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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 15 to 39 of 39. Go back in thread:
Posted by morgan miller on June 28, 2011, at 12:46:49
In reply to Re: Zyprexa - Reluctant to Take, posted by B2chica on June 28, 2011, at 11:35:42
> jerseygall.
> pristiq usually took 10-12 weeks to kick in for me. so hang in there and augment till then. Time s*cks when you're feeling like crud, but hang on. after a few months if weight gain becomes an issue you can taper off and by then the pristiq should be working well and you may no longer need the zyprexa, decreasing your med regime even more.
> i agree, drop the remeron.
>
>
> about the monkey trial
> that was only shown in monkeys...not humans. also there are contradictory 'results' shown on the internet...google a little more. also that part that it is shown to 'shrink' are allegedly beneficial...
>
> infact i'll start from a post here at dr. bob's.
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20001102/msgs/48761.html
>
>
> i will mention that zyprexa is shown to prevent brain loss in people with schizophrenia.(and believed to improve brain function in those using zyprexa that do not have schizophrenia)
> it effects the white matter (myelin) in the brain. i have read about this online, but only after i was told this by my pdoc.I appreciate any positive study done on psychiatric medications, but in my experience, zyprexa did nothing good for my brain or it's function. I also obsessed more about negative things in the morning and was far more likely to lay in bed a go back to sleep while on zyprexa. I and everyone else I have ever known that took zyprexa both ate more, gained weight, and found it difficult to lose weight.
Any chance you can find that study and post it here? Here is the study on monkey and brain volume shrinkage..
Also, no one has mentioned the possibility of tardive dyskinesia. And, D2 antagonism is not something that you want to do to your brain unless it is absolutely necessary. Antagonizing this receptor comes with several potential side effects like parkinsonism and the often long term and permanent tardive dyskinesia.
Posted by morgan miller on June 28, 2011, at 12:55:26
In reply to Re: Zyprexa - Reluctant to Take, posted by B2chica on June 28, 2011, at 11:35:42
B2Chica, it's my understanding that the brain shrinkage volume might only be a good thing for schizophrenics that have been shown to be more likely to have possibly unhealthy larger than normal volume in areas of the brain that brain shrinkage occurs with antispychotics.
Morgan
Posted by B2chica on June 28, 2011, at 14:22:14
In reply to Re: Zyprexa - Reluctant to Take » B2chica, posted by morgan miller on June 28, 2011, at 12:55:26
that's how i understand it too.
Posted by B2chica on June 28, 2011, at 14:24:57
In reply to Re: Zyprexa - Reluctant to Take, posted by morgan miller on June 28, 2011, at 12:46:49
i actually find it hard to find positive studies on AP's, but i ran across it about a year ago after i talked with my pdoc who mentioned it. i dont recall where it was. if i have time i'll try to find it again.
Most of the 'positive' studies are from big pharma.i totally agree with the ate more.
what it does is affect the part of the brain that makes you feel full. so you dont totally feel satiated and eat more. i personally found that i also seemed to crave more carbs.
however, this was only once i went up to 10mg.I know many many people are anti AP. and i understand that. but jerseygall may only augment for a time and then taper off. She is needing some positive insight and was hoping to help her.
i'm sorry you have had previous bad results.
though there is the possibility of TD with AP, it is significantly lower with the 'newer' atypical AP's like zyprexa.
and in my experience and personal researching i dont think there is ANY psych drug made that i would easily hand out. they all have reported terrible side effects many sounding worse than what they are helping. however, at some point we need to make decisions, and hopefully right ones.
Those of us that are more difficult to treat will ourselves and our docs make many, many wrong ones. Hopefully none of them will do permanent damage. But all drugs do run that risk.I wish you the best and hope that you have found something that works great for you.
Best wishes
b2c.
Posted by morgan miller on June 28, 2011, at 15:14:21
In reply to Re: Zyprexa - Reluctant to Take » morgan miller, posted by B2chica on June 28, 2011, at 14:24:57
Hey B2chica,
I agree in certain cases when all proper trials have failed and suffering is to an extreme that is unbearable where one cannot wait, a trial of something like zyprexa just for 6 months is an o.k. idea.
