophrenia. However, how marijuana may make a person paranoid has been unclear," Dr. Bhattacharyya said. "In this study, we investigated the brain mechanisms that may underlie this effect."

The investigators examined 15 healthy men, mean age 26.7 years (range, 20.9 to 32.4 years), who were occasional marijuana users, to look at the effects of THC and CBD on regional brain function.

The researchers used functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) to study each participant on 3 separate occasions after administration of THC, CBD, or a placebo.

The subjects then performed a visual oddball detection task in order that the investigators could understand the importance each individual attached to specific stimuli.

The researchers found that under the influence of THC, the main ingredient in marijuana that is responsible for the "high," the men perceived normally insignificant visual stimuli as more significant and salient.

Paranoia Explained

They also experienced symptoms of psychosis, such as paranoid and delusional thinking, which were associated with an effect of THC on the normal functioning of the striatum and lateral prefrontal cortex.

"These regions of the brain signal whether things that we perceive are salient and significant or not. They are normally activated when the brain processes stimuli that it perceives as salient, significant or relevant," Dr. Bhattacharyya explained.

"For example, how strongly the striatum responds tells us how salient or significant we perceive something. But in this study, THC increased the response of the striatum to insignificant stimuli and decreased its response to those stimuli that would normally be perceived as salient or significant in the context of the task," he noted.

Moreover, the effects in the brain were related to the severity of the psychotic symptoms that were induced by THC, he added.

"The more THC decreased the normal striatal response to salient stimuli, the greater was the severity of the psychotic symptoms, such as paranoid thinking and delusions," he said.

"These findings help explain why smoking marijuana can result in feelings of paranoia, or in the most extreme cases, psychotic episodes, as individuals attach special importance or meaning to normally insignificant experiences or stimuli."

CBD, on the other hand, had the opposite effect, increasing the response of the left caudate, an area of the brain weakened by THC. The finding suggests that CBD may have potential in the treatment of psychosis, Dr. Bhattacharyya said.

He hopes that the results from this study will facilitate a more balanced discussion regarding the health effects of marijuana as well as stimulate further research into the therapeutic potential of CBD.

Another hope is that more research will be done into the genetic basis responsible for the "considerable" variability in individual responses to THC.

Low CBD Concentrations

Killian Welch, MD, from the University of Edinburgh, Royal Edinburgh Hospital, United Kingdom, who recently headed a study that found that smoking marijuana led to a loss of brain volume in people with a strong family history of schizophrenia, told Medscape Medical News that the study by Dr. Bhattacharyya and colleagues was "very good and well-designed."

The fact that the authors also examined the effects of CBD made the study even more interesting, he said.

"As subjects were also given cannabidiol, the impact of this drug on brain function on presentation of salient relative to nonsalient stimuli could also be examined. Administration of cannabidiol was associated with the opposite effects on brain function to THC, a finding which may be of significance in understanding how cannabidiol may counteract the psychotomimetic effects of THC," Dr. Welch said.

He agreed that CBD, which is present in naturally occurring marijuana, may have antipsychotic properties, but he cautioned that concentrations in modern strains of marijuana, which he referred to as "skunk," are very low.

The study was supported by a Joint Medical Research Council/Prior Clinical research training fellowship from the Medical Research Council and the Psychiatry Research Trust, United Kingdom. Dr. Bhattacharyya and Dr. Welch report no relevant financial relationships.

Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2012;69: 27-36. Abstract

 

Re: med change to marijuana? » JohnLA

Posted by phidippus on January 15, 2012, at 18:14:51

In reply to med change to marijuana?, posted by JohnLA on January 10, 2012, at 20:41:18

Marijuana has two psychotropic constituents: THC and CDD. THC is not real helpful for depression and can cause psychoses.

CBD, on the other hand, may help with anxiety.

I would not treat depression with Marijuana.

Eric

 

Re: med change to marijuana? » phidippus

Posted by europerep on January 16, 2012, at 7:23:27

In reply to Re: med change to marijuana? » JohnLA, posted by phidippus on January 15, 2012, at 18:14:51

> Marijuana has two psychotropic constituents: THC and CDD. THC is not real helpful for depression and can cause psychoses.
>
> CBD, on the other hand, may help with anxiety.

This is all not true. Cannabis has contains a wide range of active cannabinoids, including but not limited to THC and CBD. Many of the compounds haven't even been researched yet, plus the combination of all those compounds may have synergistic effects. Of course, the fact that the molecules have not been researched yet can be good or bad, or a little bit of both.

