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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by jono_in_adelaide on August 27, 2011, at 18:55:06
In reply to Valium users, I need input, posted by floatingbridge on August 27, 2011, at 12:37:14
Somthing else to consider might be rotating sleep meds, if you're going to need a hypnotic long term...... for example, taking (for example) flurazepam and doxepin alternatly, so the body doesnt build up a tolorance to either of them
Posted by Phillipa on August 27, 2011, at 20:13:34
In reply to Valium users, I need input, posted by floatingbridge on August 27, 2011, at 12:37:14
FB we are similar on this as valium always relaxed me also muscles and slept great on it. And yes you will be able to lower the xanax. That of course is my personal experience only Love Phillipa
Posted by Christ_empowered on August 27, 2011, at 20:36:10
In reply to Re: Valium users, I need input » floatingbridge, posted by Phillipa on August 27, 2011, at 20:13:34
I think you should ask your doc to go old school and request chloral hydrate.
Posted by jono_in_adelaide on August 28, 2011, at 6:58:14
In reply to Re: Valium users, I need input, posted by Christ_empowered on August 27, 2011, at 20:36:10
Tolorance to the hypnotic effect of chloral has been reported to be rapid 9within 2 weeks) where as with benzos this is much less the case
Posted by floatingbridge on August 28, 2011, at 9:39:44
In reply to Re: Valium users, I need input, posted by jono_in_adelaide on August 27, 2011, at 18:55:06
Doxipen was a disaster, no sleep, just drugged senseless unfotunately :-/,
.
Truly, I am sorry to have something crummy about everyone's suggestion. I'd rather not be fussy about this. Really.I took 45mg to sleep lat night of the tezanepam. And feel very, very doped today, but not depressed. Still, that is not as prescribed.
So tomorrow is Monday. I have mt doc's number on speed dial :-( and will reveal my overusgae.
You suggestion to abadon this class might just have to come to pass. Oddly, the anixolyc effects remain in place with benzos, but the hypnotic affect has vanished.
Know anything about prazosin?
Posted by Sailboat77 on August 28, 2011, at 18:45:39
In reply to Re: Valium users, I need input » jono_in_adelaide, posted by floatingbridge on August 28, 2011, at 9:39:44
You might remember from when I last posted maybe 3 months ago (sorry, I've been gone for a while), but Seroquel has been the only medication to provide me with quality sleep. I'm on 60mg's of Parnate and am unable to fall asleep at all without any medication.
I didn't like the idea of taking Seroquel for sleep because it's primarily used as an antipsychotic and I didn't want it to interfere with my mood or current medical regiment. But at doses lower than 200mg's, it's been shown to have no effect on a person's mood or depression.
It's the best sleep aid I've ever taken and I've tried many (Lunesta, Restoril, Xanax, ect.) The good thing about it is that unlike benzos, you don't become tolerant. But as everyone here probably knows, what works for one person doesn't always work for another.
I hope you find what your looking for and find a sense of contentment in the process.
-Best of luck
Posted by hyperfocus on August 28, 2011, at 20:09:53
In reply to Valium users, I need input, posted by floatingbridge on August 27, 2011, at 12:37:14
Years back lorazepam got me to sleep, eventually. But withdrawing was hellacious. I'm not a fan of benzos for sleep. It seems to me that they don't promote deep restful sleep. It's like they get you drowsy and relaxed and maybe you might nod off but it's a real hit-or-miss thing.
Sleep is a large factor of your quality of life. What about non-med alternatives? What characterizes your insomnia - is it runaway negative thoughts? Or too much stimulation? Could you describe like a typical night of no sleep - what are your thought patterns like?
For me it was like I couldn't get my brain to shut off the tragic murderous soap opera that was my life. non-med things that helped: jogging, aromatherapy, music. You might find meditation or yoga or tai-chi beneficial.
But if you're going the med route I think something like seroquel or risperidone before bed could work. Risperdal is like #2 behind amitriptyline on my fav sleep meds list. Sulpiride is #3.
Posted by floatingbridge on August 28, 2011, at 22:15:46
In reply to Re: alternatives » floatingbridge, posted by hyperfocus on August 28, 2011, at 20:09:53
HP,
It's different now. I have not much problem with sleep onset; it's staying asleep for more than two-three hours that's the difficulty. When younger, it was racing thoughts and onset, then 12+ hours of sack time.