I respect you trying to find something positive about zyprexa to focus on for jerseygirl, I've done the same with certain medications for others. Unfortunately, at this point in time, I see nothing positive or neuroprotective about taking zyprexa unless you are schizophrenic.
I am doing much better, thank you. I contribute part of my progress to getting off zyprexa and going against the grain of traditional psychiatric establishment in treating my bipolar issues.
I hope you too are finding success in whatever you are doing to improve your life and well being.
Morgan
Posted by B2chica on June 29, 2011, at 12:51:33
In reply to Re: Zyprexa - Reluctant to Take, posted by morgan miller on June 28, 2011, at 15:14:21
Posted by jerseygal1 on June 30, 2011, at 16:26:27
In reply to Zyprexa - Reluctant to Take, posted by jerseygal1 on June 27, 2011, at 9:36:23
I guess I started a good debate on this topic. I would prefer not to take zyprexa but, at this point, I just want something to work already. I've been struggling since May of last year after prozac pooped out on me after 11 good years. Since then, I've tried to augment prozac with abilify, seroquel and wellbutrin (not at same time, of course) which didn't work. Then, I tried lexapro with remeron and that didn't work. Now I'm on pristiq (six weeks) with remeron which hasn't worked yet. At my last visit, my pdoc wasn't very optimistic about pristiq working if it hasn't worked yet. But as many of you say, pristiq can take a while to kick in. My pdoc was ready to change my med yet again, to possibly anafranil, but I asked if we could try to augment pristiq with something first. That's when zyprexa came into the picture. So I guess it really wouldn't do much harm to try it cause if nothing changes in the next 2-3 weeks, I'll probably be facing a med change anyway. Thanks everyone for your input.
Posted by morgan miller on June 30, 2011, at 23:14:42
In reply to Re: Zyprexa - Reluctant to Take, posted by jerseygal1 on June 30, 2011, at 16:26:27
Jerseygirl, when prozac "pooped out" did it completely stop working where you were completely depressed all over again? Or, did you just have a moderate depressive episode on it, but still felt it might be helping some? I guess it's hard to tell if you've been on something for that long and you may not remember exactly what it felt like to be off it. Also, did you end up feeling even worse after getting off Prozac? I guess I'm just wondering if your depression was related to emotional triggers and possibly your depression would have been much much worse without Prozac. I often wonder if we too quickly give up on a drug instead of sticking it out and trying other ways to come out of a depressive episode. Does this make any sense?
Morgan
Posted by jerseygal1 on July 1, 2011, at 9:23:02
In reply to Re: Zyprexa - Reluctant to Take, posted by morgan miller on June 30, 2011, at 23:14:42
After prozac pooped out, my pdoc and I tried everything to get a response out of it again. The dose was increased, we also tried stopping it and restarting it, augmenting, and nothing worked. This was over a period of about 8 months. So we gave it a good try before giving it up. Then we finally moved on to lexapro which also did not work. Yes, the original symptoms of depression returned - lots of anxiety mixed with depression.
Posted by floatingbridge on July 1, 2011, at 9:34:32
In reply to Re: Zyprexa - Reluctant to Take, posted by jerseygal1 on July 1, 2011, at 9:23:02
Good luck this weekend if you go forward.
Posted by jerseygal1 on July 1, 2011, at 15:47:25
In reply to Re: Zyprexa - Reluctant to Take » jerseygal1, posted by floatingbridge on July 1, 2011, at 9:34:32
Thanks floatingbridge, and I did start taking zyprexa last night. I'm supposed to take 2.5 mg for 7 days then increase to 5 mg. I felt pretty terrible this AM - felt kind of out of it if you know what I mean, and a little nauseous. But it seemed to pass by about 1 pm. I actually feel pretty good this afternoon. So we'll see how it goes. Thanks for thinking about me.
Posted by morgan miller on July 2, 2011, at 1:08:24
In reply to Re: Zyprexa - Reluctant to Take, posted by jerseygal1 on July 1, 2011, at 15:47:25
I'm sorry for not sounding supportive, but there has to be another way. It's really sad that in this world we are not allowed to have the time to heal and get better. I know you have tried several things and it has been a while since you have truly felt good, but there are so many other things you can try that are not nearly as invasive as Zyprexa. What are you going to do when you decide you don't want to be on it any more? Then you have to deal with withdrawal, and the possibility of going back to feeling even worse than before because of the alterations Zyprexa may cause. If you stay one, you then have to face the possibility of being on a drug long term that could eventually lead to serious health issues and even brain damage. Again, I'm sorry, but I just don't see this as responsible psychiatry. Your doctor, just like so many others, is simply jumping on the dangerous but very trendy antipsychotic bandwagon.