Furthermore, there is evidence for the involvement of effects on the endocannabinoid system for basically all modes of pharmacological treatment of depression, from SSRIs to ECT. Boris Gorzalka and Matthew Hill have published a lot on those questions.

The comment about THC and psychosis is not true as well, or more precisely, it's not universally true. Look at this article for example:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21114952 (I cannot find a site that features the abstract for free, but if needed I can post the article here)
It seems that there is a genetic component to whether patients with psychosis improve or deteriorate when exposed to THC.

Having said all that, I don't think that cannabis is a *good* treatment for psychosis or depression. At best, it can be an effective treatment with enormous side effects. Seeing that there is no drug on the market that specifically targets the endocannabinoid system (such as the FAAH inhibitors that are currently being developed), cannabis may be the best option if all other treatment modes fail. As bleauberry said, using cannabis for these purposes requires some responsibility, maybe even more so than is the case with other drugs, but for patients who benefit from it, the risk-vs-benefit evaluation can very clearly be positive.

 

Re: med change to marijuana? » europerep

Posted by phidippus on January 16, 2012, at 18:29:15

In reply to Re: med change to marijuana? » phidippus, posted by europerep on January 16, 2012, at 7:23:27

The basic problem with Marijuana is that it is a drug with a very complex mode of action. It is not predictable in its effects.

Eric

 

Re: med change to marijuana? » phidippus

Posted by europerep on January 17, 2012, at 6:41:41

In reply to Re: med change to marijuana? » europerep, posted by phidippus on January 16, 2012, at 18:29:15

> The basic problem with Marijuana is that it is a drug with a very complex mode of action. It is not predictable in its effects.

Yes, that is true.

That doesn't mean that it cannot be therapeutically used though, even in psychiatry. Before trying out marijuana, I would recommend to every patient that they try dronabinol (i.e. THC, brand names Marinol and others) on its own first, precisely because dronabinol is at least somewhat less unpredictable. However, if this is not or not sufficiently effective, a careful trial of marijuana *can* be warranted. Even more so than with other drugs, this has to be decided case-by-case.

And, needless to say, all this only applies when all other more extensively studied pharmacological treatments have failed.

 

the mj project; 1 week in...

Posted by JohnLA on January 17, 2012, at 14:53:23

In reply to med change to marijuana?, posted by JohnLA on January 10, 2012, at 20:41:18

thanks for all the replies guys. interesting points of view.

well, i have been using medical my for a week now and here is my experience so far. actually let me back-up a bit and start from the point when i got my medical card...

i met with a real doctor and we went over my history, both physical and mental. it wasn't too much different than going to a psychiatrist to be honest. he made no promises and stressed that for mental conditions 'less is more' when treating anxiety and depression. he also recommended that i 'eat' the weed instead of smoke it since i suffer from moderate asthma.

so, i get my card and i find a local marijuana 'pharmacy.' i'm not a 'stoner' but i would have to believe if you like marijuana you would be in heaven due to the amount and variety of marijuana products they had in this little shop.

similar to psych drugs there were all sorts of strains. i had done a bit of research before i ever went this route so i had an idea of what i was looking for. though i was hoping, just like a 'real' pharmacy i would get advice on what might work best. i was way wrong on that. the staff was very kind and all, but extremely young. all with no medical background. i was disappointed with this, but what did i expect? pretty naive of me to think there would be someone back there w/a white coat. side-bar; if people really want to get marijuana legalized properly i think it should be sold in a true pharmacy.

so, in the middle of asking questions to a young man behind the counter about what would be best for my depression i realized he had no real clue. or, no more real amount of info than i had...

so, just like i did with wellbutrin, cymbalta, effexor, lexapro. celexa and my remeron it was time to 'sample' a few strains.

as i mentioned earlier the prescribing doc recommended 'edibles' and that is what i got. some brownies, a candy bar, and muffins. i think i got about 5 different strains of weed.

i've tried 3 so far...

the first was a candy bar. tasted great. really it did. it was a medium strength bud. i took kust a tiny bite, maybe 3/4". right before bed. this along with remeron and 2mg klonopin. i woke-up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom and i realized i was really stoned. and not in a good way. it has been a while since i had smoked. i felt more drunk than stoned actually. i was a little bummed. but! as it wore-off i had a very pleasnat relaxed feeling. and i didn't take any klonopin the next day. still, i realized this one was too strong.

a few nights later i tried a weaker strain. took half my klonopin dose (1mg) and my remeron 30mg. woke-up as usual in the middle of the night and felt a bit 'stoned' but nothing like the other stuff. way more mild and pleasant. went back to bed and then woke-up and had a good day, relatively speaking. again, took no klonopin during the day.