Now, exhausted and trancelike, but no sleep or very little.
Benzos are not great for sleep. They wreck the archetecture. But for my psyche, it beats no sleep. I can get delirious.
Doc will not script ami with Emsam. I asked three times.I would have to do a 14 day wash. Not stable enough yet.
Risperdone helps. Took .5mg last night but awake at 1:30. Fell back asleep around 4:00.
How much Risperdone do you take at night? Maybe it's in your signature.
Sulphride is not FDA approved. I'd need to go rogue in order to use. Not up for that.
Pdoc talking up saphris. Any experience with that?
In the future, my line up might be lamictal, amitriptyline, risperdone like substance.
You know about invega? The son of risperdone?
Always good to see your posts. Thanks.
fb
Posted by jono_in_adelaide on August 28, 2011, at 22:34:15
In reply to Re: alternatives » hyperfocus, posted by floatingbridge on August 28, 2011, at 22:15:46
You could ask your doc about chloral, but as tolorance develops quite quickly (in around 2 weeks) you'd probably want to use it only on alternate nights, it might be worth a short trial?
Posted by floatingbridge on August 28, 2011, at 23:04:13
In reply to Re: alternatives, posted by jono_in_adelaide on August 28, 2011, at 22:34:15
> You could ask your doc about chloral, but as tolorance develops quite quickly (in around 2 weeks) you'd probably want to use it only on alternate nights, it might be worth a short trial?
Hi Jono, I can run it by him. I don't know. I thought it was somehow related to alcohol?
I'm still thinking benzo short term, but that might not work, or an increase in risperdone. I feel like I've got too many meds piling up :-/
But i'llput it on my list. Thank you.
Posted by Phillipa on August 28, 2011, at 23:52:01
In reply to Re: alternatives, posted by floatingbridge on August 28, 2011, at 23:04:13
Chloral hydrate took a few years due to the taste as not pill form anymore I often wonder if it was responsible ultimatedly for my loss of taste so bitter. It was magic for over a year at 5cc. Doubt anyone uses here anymore. Love Phillipa
Posted by jono_in_adelaide on August 29, 2011, at 18:40:06
In reply to Re: alternatives, posted by floatingbridge on August 28, 2011, at 23:04:13
I guess flurazepam is your next port of call..... maybe in a higher dose, 30-60mg at night?
I would definatly try that before chloral hydrate (yes, it is related to alcohol..... chloral hydrate is metabolised in the body to trichloroethanol)
If you're taking a high dose of flurazepam at night, its likely you will be able to reduce or stop your Xanax during the day, which would be nice.
Best of luck!
Posted by morgan miller on August 29, 2011, at 20:58:10
In reply to Re: Valium users, I need input » sigismund, posted by floatingbridge on August 27, 2011, at 15:52:15
Hey FB,
I can't remember, have you taken Depakote before? Is so, do you remember how much and for how long?
What's holding you back from taking lithium right now?
I strongly believe that taking mood stabilizers and possibly a very low dose of an SSRI-Zoloft or Lexapro-could be beneficial in the long run. No miracles in the short run, but if you stick with the regimen for a while, tweak the dosages to find your sweet spots(hopefully you have some), and take some supportive supplements, eventually you may find yourself feeling better. You may also begin to have the strength to start making drastic changes in your diet-like going primal-and engaging in proper exercise, both of which may go a long way to improving your condition and preventing relapse.
Morgan
Posted by floatingbridge on August 29, 2011, at 20:58:37
In reply to Re: alternatives, posted by jono_in_adelaide on August 29, 2011, at 18:40:06
> I guess flurazepam is your next port of call..... maybe in a higher dose, 30-60mg at night?
>
> I would definatly try that before chloral hydrate (yes, it is related to alcohol..... chloral hydrate is metabolised in the body to trichloroethanol)
>
> If you're taking a high dose of flurazepam at night, its likely you will be able to reduce or stop your Xanax during the day, which would be nice.>
> Best of luck!The doc says 45mg of Tenazapam for the next little bit, and to see about cutting or skipping a.m. dose of Xanax. He seems less concerned then myself; but I'm the one who would experience any withdrawal, so I'm concerned (!)
If this doesn't work I'm to call back Wed.
Thanks again.
