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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by uncouth on July 4, 2011, at 16:18:21
hi,
i'm not feeling to good today. last few days have been up and down but i don' thave anything positive to look forward to in my life, and everytime i log on the internet and read technology news i have to see one of my friends doing well, someone i know or used to work with starting a company, people just generally doing rock-star things. and i've been in a horrible state running on 4 years now with intermittant suicidality and intermittant wellness.i have a question. i read somewhere that some form of depression is typified by rejection sensitivity. i forgot and could research this myself but i'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts on the subject. seems like even the smallest things and forms of rejection really hurt me, for days afterwards. even if they are legit, like someone i was supposed to do something with got sick. but more often then not its real stuff, like texting with someone to set up tennis, then they don't respond and blow me off. it hurts, and i know it's partially because my depression has caused me to withdraw and be a sad sack at times, but god damnit even when I TRY i don't get anything out of it, and it's just more disappointment.
anyway. someone talk about rejection sensitivity. any drugs particularly good for that? i know Nardil is good for social anxiety, but not sure if that hits the same thing. i popped a few ibuprofen to see if that would help with the pain i'm feeling today.
i'm 15 days without a cigarette (using the patch) but god damnit i really want to smoke a whole pack right now, i can't even describe it. the cravings are worse now than they were when I originally quit!
and any tips on how I can somehow (cognitively or otherwise) deal with this feeling of worthlessness, envy, regret at my bad choices, and despair everytime i turn on my computer and read tech news?
holidays are the pits man.
over and out.
uncouth
Posted by floatingbridge on July 5, 2011, at 2:17:21
In reply to Rejection sensitivity and a ramble..., posted by uncouth on July 4, 2011, at 16:18:21
Hi uncouth, at my age, the rockstars have fat retirement pensions and vacatioun houses :-/ Writers I used to know publishing books. I become more reclusive. Envy used to be real big with me. Not really about outhers having less, but being capable too. It's cr*py to watch.
I'd like to hear about rejection sensitivity from others too. I do have social phobia m/anxiety disorder and don't know what the theories on rejection sensitivity. In childhood I felt a burning flush and deep mortification many a time, even in fun, casual settings.
What is rejection sensitivity?
Sorry to hear this is such a long rough time for you.
fb
Posted by Phillipa on July 5, 2011, at 10:32:57
In reply to Re: Rejection sensitivity and a ramble... » uncouth, posted by floatingbridge on July 5, 2011, at 2:17:21
Good question. I'd also like to know. Phillipa
Posted by floatingbridge on July 5, 2011, at 11:19:59
In reply to Rejection sensitivity and a ramble..., posted by uncouth on July 4, 2011, at 16:18:21
Uncouth,
Thinking about your post. I don't know. I had to stop looking up my peers' accomplishments for awhile. It was too painful, and I felt like I was further torturing myself. I'm not saying avoidance is sound advice or anything. But for me, not logging into who was doing what in publishing, etc was an act of self-mercy or self-defense. I would think that would be more difficult with the tech world because it is news and finance rolled together.
I felt like my first post was too light. I'm sorry if it came off that way.
Maybe, until someone posts about rejection sensitivity, if you wouldn't mind, you could post your current treatment. If that would be helpful for you.
Posted by deepreason on July 5, 2011, at 13:19:19
In reply to Rejection sensitivity and a ramble..., posted by uncouth on July 4, 2011, at 16:18:21
Rejection sensitivity is one of the signs of Atypical Depression. The best known class of meds for dealing with atypical depression are the MAOI's.
Posted by sigismund on July 5, 2011, at 14:48:30
In reply to Rejection sensitivity and a ramble..., posted by uncouth on July 4, 2011, at 16:18:21
>and any tips on how I can somehow (cognitively or otherwise) deal with this feeling of worthlessness, envy, regret at my bad choices, and despair
I am very interested in how to handle envy, but naturally have few ideas, beyond acceptance and observation.
The envious position tends to see rock star lives, but some lives are better than others, without a doubt.
Bad choices are easy. You resolve never to make the same mistake again, and you are merciful to yourself. And I suppose you could be merciful to yourself if you made the mistake of not being so, and so on.
One doctor, sensibly (if not helpfully) enough said to me 'Why don't you just drop it?'
To which I should have said 'Because I can't let go of the fact that you give me the sh*ts'.
Posted by sigismund on July 5, 2011, at 14:56:21
In reply to Re: Rejection sensitivity and a ramble... » uncouth, posted by floatingbridge on July 5, 2011, at 2:17:21
> I felt a burning flush and deep mortification many a time, even in fun, casual settings.
I find it useful in social interaction to ask myself how I would feel if I made the same mistake as someone who has just made one.
The answer is normally that I would be mortified.
It is so very interesting, how someone can feel such strong feelings in normal life.
