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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Roslynn on June 24, 2009, at 15:39:01
Hi all,
I had a pdoc tell me ECT is "neuroprotective."
Anyone ever heard that?How could such a thing be measured?
Thanks for any insight.
Roslynn
Posted by morganpmiller on June 24, 2009, at 15:43:23
In reply to Is ECT neuroprotective?, posted by Roslynn on June 24, 2009, at 15:39:01
You'll get a lot of hits on this one..There is no evidence that ECT is neuroprotective. I guess if there were no potential harmful effects, maybe it could be argued that ECT is neuroprotective in the same way that some mood stabilizers and antidepressants are.
I can't believe a p doc told you that..Amazing
Posted by Sigismund on June 24, 2009, at 16:25:42
In reply to Is ECT neuroprotective?, posted by Roslynn on June 24, 2009, at 15:39:01
>I had a pdoc tell me ECT is "neuroprotective."
I know nothing specifically about it, but naturally I assume that it says more about what psychdrs think of their patients than it does about ECT.
Posted by Sigismund on June 24, 2009, at 16:36:48
In reply to Re: Is ECT neuroprotective?, posted by Sigismund on June 24, 2009, at 16:25:42
>>I had a pdoc tell me ECT is "neuroprotective."
That's when you say 'Dilaudid is too. Can I have that as well?'
Posted by bleauberry on June 24, 2009, at 19:03:42
In reply to Is ECT neuroprotective?, posted by Roslynn on June 24, 2009, at 15:39:01
> Hi all,
>
> I had a pdoc tell me ECT is "neuroprotective."
> Anyone ever heard that?
It makes me wonder whether the side effects of ECT are not only on the patients memory, but also on the critical faculties of the clinician giving it.
> How could such a thing be measured?About the same way you would measure a grenade blast.
>
> Thanks for any insight.
>
> RoslynnDid this pdoc mention prescribing an antipsychotic? Not for you, for himself.
I always welcome second opinions.
I guess if you call short term memory loss that may or may not ever return, longterm memory loss that is wiped out forever, chunks of life obliterated from history, word retrieval difficulty, name recall difficulty, slowed mathematical funciton, and slowed cognition function...if all these things are called neuroprotective, then yes, he is correct.
Ask him to try it on himself and let us all know how it goes.
Posted by Phillipa on June 24, 2009, at 19:39:58
In reply to Re: Is ECT neuroprotective?, posted by bleauberry on June 24, 2009, at 19:03:42
Great thread further up the board on ECT. Doesn't sound good to me. Take a look. Phillipa
Posted by linkadge on June 24, 2009, at 21:05:08
In reply to Re: Is ECT neuroprotective?, posted by Phillipa on June 24, 2009, at 19:39:58
It is definately *not* neuroprotective in general. With epilepsy, there is a strong desire to reduce the incidence of seizures on account of the fact that seizures distroy brain tissue. It is the same thing with ECT.
What your doctor is probably referring to is the fact that when you shock the brain, it starts to release powerful molecules (I.e. GFAP, HSP, BDNF, GABA) in attempts to protect itself from further damage. The induction of these chemicals does have some neuroprotective effect against further insult. But the fact still remains that the brain is releasing the compounds to try and protect itself.
It is wishful thinking to suggest that ECT is good for the brain. I think some doctors try and convince themselves of this so that they can deliver ECT with a clear conscience.
Posted by Roslynn on June 25, 2009, at 15:46:43
In reply to Is ECT neuroprotective?, posted by Roslynn on June 24, 2009, at 15:39:01
Thanks all for your replies.
I wasn't considering ECT, I just was really surprised when I heard this from a doc.
Posted by chumbawumba on June 25, 2009, at 19:32:01
In reply to Is ECT neuroprotective?, posted by Roslynn on June 24, 2009, at 15:39:01
Seems a little counter intuitive that running electricity through your head could be neuroprotective. Methinks said physician doesn't know WTF they are talking about.