Posted by Phillipa on August 29, 2011, at 21:23:39
In reply to Re: alternatives » jono_in_adelaide, posted by floatingbridge on August 29, 2011, at 20:58:37
FB let them walk in our shoes and then see what happens I wonder? Love Phillipa
Posted by floatingbridge on August 29, 2011, at 21:39:54
In reply to Re: Valium users, I need input, posted by morgan miller on August 29, 2011, at 20:58:10
> Hey FB,
>
> I can't remember, have you taken Depakote before? Is so, do you remember how much and for how long?
>
> What's holding you back from taking lithium right now?
>
> I strongly believe that taking mood stabilizers and possibly a very low dose of an SSRI-Zoloft or Lexapro-could be
beneficial in the long run. No miracles in the short run, but if
you stick with the regimen for a while, tweak the dosages t
o find your sweet spots(hopefully you have some), and take some supportive supplements, eventually you may find yourself feeling better. You may also begin to have the strength to start making drastic changes in your diet-like
going primal-and engaging in proper exercise, both of which may go a long way to improving your condition and preventing relapses.
>
> MorganHey Morgan, I was wondering how you have been.
I started lamictal today. Bipolar. After going back and forth, I
requested lamictal. After going back and forth my doc agreed on lamictal over lithium so I would be less prone to flattening.The Emsam might be exacerbating my insomnia. We'll have to see. Frankly, I have been more active and eating better.
Added 5-loxin, and looks like a real keeper. I think it's already helping. Piracitam (sp?). Are you still doing that? I go slow, but hope to try that soon.Many herbs seem to disrupt my *sleep* as it used to be called, like cucurim derivatives. I need to go very slow with the supplements. Still doing krill (well restarted) but at a lower dose.
Is a 'primal' diet like a type O blood type diet? Meat and veggies? I'm not too far from that except for my love affair with dairy products.
It's a slow return to living for me right now. But the past few days are better. Even less, way less caffiene. I love my
black tea, though.Depakote was a no-go previuosly. But that was 12 or so years ago. Didn't seem to work. But I did not want to acknowledge the bipolar piece. I know you like the ssri's,
but I'm not sure they are so good for me. Not that benzos are, but that started a long time ago before I knew how insidious they would be for me. Well, Emsam might not be right, so may need an AD of some sort. You don't cycle on zoloft? (That's what you take?)I gotta sleep or I deteriorate within days :-/
Thanks for wishing me luck. Hope you're well enough and still on the mend.
fb
Posted by floatingbridge on August 29, 2011, at 22:05:32
In reply to Re: alternatives » floatingbridge, posted by Phillipa on August 29, 2011, at 21:23:39
> FB let them walk in our shoes and then see what happens I wonder? Love Phillipa
You mean the docs? Yeah. Two in particular I have in mind at the moment :-/
Posted by Phillipa on August 29, 2011, at 22:09:09
In reply to Re: alternatives » Phillipa, posted by floatingbridge on August 29, 2011, at 22:05:32
FB yes the docs and got more than two right now!!! Love Phillipa
Posted by morgan miller on August 29, 2011, at 22:35:20
In reply to Re: Valium users, I need input » morgan miller, posted by floatingbridge on August 29, 2011, at 21:39:54
Hey FB,
I only suggested an SSRI at a very low dose, doses that have been reported to be successful, without some of the unwanted side effects that you've experienced.
I hope lamictal really helps you. Ya know, it is not uncommon to combine a lithium with lamictal, so that is always an option down the road. I don't think a low dose of lithium will cause much in the way of mind numbing.
I'm doing pretty good, far from where I want to be, but doing well enough. I just moved out on my own for the first time in 3 1/2 years, so there is great progress here. Thank you for asking and caring.
By primal I pretty much meant meat and veggies, no heavy carb stuff. Eliminating grains would be a great step toward a dietary regimen that might would enhance health and well being. Gluten is bad stuff. Rice, not so bad, but still kinda bad. Dairy is o.k., especially grassfed, wholefat, and cultured. Nuts, berries/fruits, and eggs are a great addition to a more primal diet.
I look forward to hearing good news about your progress soon!
Morgan
Posted by floatingbridge on August 30, 2011, at 2:25:19
In reply to Re: Valium users, I need input, posted by morgan miller on August 29, 2011, at 22:35:20
Morgan,
What's a low dose of zoloft or lexapro ( that you are speking of)? Lexapro wasn't so bad years ago.....
