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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by BrainDamage on May 29, 2011, at 4:27:07
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/05/03/tips-to-avoiding-depression.aspx
Posted by orbital on May 29, 2011, at 6:15:03
In reply to Anti Depressant-Cardio Vascula damage?!, posted by BrainDamage on May 29, 2011, at 4:27:07
I watched the first 10 minutes and gave up. Very inaccurate - Freud wrote *one* paper re:cocaine early on in his career, and it was widely disregarded. And he later completely retracted his original point of view.
I'm not sneezing at the risk of cardiovascular damage, but I do know that depression would have probably killed me years ago had I not sought treatment - both psychiatric and psychological.
> http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/05/03/tips-to-avoiding-depression.aspx
Posted by orbital on May 29, 2011, at 6:17:07
In reply to Trivastal Retard » BrainDamage, posted by orbital on May 29, 2011, at 6:15:03
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 29, 2011, at 9:28:10
In reply to Anti Depressant-Cardio Vascula damage?!, posted by BrainDamage on May 29, 2011, at 4:27:07
> http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/05/03/tips-to-avoiding-depression.aspx
Friends,
If you are considering being a discussant in this thread, I am requesting that you view the following video.
To view this video:
A. Pull up Google
B. Typein:
[youutube, In Memoriam (Victims of Psychiatric drugs)]
You will see a dark screen with writing. The time is 5 min posted on Dec 11 2007
Posted by Phillipa on May 29, 2011, at 13:42:40
In reply to Lou's request--howmhenny » BrainDamage, posted by Lou Pilder on May 29, 2011, at 9:28:10
Now I'm completly freaked out. Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on May 29, 2011, at 13:50:23
In reply to Anti Depressant-Cardio Vascula damage?!, posted by BrainDamage on May 29, 2011, at 4:27:07
Who is this guy I'm totally traumatized by watching which I know didn't have to do but did unfortunately for me. Phillipa
Posted by linkadge on May 29, 2011, at 14:49:17
In reply to Anti Depressant-Cardio Vascula damage?!, posted by BrainDamage on May 29, 2011, at 4:27:07
I am not saying that antidepressants are innocuous, however, the association between antidepressant use and vascular problems is not necessarily cause and effect. Mercola is specifically anti-psychiatry.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on May 29, 2011, at 16:51:05
In reply to Re: Anti Depressant-Cardio Vascula damage?!, posted by linkadge on May 29, 2011, at 14:49:17
Link that's what I came on to say anti-psychitry. Just google his name to his website he's been disciplined for false claims on all sorts of things from water purifiers. Only reason I had googled him the holistic pet store I frequent the lady there believes most of this stuff like the water. Worth a google. I am going to forget I signed on and read it. And I will unsubscribe as soon as get a newsletter without reading it. Phillipa
Posted by BrainDamage on May 30, 2011, at 8:56:26
In reply to Re: Anti Depressant-Cardio Vascula damage?!, posted by linkadge on May 29, 2011, at 14:49:17
I'd just like to say that I'm not trying to say that Anti-Depresants cause Cardio problems.
I'm just trying to work out if the Article is valid or not.Obviously the man who wrote it has his own issues.........
Posted by larryhoover on May 30, 2011, at 11:08:33
In reply to Anti Depressant-Cardio Vascula damage?!, posted by BrainDamage on May 29, 2011, at 4:27:07
I wouldn't let this new finding worry you too much. Mercola's diatribe was based on an L.A. Times report of some evidence provided at a medical conference. It doesn't appear that he looked further than that.
The original research does not appear to have been published in a journal as yet, so I did a google search and found more information than was in the L.A. Times article. http://www.theheart.org/article/1204381.do
The most important bit of information in this article is that there is an interaction between antidepressant use and the acute mood state of the subject; those with the most severe depression according to the Beck Depression Inventory had the greatest arterial wall thickening. That suggests, IMHO, that the artery wall thickening is transient, that it will regress when both the low mood and the antidepressant drugs are no longer present. The study measured active antidepressant use, and acute mood state, not history of either.
We already know that depression is associated with increased risk of cardiac/circulatory system disease. In this study, this one risk factor was closely observed. That's all we know. And what they found was that artery wall thickening equivalent to about a four year increase in age was observed. When I'm depressed, I feel more than four years older than I am. Just sayin'.
Lar
P.S. Mercola astounds me in his extreme interpretation of the science he reports on. I know of no better example of confirmation bias, the tendency to only use evidence that supports your beliefs, than Mercola in general.