I really do hope the best for you. I just don't see how anyone, if they are not schizophrenic, could truly benefit from a drug like Zyprexa in the long run.
So, had you ever been in therapy? Did stressful events or unresolved subconsious emotional conflicts possibly play a role in your falling back into major depression and anxiety? Is our mental state purely dependent on medication, or, is it dependent on medication and a host of other factors that we need to tend to consistently, delicately, and meticulously?
Again, I'm sorry, but I cannot support this use of an antipsychotic medication. I know I sound like other anti-medication posters. I just feel very strongly about how antipsychotics should be used, based both on my experience and research.
Take care,
Morgan
Posted by torrid on July 2, 2011, at 8:49:09
In reply to Re: Zyprexa - Reluctant to Take, posted by morgan miller on July 2, 2011, at 1:08:24
morgan again I agree with you. antipsycotics are danderous and perscribed so casually. There is no reasrch on low dose long term use of these drugs. It's a fact at theraputic doses that they cause diabetes. I believe zyprea has a class action suit for giving it's users diabetes.
A couple years ago I started useing a very good general practise MD for medication and he slowly lowered all my medications and I'm doing much better. Maybe because he see the whole person and spends a lot of time with me, maybe it's the vitimins and suppliments, maybe it's that I was ready to get better, I don't know what to give credit for my recovery but it has a lot to do with getting way from the mental illness industry.
Posted by jerseygal1 on July 2, 2011, at 9:15:26
In reply to Re: Zyprexa - Reluctant to Take, posted by morgan miller on July 2, 2011, at 1:08:24
Morgan, I'd be interested in learning what worked for you. Are you on any meds or managing with supplements of vitamins/minerals, etc? I have gone the therapy route for many years and am currently in therapy. I think I've explored all of my "issues" pretty thoroughly. I'm wondering about other people's experiences with zyprexa - were you able to stop taking it without serious withdrawal issues?
Posted by Phil on July 2, 2011, at 10:00:21
In reply to Zyprexa - Reluctant to Take, posted by jerseygal1 on June 27, 2011, at 9:36:23
I haven't read all the posts on this thread but will offer my input...it's not good.
I know zyprexa helps many people and it helped me for a while. then i looked in the mirror while i was trying desperately to button my jeans, couldn't do it.
on a more serious note, my pdoc believes that zyprexa gave me neurologic malignant syndrome. i was in the hospital for 6 days with rapidly spiking fevers. the doctor(and 5 interns!) ran every test known to man.
I had bags of antibiotics on the tree but nothing helped. finally, he asked when i started zyprexa. i don't remember now.
suddenly they took me off all that stuff.
i was better and called a friend to pick me up. 20 minutes later i called him back and my fever shot up to 103.5. the nurse said we've got you for another night.
it's rare and i don't think a decision should be made based on this post. just sharing my experience,
Posted by floatingbridge on July 2, 2011, at 11:55:15
In reply to Re: Zyprexa - Reluctant to Take, posted by Phil on July 2, 2011, at 10:00:21
I remembered when this happened, Phil. It was very scary, and I am very glad to hear from you!
I think if someone is a mental health patient, they have to reach their own bottom lines for treatment. AP's are beyond my experience. I did not tolerate the two I had, and they were withdrawn from treatment consideration.
When I re-present for treatment next week, I am very much hoping that the AP class will not be brought up. Then it won't even be an issue.
That said, they work sometimes when nothing else works. I have seen this here. I also believe in the therapeutic
value of gentle support, so that if someone is starting or on a med, that the person receives information +moral support. I think the information piece has been covered well enough in this thread for JG or another reader to come to a rudimentary conclusion about AP's.I have had a personal sense of outrage because AP's have been nosing into first tier treatment. It's very easy to get Abilify. It's advertised, and looks pretty. Seroquel is advertised as an AD. But I am coming into this thread as a mom
with a dependent child. I went off medication because very well-intentioned folks wanted to provoke a healing crisis. The stress of being alright around a child cannot be overestimated.If JG is knuckling through a zyprexa trial,
I say amen and trust she will make good decisions going forward regarding her treatment. I have not read anything that garauntees (sp.) permanent changes of any palpable sort from a zyprexa trial. That is, to my knowledge, the exception, and that is the knowledge I am going with today in an imperfect world.Hang in there JG with whatever treatments you decide. Everyone is supporting you in the ways they can.