Lack of acceptance in childhood?
That's one of the fun things about history. Killing tens of millions of people is a mistake. This settles me down a bit about my own.
Posted by joe schmoe on July 8, 2011, at 13:55:38
In reply to Re: Rejection sensitivity and a ramble..., posted by sigismund on July 5, 2011, at 14:56:21
I have always had rejection sensitivity, which used to just be known as "being sensitive." I also developed atypical depression and social anxiety as I became an adult, so it fits the pattern.
I have an amateur interest in evolutionary biology and have read about why some of these seemingly maladaptive traits might have evolved. The answer appears to be that humans needed to be in groups to survive, and it was very important not to be oblivious to the feelings of the group toward yourself and your behavior. Rejection sensitivity ("I feel bad when others disapprove of me") is a survival mechanism to make sure you don't act in ways that could get you thrown out of the cave-man group that you rely on for survival. The guy who doesn't care what others think of him, is the one likely to be left for the lions when he breaks his leg on the hunt, instead of being carried home and cared for.
Same thing with social anxiety - it keeps you from trying to act above your social station, which can quickly get you in trouble. (A memorable example is the peasant in James Clavell's "Shogun" who didn't bow his head quickly enough to a samurai, and was instantly beheaded for his insolence.) If you're a beta male, feel and act like a beta male, and people will not see you as a threat. Try to act more important than you are, and you may find the alpha male now sees you as a problem to be dealt with.
This is an explanation I have read about as to why so many men are intimidated by pretty women. Subconsciously they seem themselves as too low on the social scale to have access to such women, and feel an ancient fear when they think about approaching one - which is not fear of the woman, it's actually fear of a reaction from the dominant males to such an action. Obviously this applies to males - females are in a different situation. I would be interested in hearing about why females would benefit evolutionarily from social anxiety.
Genetic studies have shown that only 40% of males in history have reproduced, while 80% of females have. (Think polygamy/harems/serial monogamy by successful males.) To reproduce as a male has generally required being above average in some way. This results in two strategies - the rock stars who try to be exceptional, and the betas who keep their eyes down and hope the rock stars get eaten by lions, that their exploration ship sinks, that they freeze to death on their polar expedition, etc. leaving the females for the beta survivors to mate with. Both strategies work, as evidenced by the fact both genotypes are still around.
We happen to live in a modern, lionless society where there is little real risk for the rock stars, so being aggressive, extroverted, a risk-taker, self-confident, driven etc. pays enormous rewards, much more so than in most of our past, where such personalities tended to take on dangerous tasks and often get killed. It's a bad time to be sensitive. The main benefit of being timid nowadays is it tends to keep you out of jail - jail now being the main risk that fearless impulsive people face, instead of wild animals or dangerous environmental conditions like the sea.
In terms of envy - it is a tough one, but my rule is "don't be jealous of someone unless you would trade lives with them." By lives I mean entire lives - your interests, relatives, friends, memories, looks, attitudes, politics, knowledge - everything. There are a lot of successful people, but few if any that I would really want to be instead of myself.
On the positive side, at least now there are medical options that there weren't in the past, and terms like "anxiety disorder" are starting to become more common, whereas in, say, the 1930s, the term "coward" would have been used instead. Fearless extroverts still get all the rewards (and the jail time too, don't forget) but I think things are better for sensitive people than they were 50 years ago. Having social anxiety in the 1950s must have been a living hell. Maybe that explains the "martini at lunch" culture - sensitive people trying to use alcohol to get through the stressful workday.
100 years ago you could probably spend your life farming and never have to deal with people, but those days are gone....this is the era of "people skills" and "people persons" and a job environment where almost everyone working above minimum wage is expected to give presentations and other public speaking engagements. For years I carried xanax and inderal in my pocket at all times in case I was called on at short notice to give a talk, tour, etc at work.
Now I just take klonopin, an ssri, and avoid confrontational situations and jobs, and try to play the hand I'm dealt. Yeah, I'll never be rich. But I don't know any rich people I'd trade lives with, either.
Posted by desolationrower on July 8, 2011, at 22:52:08
In reply to Re: Rejection sensitivity and a ramble..., posted by sigismund on July 5, 2011, at 14:56:21
i like meditation, and maois
-d/r
Posted by jedi on July 10, 2011, at 2:31:10
In reply to Re: Rejection sensitivity and a ramble..., posted by joe schmoe on July 8, 2011, at 13:55:38
Joe,
As another who has suffered with rejection sensitivity since my teenage years, followed by social anxiety and atypical depression; I find your evolutionary perspective very interesting. In high school, I was too chicken sh*t to ask any girl out, much less the beautiful ones. I think I was a tough case, and still feel very uncomfortable with negative feedback; despite phenelzine, clonazepam and years of positive programming. Oh well. And my genes have passed on, another generation!