Posted by 49er on May 30, 2011, at 11:20:40
In reply to Re: Anti Depressant-Cardio Vascula damage?! » linkadge, posted by Phillipa on May 29, 2011, at 16:51:05
> Link that's what I came on to say anti-psychitry. Just google his name to his website he's been disciplined for false claims on all sorts of things from water purifiers. Only reason I had googled him the holistic pet store I frequent the lady there believes most of this stuff like the water. Worth a google. I am going to forget I signed on and read it. And I will unsubscribe as soon as get a newsletter without reading it. Phillipa
Hi Philipa,
I definitely agree that Mercola is a quack but I found this issue discussed on the CBS newsite.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-20050390-10391704.html?tag=mncol;lst;3
There is a clear association between increased intima-media thickness and taking an antidepressant, and this trend is even stronger when we look at people who are on these medications and are more depressed," lead investigator Dr. Amit Shah, a cardiology fellow at Emory University in Atlanta, said in the statement. "Because we didn't see an association between depression itself and a thickening of the carotid artery, it strengthens the argument that it is more likely the antidepressants than the actual depression that could be behind the association."
Dr. Shah said the connection between heart health and antidepressants is poorly understood, adding that the medications may increase levels of chemical messengers like serotonin and norepineprine - which, in turn, might cause blood vessels to constrict or tighten, boosting blood pressure, a risk factor for atherosclerosis.
In the name of disclosure, Dr. Janet Wright, senior vice president for science and quality at the American College of Cardiology, told CBS that she was surprised by the finding but wasn't worried that antidepressant use might be a significant contributor to the nation's heart attack and stroke burden.
What's the take-away message for people taking antidepressants?
"They should know that the association between antidepressants and cardiovascular risk was mild but significant," Dr. Wright said."They should not stop taking their antidepressant but should mention this result to their doctor." In turn, doctors should carefully assess cholesterol levels, blood pressure, lifestyle habits, and other cardiovascular risk factors in patients taking antidepressants, she said.
Obviously, it is not a clear cut issue but personally, if I were on ADS, I wouldn't blow off this risk, particularly if I had an increased cardiovascular and stroke risk or a family history of one.
49er
Posted by BrainDamage on May 30, 2011, at 12:02:38
In reply to Trivastal Retard » BrainDamage, posted by orbital on May 29, 2011, at 6:15:03
How Dare you call me a Retard
Not just any kind of Retard either-
A "Trivastal Retard" too Boot!!!Sorry that Joke was in rather poor taste :)
O well at least I stimulated a debate
To be honest I wouldn't want to come off my meds even if my life was possibly in danger...............
Posted by larryhoover on May 30, 2011, at 12:17:27
In reply to Re: Anti Depressant-Cardio Vascula damage?! » Phillipa, posted by 49er on May 30, 2011, at 11:20:40
> What's the take-away message for people taking antidepressants?
>
> "They should know that the association between antidepressants and cardiovascular risk was mild but significant," Dr. Wright said."They should not stop taking their antidepressant but should mention this result to their doctor." In turn, doctors should carefully assess cholesterol levels, blood pressure, lifestyle habits, and other cardiovascular risk factors in patients taking antidepressants, she said.
>
> Obviously, it is not a clear cut issue but personally, if I were on ADS, I wouldn't blow off this risk, particularly if I had an increased cardiovascular and stroke risk or a family history of one.
>
> 49erI was afraid that this modest increase in one cardiovascular risk factor would be generalized to cardiovascular risk overall. The evidence is overwhelming that antidepressant treatment for depression reduces the frequency of cardiovascular events, even in those with a history of cardiovascular disease.
Here are a couple of just-published reviews of the issue. There are many more, with the same message.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21256471
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21435422Here's an older study, written by cardiologists following patients who had experienced a heart attack.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15997021
And, considering that antidepressants are also prescribed for other disorders than depression, the overall impact has also been assessed. Only tricyclics had an increased CVD risk (but we knew that 40 years ago, which prompted the development of the SSRI antidepressants).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21118851
Lar
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 30, 2011, at 17:10:00
In reply to Lou's request--howmhenny » BrainDamage, posted by Lou Pilder on May 29, 2011, at 9:28:10
> > http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/05/03/tips-to-avoiding-depression.aspx
>
> Friends,
> If you are considering being a discussant in this thread, I am requesting that you view the following video.
> To view this video:
> A. Pull up Google
> B. Typein:
> [youutube, In Memoriam (Victims of Psychiatric drugs)]
> You will see a dark screen with writing. The time is 5 min posted on Dec 11 2007Friends,
If you are considering being a discussant in this thread, I am requesting that yiou read the following article.