On the other hand maybe I could market a do it yourself ECT kit on late night TV and market it as neuroprotective self improvement. I'd hire the same guy who does the Sham WOW! commercials. All I'd need is a wall outlet plug with split wires and sponges attached to the two ends. Only $19.95, call now, operators are standing by.
Posted by ihatedrugs on October 5, 2011, at 17:03:51
In reply to Re: Is ECT neuroprotective?, posted by chumbawumba on June 25, 2009, at 19:32:01
I was talking to my pdr. and he told me that ECT is in fact neuroprotective. He explained about the release of certain hormones that protect the brain. However, I'm still skeptical.
Posted by 49er on October 6, 2011, at 9:50:06
In reply to Re: Is ECT neuroprotective?, posted by ihatedrugs on October 5, 2011, at 17:03:51
> I was talking to my pdr. and he told me that ECT is in fact neuroprotective. He explained about the release of certain hormones that protect the brain. However, I'm still skeptical.
Ask him for a link to a study by someone who doesn't have a conflict of interest and see what he says.
In my humble opinion, ECT is about as neuroprotective as rat poisoning is.
And before anyone flames me, this isn't about being pro psychiatry vs. antipsychiatry.
This is about basic common sense.
49er
Posted by SLS on October 6, 2011, at 10:07:42
In reply to Re: Is ECT neuroprotective? » ihatedrugs, posted by 49er on October 6, 2011, at 9:50:06
> > I was talking to my pdr. and he told me that ECT is in fact neuroprotective. He explained about the release of certain hormones that protect the brain. However, I'm still skeptical.
>
> Ask him for a link to a study by someone who doesn't have a conflict of interest and see what he says.
>
> In my humble opinion, ECT is about as neuroprotective as rat poisoning is.
>
> And before anyone flames me, this isn't about being pro psychiatry vs. antipsychiatry.
>
> This is about basic common sense.
Actually, there might be a medical basis for ECT being neuroprotective. It could be an effect related to the many peptides - BDNF for example - that are released as a result of treatment. However, this might be negligible compared to any adverse events that occur. That's my guess anyway. In any event, I am still afraid to undergo treatments again.
- Scott
Posted by 49er on October 6, 2011, at 11:31:43
In reply to Re: Is ECT neuroprotective? » 49er, posted by SLS on October 6, 2011, at 10:07:42
Scott,
Linkage, in a previous post, hit the nail on the head, with this point:
"What your doctor is probably referring to is the fact that when you shock the brain, it starts to release powerful molecules (I.e. GFAP, HSP, BDNF, GABA) in attempts to protect itself from further damage. The induction of these chemicals does have some neuroprotective effect against further insult. But the fact still remains that the brain is releasing the compounds to try and protect itself. ""
That is probably what you're thinking regarding BDNF. But for that doctor to imply that because of this action, that ECT is neuroprotective is outright false.
49er
Posted by ihatedrugs on October 8, 2011, at 3:02:46
In reply to Re: Is ECT neuroprotective? » SLS, posted by 49er on October 6, 2011, at 11:31:43
ECT is associated with neuroplasticity effects in the hippocampus. It stimulates neurogenesis in the dentate gyrus, and synaptogenesis in the CA1 area. Perforated and nonperforated spine synapses are both increased, as is synaptic height; these changes indicate greater synaptic efficiency.
http://www.cwcsit.com/new/article-description.php?tid=87&&article_id=94
Posted by 49er on October 8, 2011, at 10:21:44
In reply to Ect And Neuroplasticity: Increased Hippocampal Syn, posted by ihatedrugs on October 8, 2011, at 3:02:46
> ECT is associated with neuroplasticity effects in the hippocampus. It stimulates neurogenesis in the dentate gyrus, and synaptogenesis in the CA1 area. Perforated and nonperforated spine synapses are both increased, as is synaptic height; these changes indicate greater synaptic efficiency.