With great respect for the integrity of this group,
fb
> I haven't read all the posts on this thread but will offer my input...it's not good.
> I know zyprexa helps many people and it helped me for a while. then i looked in the mirror while i was trying desperately to button my jeans, couldn't do it.
> on a more serious note, my pdoc believes that zyprexa gave me neurologic malignant syndrome. i was in the hospital for 6 days with rapidly spiking fevers. the doctor(and 5 interns!) ran every test known to man.
> I had bags of antibiotics on the tree but nothing helped. finally, he asked when i started zyprexa. i don't remember now.
> suddenly they took me off all that stuff.
> i was better and called a friend to pick me up. 20 minutes later i called him back and my fever shot up to 103.5. the nurse said we've got you for another night.
> it's rare and i don't think a decision should be made based on this post. just sharing my experience,
Posted by Phil on July 2, 2011, at 16:25:12
In reply to Re: Zyprexa - Reluctant to Take » Phil, posted by floatingbridge on July 2, 2011, at 11:55:15
yep, i've noticed this ap thing going first line and i'm like wtf? can i say that here, it's been a while.
abilify sent me into a mixed states episode which unfortunately like putting bullets in a gun. hate to be so blunt but hey, i lived this stuff.
but!! i'm still here and i still keep an open mind to new treatments but geez some of these bizarre side effects....you know?
Posted by jerseygal1 on July 2, 2011, at 17:11:13
In reply to Re: Zyprexa - Reluctant to Take » Phil, posted by floatingbridge on July 2, 2011, at 11:55:15
Thanks for your support floating bridge. I wish you well with your appointment next week and let us know how it goes. You are so right about our having to consider our children in this. I'm willing to do anything to get well for my daughter even if it means trying an ap. So I will try it for a few weeks and then I'll know if it helps or not. If it doesn't help, I'll be on to the next thing. If it does help, hopefully I can stay on it for only a short time and then taper off. Good luck to you.
Posted by bleauberry on July 2, 2011, at 20:15:44
In reply to Re: Zyprexa - Reluctant to Take » bleauberry, posted by torrid on June 27, 2011, at 20:38:42
> berry, do you know how pristic compares to cymbalta in regaurds to the ratio?
I haven't seen any information specifically on Pristiq, but I think it is a safe assumption it is close to or identical to Effexor. Using that, Effexor is 30:1 serotonin to NE. Cymbalta is 9:1. Milnacipran (Savella) is 2:3.
Posted by bleauberry on July 2, 2011, at 20:35:55
In reply to Re: Zyprexa - Reluctant to Take » bleauberry, posted by morgan miller on June 27, 2011, at 23:01:48
> I'm very surprised to hear you talk so highly of Zyprexa BB. You do know this and other APs have the potential to shrink brain volume? They did in monkeys. Monkeys aren't humans. Different is different. Just that simple.
So much of science really isn't....who funded it, what grant paid for it, etc. Science has to be provable, duplicatable, and predictable.
Well, I guess I'm glad I'm not a monkey! :-)
I don't put a whole ton of faith in studies that attempt to translate to humans what happened in mice or monkeys or whatever.
The depression itself, or in my view the cause of it which is usually not being explored or treated, is going to do more damage than zyprexa.
I'm not so sure I buy the whole premise anyway. I mean, I was on zyprexa for 8 years and I'm better after it than before it. So if my brain shrank, well, i feel better with a shrunk brain! :)
Honestly, instinctually, I feel the ssri's are very risky for the brain in long term usage (several years). I believe they create some bizarre brain changes over time, more than any other psych meds, and more bizarre. There's something about exclusively blocking the serotonin reuptake pump that just aint right. I don't know what exactly, just aint right. Zyprexa somehow helped to recode some genes that needed it. Unfortunately I need the weight gaining gene tweeking right now because I'm so skinny. Kind of extreme I think to take an antipsychotic just to gain weight. So not on my radar screen. But, as I said, I am a fan of zyprexa while at the same time very skeptical of many of the other antipsychotics and ssris.