Congratulations on the new place :-)
I'm glad brown rice is o.k. What about quinoa? Oatmeal? (We have a hand grinder.). I have thought of two tests, celiac and lactose intolerance. Finally, though going to yet another doc is not appealing.
We have chickens. Lots of good, fresh eggs. We'd like to get a milk goat, too.
Is there a book that has guided you in this diet? It's very interesting.
Enjoy your autonomy. That's great news.
fb
Posted by morgan miller on August 30, 2011, at 19:30:25
In reply to Re: Valium users, I need input » morgan miller, posted by floatingbridge on August 30, 2011, at 2:25:19
Hey FB,
A low dose of Zoloft would be 12.5 or 25 mg, and Lexapro would be 2.5 mg.
Brown rice is ok, but I think white might actually be better because it has no phytates, brown rice has lots. Phytates are believed to prevent essential nutrients from being absorbed. Quinoa is fine as a grain substitute.
Mark's Daily Apple and Weston A. Price are great sites to go to for information on a more primal diet-especially MDA. Mark of MDA wrote a goobook called The Primal Blueprint-I plan on reading it at some point.
Ya know, lithium has been used along with Lamictal with great success. So, if you still need more improvement after going up to 200 mg of LamictaL, you might want to consider going for a low dose of lithium instead of raising the Lamictal dose. I doubt a low dose of lithium would cause much mind numbing, if any at all.
I would be curious to see how you did on just 100 mg Lamictal for a month. I think it's interesting that your doctor isn't going to try this first. It may be worth asking him/her to do this before making the jump to 150 and 200.
Morgan
Posted by floatingbridge on August 30, 2011, at 20:48:17
In reply to Re: Valium users, I need input, posted by morgan miller on August 30, 2011, at 19:30:25
Thanks Morgan. He hasn't spoken of the higher doses on lamictal yet. Just see if I tolerate it, then see how I do. The starter pack only goes to 100mg. He knows I'm pretty med and sx sensitive, so I'm not too concerned about being pushed too hard.
I'm not too keen on Weston Price, though I won't discount the entire project. I'll check out Mark's Daily Apple.
Thanks for the dose information. I probably would prefer lexapro. I did o.k. on that, back in the day. Are you still taking one?
Posted by morgan miller on August 30, 2011, at 21:07:11
In reply to Re: Valium users, I need input » morgan miller, posted by floatingbridge on August 30, 2011, at 20:48:17
Just curious, what is it you don't like about Weston A. Price?
I am currently taking 2.5 mg Lexapro, and 25 mg Zoloft. I was taking 100 mg Zoloft and 2.5 Lexapro, but I decided to try just 25 mg Zoloft for now. I may go back up to 100 mg Zoloft and drop Lexapro completely for a while to see what happens.
I also take a few lithium orotate a day and 750 mg Depakote.
Morgan
Posted by morgan miller on August 30, 2011, at 21:08:31
In reply to Re: Valium users, I need input, posted by morgan miller on August 30, 2011, at 21:07:11
Do you like how the regimen I recommended is similar to mine? : ) The one exception to it being the higher doses of SSRIs.
Posted by floatingbridge on August 30, 2011, at 21:27:23
In reply to Re: Valium users, I need input, posted by morgan miller on August 30, 2011, at 21:08:31
> Do you like how the regimen I recommended is similar to mine? : ) The one exception to it being the higher doses of SSRIs.
:-). Yes. I thought that's what most of us do. I do. But your advice is pretty good, but maybe that's just cause it seems sensible. Plus, heck, it seems to be working for you. That's the best advertisement.
Weston Price. Something about his theory of certain races
having the best teeth. I can't quite remember, but I came away with some kind of cultural evolution theory of some races being better than others based on some subjective thinking. Plus, the man is into fat galore! I am not a fat phobe by any means and make sure wecall eat eggs, whole milk, butter. He seemed over the top. Plus some of his studies lacked scientific backing. This was about three years ago.Then again, he had the idea of bone broth and trace minerals (didn't he?) which seems very sound. A very mixed bag. Plus there is a cult of followers where I live, and they can be very judgmental, like everything can be cured if you eat this butter gold stuff. So there's my haphazard context for Weston Price. But I say, if the dietary practices work for someone, use them.
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