Be Well,
Jedi
> I have always had rejection sensitivity, which used to just be known as "being sensitive." I also developed atypical depression and social anxiety as I became an adult, so it fits the pattern.
>
> I have an amateur interest in evolutionary biology and have read about why some of these seemingly maladaptive traits might have evolved. The answer appears to be that humans needed to be in groups to survive, and it was very important not to be oblivious to the feelings of the group toward yourself and your behavior. Rejection sensitivity ("I feel bad when others disapprove of me") is a survival mechanism to make sure you don't act in ways that could get you thrown out of the cave-man group that you rely on for survival. The guy who doesn't care what others think of him, is the one likely to be left for the lions when he breaks his leg on the hunt, instead of being carried home and cared for.
>
> Same thing with social anxiety - it keeps you from trying to act above your social station, which can quickly get you in trouble. (A memorable example is the peasant in James Clavell's "Shogun" who didn't bow his head quickly enough to a samurai, and was instantly beheaded for his insolence.) If you're a beta male, feel and act like a beta male, and people will not see you as a threat. Try to act more important than you are, and you may find the alpha male now sees you as a problem to be dealt with.
>
> This is an explanation I have read about as to why so many men are intimidated by pretty women. Subconsciously they seem themselves as too low on the social scale to have access to such women, and feel an ancient fear when they think about approaching one - which is not fear of the woman, it's actually fear of a reaction from the dominant males to such an action. Obviously this applies to males - females are in a different situation. I would be interested in hearing about why females would benefit evolutionarily from social anxiety.
>
> Genetic studies have shown that only 40% of males in history have reproduced, while 80% of females have. (Think polygamy/harems/serial monogamy by successful males.) To reproduce as a male has generally required being above average in some way. This results in two strategies - the rock stars who try to be exceptional, and the betas who keep their eyes down and hope the rock stars get eaten by lions, that their exploration ship sinks, that they freeze to death on their polar expedition, etc. leaving the females for the beta survivors to mate with. Both strategies work, as evidenced by the fact both genotypes are still around.
>
> We happen to live in a modern, lionless society where there is little real risk for the rock stars, so being aggressive, extroverted, a risk-taker, self-confident, driven etc. pays enormous rewards, much more so than in most of our past, where such personalities tended to take on dangerous tasks and often get killed. It's a bad time to be sensitive. The main benefit of being timid nowadays is it tends to keep you out of jail - jail now being the main risk that fearless impulsive people face, instead of wild animals or dangerous environmental conditions like the sea.
>
> In terms of envy - it is a tough one, but my rule is "don't be jealous of someone unless you would trade lives with them." By lives I mean entire lives - your interests, relatives, friends, memories, looks, attitudes, politics, knowledge - everything. There are a lot of successful people, but few if any that I would really want to be instead of myself.
>
> On the positive side, at least now there are medical options that there weren't in the past, and terms like "anxiety disorder" are starting to become more common, whereas in, say, the 1930s, the term "coward" would have been used instead. Fearless extroverts still get all the rewards (and the jail time too, don't forget) but I think things are better for sensitive people than they were 50 years ago. Having social anxiety in the 1950s must have been a living hell. Maybe that explains the "martini at lunch" culture - sensitive people trying to use alcohol to get through the stressful workday.
>
> 100 years ago you could probably spend your life farming and never have to deal with people, but those days are gone....this is the era of "people skills" and "people persons" and a job environment where almost everyone working above minimum wage is expected to give presentations and other public speaking engagements. For years I carried xanax and inderal in my pocket at all times in case I was called on at short notice to give a talk, tour, etc at work.
>
> Now I just take klonopin, an ssri, and avoid confrontational situations and jobs, and try to play the hand I'm dealt. Yeah, I'll never be rich. But I don't know any rich people I'd trade lives with, either.
Posted by hyperfocus on July 20, 2011, at 22:07:13
In reply to Re: Rejection sensitivity and a ramble... » joe schmoe, posted by jedi on July 10, 2011, at 2:31:10
It's quite possible rejection sensitivity developed as you said, but humans are always moving forward. We're not in packs anymore with alpha and beta castes fighting over food and mates. People with rejection sensitivity a lot of times are overly sensitive in every other way. They become artists, writers, musicians...there are a lot of ways to channel that sensitivity in the modern world. And there are a lot of beautiful women who are attracted to that sensitivity.
One thing I always notice is that people who are very (or pathologically) shy don't realize that all most decent girls want is another decent person. You don't have to be a rock star or pro athlete or millionaire to date most girls. The females who chase after these two types aren't worth being with in the first place. It's the same thing with shy girls - you don't have to be Megan Fox to get a guy who loves you.
This is the end of the thread.
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