>
> If it's only been 6 wks hang in there. Maybe you need to raise the dose?
>
> What other antidepressants have you been on?
>
> Sorry if my previous post sounded a bit abrasive. I just get frustrated with the psych industry sometimes. IMO, if you are doing something just out of desperation, it's often the case it might not be the best decision. Try to wait this one out until you have exhausted all options. Antipsychotics are bad news, all of them. These drugs should only be used as a last resort in all cases.
>
> Morgan
Posted by emmanuel98 on July 2, 2011, at 21:01:38
In reply to Re: Zyprexa - Reluctant to Take, posted by morgan miller on July 2, 2011, at 1:08:24
You seem to have this hostility to AAPs. I found them very helpful, though they put weight on me. Zyprexa, risperdal and abilify all stopped my depression within 48 hours. I just couldn't keeptakin them because of the rapid weight gain. But I would have liked to keep taking them. they had no side effects at all for me, except for weight gain.
Posted by morgan miller on July 2, 2011, at 23:53:52
In reply to Re: Zyprexa - Reluctant to Take, posted by jerseygal1 on July 2, 2011, at 9:15:26
Posted by morgan miller on July 2, 2011, at 23:55:04
In reply to Re: Zyprexa - Reluctant to Take, posted by jerseygal1 on July 2, 2011, at 9:15:26
I don't feel that I am the same after my two times on Zyprexa. I also feel like lamictal kinda screwed me up in a way.
I only mention therapy because therapy with a good therapist and the right work done by the patient should help someone to get to loving themselves and feeling good about themselves the way they should have had they gotten what they needed in childhood, you may not be there yet. It takes far more than uncovering and understanding all issues, it takes hard work and much time spent thinking introspectively. Group therapy is probably the best way to achieve the final goal of loving our selves and better being able to thrive in relationships, which are what ultimately makes life full and rich.
I take supplements and I'm back on on oldy but goodie, Zoloft. I am also on lexapro and have been for about 6 months now. I'm not yet sure if the reintroduction of Zoloft is going to give me anything close to what it used to, so far it's been o.k., only been on it for 4 weeks now. I am bipolar and also take lithium orotate and depakote. I'm considering stopping depakote for a while to see what happens(I only take 500mg). I've been off depakote for 10 days without any real problems. I took valerian root during that time instead, and I was still taking the lithium orotate a few times a day. Have you tried lithium as an adjunctive therapy before? Low dose lithium is a far far better alternative to Zyprexa, this I am 100 percent sure of.
What has helped me the most? Not quite sure. I think time has helped me heal quite a bit. I'm a whole lot tougher than I used to be. If I had all the sh*t currently going on with my body ten years ago I would have completely fallen apart. Actually I did fall apart in a big way 3 1/2 years ago when a perfect storm of events came together, including me being off Zoloft for the first time in 7 years and realizing I had not taken care of my body as I felt it beginning to decline is some ways. I'm so much worse off in so many ways now than I was 3 and a half years ago but I am 100 times more stable. I just had to grow up and become tough eventually. Family and friend support has played a major major role here. I do think supplements and medications have helped quite a bit. The supplements that help the most are magnesium, lithium orotate, fish oil, ubiquinol, astragalus, resveratrol, methylcobalamin B12, and holy basil. The recent medications have all been equally as helpful I believe. I also recently dropped grains, added sugar, and other carb heavy foods from my diet. I started eating way more vegetables, especially dark green leafy stuff like kale. I eat red meat more than I eat white meat. I do not cut fat out of my diet. I eat an awesome wholemilk yogurt called Erivan. I try to only incorporate nutritionally power packed and lower glycemic fruits like blueberries, apples, grapefruits, and lemons. I eat a good handfull or two of nuts a day(I don't eat peanuts. They aren't nuts and are not good for health). I also incorporate coconut oil into my cooking of veggies and put a tablespoon in my whey protein/blueberries/wheatgrass smoothie I drink about 5 days a week. I often throw a raw egg or two in my smoothie and eat scrambled(I like them on the moist side) or overeasy cooked eggs. Fish is a big part of my diet as well, mostly consuming wild alaskan salmon and sardines. It becomes real easy to eat this way after a while, especially when you notice how much better you feel. Oh, forgot to mention, one of the main energy sources on this diet is fat. Nature did not intend for us to cut fat out of our diet that naturally occurs in good food. We just need to get the right amount of fat at the right ratios of different types of fatty acids.