finally last night tried a 3rd product. again, cutting my klonopin in half and taking my usual remeron. this one was a little too strong, not as strong as the first one, but it was too much for me.

that's it so far. i have 2 more to try. actually a lot more to try really if i want to. not sure i will though.

i'm a little curious in trying some even weaker strains to see if it will allow me to get off the klonopin completely.

i agree w/many of you; if you try this route you need to be very careful on the amount you use, strain, and what other meds you are on. also, though i have not been psychotic this possibility would also motivate me to use as little as possible.

oh yeah, no side effects except a little mellow the next day and the 'munchies' are amazingly good.

i'll keep you posted.

john


 

Re: good luck man

Posted by JohnLA on January 17, 2012, at 15:39:36

In reply to good luck man, posted by Christ_empowered on January 11, 2012, at 21:18:45

thnx CE.

 

Re: the mj project; 1 week in... » JohnLA

Posted by SLS on January 17, 2012, at 17:26:38

In reply to the mj project; 1 week in..., posted by JohnLA on January 17, 2012, at 14:53:23

It is good that you are journaling your experience with your treatment. It might be easier to isolate the variables that you are working with. Of course, it is also valuable to the PB community to learn from.

Good luck.


- Scott

 

Re: the mj project; 1 week in...

Posted by sigismund on January 18, 2012, at 18:07:57

In reply to Re: the mj project; 1 week in... » JohnLA, posted by SLS on January 17, 2012, at 17:26:38

Some time ago on youtube I saw a clip of a British researcher. She was given injections of THC and cannabinoids seperately. She had to complete a questionaire abbout her mood, both before and after each injection.

The cannabiniod was all good. She was so amused that she had trouble finishing the questionaire. But with the THC she immediately looked grave and said that she felt like someone had just died. She was very stable and no nonsense, as far as I could see.

 

Re: the mj project; 1 week in... » sigismund

Posted by sigismund on January 18, 2012, at 18:10:52

In reply to Re: the mj project; 1 week in..., posted by sigismund on January 18, 2012, at 18:07:57

>both before and after

both during and after

 

mj experiment is over...

Posted by JohnLA on January 24, 2012, at 20:46:41

In reply to Re: med change to marijuana? » JohnLA, posted by phidippus on January 15, 2012, at 18:14:51

i miss getting stoned a bit and dancing and making love...

i never smoked a lot, maybe once or twice a month. i do not drink because of my allergies; i am actually allergic to alcohol, like 25% of the japanese population i am told. (i'm a white dude.)

why do i say all of this? well, my experience the last few weeks w/medicinal weed was mixed in regards to it's success in treating my depression/anxiety.

the good; i slept well on much less klonopin.

the bad; i felt really out of it. over-drugged simply. i'm on remeron and klonopin and adding the weed left me 'hung-over' the next day. i tried some very 'lite' strains.

if i was off the other meds and was willing to put in the time to try the dozens of strains maybe it would be a different story.

the whole experience about getting the med card and going to a dispensary was quite a trip. if anyone is interested, just let me know and i can relate that story.

having said all this, i still think that there is a place for medicinal mj. i'd like to see it prescribed from a pharmacy though. the place i went to was run by very young people w/no medical background at all.

so, bummer for now.

john

 

Re: mj experiment is over... » JohnLA

Posted by SLS on January 24, 2012, at 23:37:42

In reply to mj experiment is over..., posted by JohnLA on January 24, 2012, at 20:46:41

Thank you for your valuable reporting.


- Scott


> i miss getting stoned a bit and dancing and making love...
>
> i never smoked a lot, maybe once or twice a month. i do not drink because of my allergies; i am actually allergic to alcohol, like 25% of the japanese population i am told. (i'm a white dude.)
>
> why do i say all of this? well, my experience the last few weeks w/medicinal weed was mixed in regards to it's success in treating my depression/anxiety.
>
> the good; i slept well on much less klonopin.
>
> the bad; i felt really out of it. over-drugged simply. i'm on remeron and klonopin and adding the weed left me 'hung-over' the next day. i tried some very 'lite' strains.
>
> if i was off the other meds and was willing to put in the time to try the dozens of strains maybe it would be a different story.
>
> the whole experience about getting the med card and going to a dispensary was quite a trip. if anyone is interested, just let me know and i can relate that story.
>
> having said all this, i still think that there is a place for medicinal mj. i'd like to see it prescribed from a pharmacy though. the place i went to was run by very young people w/no medical background at all.
>
> so, bummer for now.
>
> john
>
>


This is the end of the thread.


Show another thread

URL of post in thread:


Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ


[dr. bob] Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD, bob@dr-bob.org

Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.