Lou
To see this article;
A. Bring up Google
B. Type in:
[Mark Hyman MD, Protect yourself from]
the link comes up first when I search for it. The posting date is Oct 2 2010
Posted by Phillipa on May 30, 2011, at 22:02:52
In reply to Re: Anti Depressant-Cardio Vascula damage?! » 49er, posted by larryhoover on May 30, 2011, at 12:17:27
Lar seems studies use ad's for 12 weeks but not long term. So if an ad isn't working it's harming rather than helping. I understand that if depression is eliminated then the health of the patient returns to whatever normal is. But I also would think that having chronic illnesses is depressing in itself. Now then if Elizabeth Kubler Ross lists the stages of grieving depression is one. So do you feel ad's should be continued indefinitely? I've seen that many take them for years and years but is that what they the meds were designed for long term use? Thanks Phillipa
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 31, 2011, at 6:12:32
In reply to Lou's request--huduyutruz, posted by Lou Pilder on May 30, 2011, at 17:10:00
> > > http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/05/03/tips-to-avoiding-depression.aspx
> >
> > Friends,
> > If you are considering being a discussant in this thread, I am requesting that you view the following video.
> > To view this video:
> > A. Pull up Google
> > B. Typein:
> > [youutube, In Memoriam (Victims of Psychiatric drugs)]
> > You will see a dark screen with writing. The time is 5 min posted on Dec 11 2007
>
> Friends,
> If you are considering being a discussant in this thread, I am requesting that yiou read the following article.
> Lou
> To see this article;
> A. Bring up Google
> B. Type in:
> [Mark Hyman MD, Protect yourself from]
> the link comes up first when I search for it. The posting date is Oct 2 2010Friends,
If you are considering taking a psychotropic drug, or considering to continue to take psychotropic drugs, I am requesting that you read this post.
The drugs that are psychoactive have been used for thousands of years. The drugs came from plants and such including fungi, mushrooms, friuts, and other naturlly occuring substances. In ancient Egypt to the Romans and Greeks and up through the middle ages to now, had a well-developed body of knowledge concerning how to kill people. The Greek word for those that were in this industry {pharmacopeia} is translated in English as {sorcerer}. It was an industry of death. From poison hemlock to kill Socretes to the use of nerve agents in mass-murder, this industry (redacted by respondent).
Now in ancient Egypt, those in this industry of death used seeds from fruits such as peaches, cherries, almonds, apples and such to kill. They ground up the seeds and put the substance in food. This substance is {cyanide}. Cyanide poison stops respiration in the cells and leads to cardiac arrest. Cyanide gas can be made and those that inhale the fumes have cardiac arrest in a short time. There is a mushroom that has cyanide in it, so a lot of those in a food could cause death.
Now in my study of this industry of death, I find that the industry took a quantum leap in the 1800's when chemists synthesized the chemicals of death. The great wars brought this industry to create gasses that could kill entire armies. These gasses are in stockpiles today and can be made in home labs. They are nerve agents that kill by a means well-known for centuries. You see, I have studied this industry at the molecular level, seeing how nerve agents stop respiration in the cell causing death, like how cyanide causes death.
Now in the ancient times there were people in this industry that found that giving these drugs in an amount short of killing the person could cause one to be debilitated and easily controlled and made into slaves. Some plants could cause homocide thinking and people given that drug could be used to kill others while in that state of mind. The drug comes from the hemp plant called hasheesh which is where the word assassin comes from. The drugs could also be addictive so the person had to return to get the drug and then were subjected to economic blackmail by the sorcerer for the addicted ones had to pay for more of the drug to avoid the withdrawal from the addiction. The science of extracting morphine and codien from opium is ancient. Now the people trusted the person that gave them drugs for the sorcerer could claim that they can comingle with the spirit world. So the poeple addicted and controlled were led to believe that the person dispensing the drugs was above them and were doing what would be good for them. You can search [shaminism} and read about this. The drugs were halluncinogenic drugs from mushrooms and other plants. The {shamin} then was like our modern day person claiming that they (redacted by respondent) and people have to come to them for the rest of their lives to get drugs or face withdrawal.
Now I have studied how psychotropic drugs can cause cardiac arrest, movment disorders such as tardive dyskinessia, diabetes, suicide and homocide thinking and such. It has to do with the cellular structure and how the drug could short out the activity of the cell so that the cell dies. A small amoumt of a drug can go to all the cells in the body quickly so that all the cells stop respiration, but it is the heart that can be stopped that causes death in cyanide poisoning.
to be continued....
Lou
Posted by Brainbeard on June 5, 2011, at 5:42:27
In reply to Lou's request--cardiac arrest, posted by Lou Pilder on May 31, 2011, at 6:12:32
Posted by Lou Pilder on June 5, 2011, at 8:10:59
In reply to Wow, thanks Lou - I had no idea! (nm), posted by Brainbeard on June 5, 2011, at 5:42:27
Bb,
Thank you for your interest in this subject. Here is a link to an abstract that I am requesting for you to read if you are interested in a more in-depth study of the relationship to mankind seeking mind-altering drugs or to use drugs to kill or control others or to use drugs for economic gain by enslaving people with addictive drugs
Lou
To read this abstract:
A. Pull up Google
B. Type in:
[Journal of Social Psychiatry, Deception and Self-Deception, R. Warner]
The date is April 1980 and is vol 26
This is the end of the thread.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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