Posted by morgan miller on July 3, 2011, at 0:19:59
In reply to Re: Zyprexa - Reluctant to Take » morgan miller, posted by bleauberry on July 2, 2011, at 20:35:55
BB, I'm glad you came out of your experience with Zyprexa unscathed. I unforntunately do not believe I did. I never had the problems I have had in recent years until I started taking mood stabilizers and antipsychotics. I never had any major long term issues with brain function after all the times I was on SSRIsl. Everyone's mileage varies though, so I realize that n=1 in my case may not mean much. I will say that I have heard more reports of people feeling that mood stabilizers like lamictal and AP's like Zyprexa screwed them up than SSRIs. I believe all the reports on the internet of SSRIs causing long term issues to be the minority of all the with a history of SSRI use. Also, how can you believe the D2 antagonism is less risky than selective serotonin reuptake inhibition? SSRIs do far more than just selectively inhibit the reuptake of serotonin anyway. They are mostly anti-inflammatory. They can help to restore HPA axis function. Some antagonize sigma 1 receptors(luvox and lexapro), whereas others agonize them(sertraline). Sertraline has been shown to possibly modify the immune system in ways that may be helpful to autoimmune disorders. It also inhibits mTOR and works through another pathway, likely helping to suppress and prevent cancerous growth. I personally think SSRIs get a much worse rap than they deserve. I personally know so so many people that have been on SSRIs for a very long time and are doing just fine.
I completely agree that depression can do a whole lot of damage to the mind. Many people do not take this into consideration when suffering from cognitive function or any other loss of or altering of brain function.
I myself would be very concerned about studies done on monkeys. And who would be out there funding these studies that has an agenda to destroy the reputation of drugs made my big pharma? Other competing drug companies? Maybe, I would like to find out who funded these studies. Actually, I believe one of them was funded by one the company that makes zyprexa and the scientist hired by them tried to spin the results to minimize the results. All I know is that significant brain shrinkage or growth would not be a good thing. And monkeys are out closest animal ancestor genetically, so I'm not so sure we should be brushing these results off because they were not done on humans. As far as brain shrinkage and depression is concerned, I believe the only part of the brain known to be atrophied by depression is the hippocampus, which I do not think was the focus of these studies. My own poor brain is not functioning at the level it should be, so I'm going to have to go back over and read the links I posted to make sure.
Posted by morgan miller on July 3, 2011, at 0:28:28
In reply to Re: Zyprexa - Reluctant to Take-Morgan, posted by emmanuel98 on July 2, 2011, at 21:01:38
> You seem to have this hostility to AAPs. I found them very helpful, though they put weight on me. Zyprexa, risperdal and abilify all stopped my depression within 48 hours. I just couldn't keeptakin them because of the rapid weight gain. But I would have liked to keep taking them. they had no side effects at all for me, except for weight gain.
I do have hostility toward AAPs. Have you seen how they are being used by the field of psychiatry lately? Also, I hear far more complaints from people on AAPs than I do on mood stabilizers or antidepressants. Did you read the links I posted? How do you know for sure that the AAPs you were on were not causing some type of damage. I drank for years, likely doing some damage, but I did not really feel like anything significant was happening at the time. The very fact that AAPs like Zyprexa cause such rapid weight gain that is hard to lose should be enough for anyone to be very cautious about getting on these drugs.
If other options like low dose lithium, low dose depakote, supplements, and drastic dietary changes have not been tried yet, no AAP should ever be considered as an adjunctive antidepressant therapy. I'm just warning that AAPs are the most invasive of all psychiatric medications and may be very difficult to come off of. Why would someone want to take this risk if they have not exhausted all other options? Now maybe Jerseygirl has exhausted all other options, if she has, then maybe it is a good idea just for a few months. But, I would not go any higher than 5 mgs, that should be more than enough. I even think staying at 2.5 mgs for a week should be done just to see if it is enough to make the necessary difference.
This is the end of the thread.
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