>
> http://www.cwcsit.com/new/article-description.php?tid=87&&article_id=94
>
>
This is an animal study. In my opinion, many times what occurs in animal studies doesn't work out in actual human ones.49er
Posted by SLS on October 8, 2011, at 12:01:48
In reply to Re: Ect And Neuroplasticity: Increased Hippocampal Syn » ihatedrugs, posted by 49er on October 8, 2011, at 10:21:44
> > ECT is associated with neuroplasticity effects in the hippocampus. It stimulates neurogenesis in the dentate gyrus, and synaptogenesis in the CA1 area. Perforated and nonperforated spine synapses are both increased, as is synaptic height; these changes indicate greater synaptic efficiency.
> >
> > http://www.cwcsit.com/new/article-description.php?tid=87&&article_id=94
> >
> >
> This is an animal study. In my opinion, many times what occurs in animal studies doesn't work out in actual human ones.In this case, it does. However, that ECT has this potential doesn't make it the best choice of treatments for most people. ECT is neither all good nor all bad. It works for some people.
- Scott
Posted by 49er on October 8, 2011, at 13:08:27
In reply to Re: Ect And Neuroplasticity: Increased Hippocampal Syn » 49er, posted by SLS on October 8, 2011, at 12:01:48
> > > ECT is associated with neuroplasticity effects in the hippocampus. It stimulates neurogenesis in the dentate gyrus, and synaptogenesis in the CA1 area. Perforated and nonperforated spine synapses are both increased, as is synaptic height; these changes indicate greater synaptic efficiency.
49er - "This is an animal study. In my opinion, many times what ccurs in animal studies doesn't work out in actual human ones."
SLS - In this case, it does. However, that ECT has this potential doesn't make it the best choice of treatments for most people. ECT is neither all good nor all bad. It works for some people."
How so? Do you have a link to an unbiased study that shows that ECT is neuroprotective long term in humans?
What about Linkage's great point that what appears to be neuroprotection is the brain releasing chemicals to protect itself against insult and trauma?
I don't doubt that ECT works for some people although I am sure we disagree on the percentages. But there is no information on long term results which is key.
Posted by SLS on October 8, 2011, at 14:34:03
In reply to Re: Ect And Neuroplasticity: Increased Hippocampal Syn » SLS, posted by 49er on October 8, 2011, at 13:08:27
> How so? Do you have a link to an unbiased study that shows that ECT is neuroprotective long term in humans?
Yes.
Try Google. Gotta go now...
- Scott
Posted by SLS on October 8, 2011, at 18:34:58
In reply to Re: Ect And Neuroplasticity: Increased Hippocampal Syn » 49er, posted by SLS on October 8, 2011, at 14:34:03
> > How so? Do you have a link to an unbiased study that shows that ECT is neuroprotective long term in humans?
> Yes.
>
> Try Google. Gotta go now...
I'm back.I apologize for the terse post.
In following up, I could not find on Google anything that demonstrated an effect of ECT on human hippocampal neurogenesis. I guess none yet exist. Rats.
- Scott
Posted by 49er on October 9, 2011, at 5:49:28
In reply to Re: Ect And Neuroplasticity: Increased Hippocampal Syn » SLS, posted by SLS on October 8, 2011, at 18:34:58
> I apologize for the terse post.
>
> In following up, I could not find on Google anything that demonstrated an effect of ECT on human hippocampal neurogenesis. I guess none yet exist. Rats.
>No problem and thanks for following up. I didn't find anything either.
49er
Posted by EERR11CC on October 9, 2011, at 20:53:43
In reply to Re: Is ECT neuroprotective?, posted by ihatedrugs on October 5, 2011, at 17:03:51
Wrecked havoc with my short term memory after two separate sessions of approx. 5 seizures. I once read about a medication that could reverse this side effect.
Posted by 49er on October 10, 2011, at 6:08:28
In reply to Is ECT neuroprotective?, posted by EERR11CC on October 9, 2011, at 20:53:43
> Wrecked havoc with my short term memory after two separate sessions of approx. 5 seizures. I once read about a medication that could reverse this side effect.
I am so sorry to hear that.
Personally, I would be leery that any med could reverse the side effect. But obviously, you have to do what you feel is best for you.
49er
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