![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 18 to 42 of 50. Go back in thread:
Posted by sigismund on April 13, 2011, at 16:15:00
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist, posted by morgan miller on April 13, 2011, at 15:38:35
Human kind cannot bear very much reality.
Posted by floatingbridge on April 13, 2011, at 16:27:45
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist, posted by sigismund on April 13, 2011, at 16:15:00
> Human kind cannot bear very much reality.
I did see one of my roosters butchered this week. I eat meat. That was plenty of truth for awhile.
We sang an North African killing song (for guinnea birds) that helped. Everyone was reverent. I didn't have the nerve to eat my rooster. I gave it to my good farm friends.
The blood was brilliant red, then very quickly dulled. Flute's last moments. He kicked and kicked after his head was removed--his life force in that body was so strong. I couldn't help feeling that I betrayed him. I did.
Guess avoid slaughterhouses while on norco tapers. :(
Posted by floatingbridge on April 13, 2011, at 16:32:17
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist, posted by mtdewcmu on April 13, 2011, at 13:44:58
Oh fabulous. Well, MtDew, thank you. That does help. I just am already such a shame weakling :-/
I will keep this in mind. The step from 30 to 20 was nothing like this 20 to 15mg.
Very good information. I am grateful.
I will make no plans except to clear my schedule and practice self-kindness (when possible ;) ).
fb
You smartie, you.
Posted by floatingbridge on April 13, 2011, at 16:44:39
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist, posted by morgan miller on April 13, 2011, at 15:38:35
> >It's not necessarily lying. But sometimes you can't handle the truth.
>
> I would say that most of us have a very hard time with the truth most of the time. Not talking about you FB : )Silly Billy, it's as difficult for me as anyone. Now I'm thinking something ridiculous and unpleasant: that gawd awful movie about some court martial and Jack Nickelson vs that perpetual enemy of psychiatry super star, Mr.
Cruise. Remember that film?I surrendered all my unused meds. The cupboards are bare of lithium. Dr's seem to think this is just alright, you know. I have reupped my xanax to my upper allowed level. That's all I have. Both gp & pdoc say 'sit tight'. Very quaint.
I can understand that in order to reboot, a doctor would prefer less chemical interference, esp after scaring everyone with my Lyrica reaction :(
Still, had one said to me what MtDew had; what a difference that could make, eh?
Thanks Morgan. I'll let you know when the dust settles.
Hugs dude!
Posted by floatingbridge on April 13, 2011, at 16:48:25
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist, posted by floatingbridge on April 13, 2011, at 16:44:39
Posted by morgan miller on April 14, 2011, at 1:26:35
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist, posted by floatingbridge on April 13, 2011, at 16:44:39
FB, even in your worst state, you still have your spirit. You appear to be quite strong. I bet most people in your situation would have no where close the amount of restraint and control that you have.
Posted by floatingbridge on April 14, 2011, at 1:40:12
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist, posted by morgan miller on April 14, 2011, at 1:26:35
Morgan, that's one of the kindest thing everv said about me. Wow. Thanks :)
I'm sooooo relieved MtDew posted that comment about norco taper. Guess I'll make it :D
I am feeling great amounts of gratitude for the folks here at babble. You included.
fb
Posted by floatingbridge on April 14, 2011, at 1:53:11
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist, posted by morgan miller on April 13, 2011, at 14:01:42
Morgan, gp wants to try it, but she said it would bring on instant withdrawal and She wants to spare me. I don't know if she means completely off, or down to 10 or 5 of norco. See her Monday.
Read the letter my DO sent my gp. Says I need to go forward with pain meds. But what? What is there besides narcotics and AD's?
Sigh.
Will start LDN asap. Will post progress. Have You tried it?
BTW, hope you are alright.
fb
> Have you tried low dose Naltrexone yet? I believe you were considering it. I'm wondering why neither your GP or your Pdoc has gone for a Naltrexone trial, it just doesn't make sense to me, especially considering your withdrawal from Norco. Maybe you have not suggested it to them. Doctors frustrate the heck out of me. Desperate times call for desperate measures. I don't even consider the treatments I've suggested to necessarily be desperate or risky, I know some that are on one of three of these-depakote, lithium, and naltrexone-simply for neuroprotection/longevity and mood enhancement, in the absence of any real issues with mental illness.
>
> Morgan
Posted by SLS on April 14, 2011, at 5:52:17
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist » morgan miller, posted by floatingbridge on April 14, 2011, at 1:53:11
Hi FB.
Has anyone suggested using gabapentin (Neurontin) to ease the withdrawal effects?
- Scott
Posted by mtdewcmu on April 14, 2011, at 7:47:56
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist » floatingbridge, posted by SLS on April 14, 2011, at 5:52:17
> Hi FB.
>
> Has anyone suggested using gabapentin (Neurontin) to ease the withdrawal effects?
>
>She is probably over the hump by now anyway, at least for this dose reduction. It may help with future reductions, though.
Posted by mtdewcmu on April 14, 2011, at 7:50:37
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist » morgan miller, posted by floatingbridge on April 14, 2011, at 1:40:12
> I'm sooooo relieved MtDew posted that comment about norco taper. Guess I'll make it :D
>I'm glad it had that effect. Since you're still taking norco, the proof would be if you suddenly feel better after each norco dose, but gradually worsen as your next dose approaches. It should follow a very predictable pattern.
Posted by floatingbridge on April 14, 2011, at 11:11:13
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist » floatingbridge, posted by mtdewcmu on April 14, 2011, at 7:50:37
Like clockwork. And I do feel like I've gotten over some sort of hump. Good. And, well, sobering. First the good. Maybe I'm not quite so wretched :D. It's just my chemically induced personality. I'm still going to work on more healthy anger expression (anger *hygiene*).
More sobering is the actual pain itself. I love seeing my body reset to lower doses of norco again. That shows resilience. However, the pain between doses can be insistent.
My Osteopath wrote my gp that he reccommends pain medication going forward. :( So, my choices seem to be a) narcotics--no(!), b) anti-depressants (failed cymbalta & lyrica--in flames; no thanks savella!) c) tricyclics (I love being AD free! Despite my cries for knock-out risperdal.) d) ? Zanaflex helps (milder muscle relaxant).
Of course, add gradated (graduated?) exercise and some meditation, plus more therapy, but I don't mind these.
Thanks one and all :)
fb
>
> I'm glad it had that effect. Since you're still taking norco, the proof would be if you suddenly feel better after each norco dose, but gradually worsen as your next dose approaches. It should follow a very predictable pattern.
Posted by floatingbridge on April 14, 2011, at 11:19:27
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist » floatingbridge, posted by SLS on April 14, 2011, at 5:52:17
> Hi FB.
>
> Has anyone suggested using gabapentin (Neurontin) to ease the withdrawal effects?
>
>
> - ScottHey Scott,
Given an adverse trial of Lyrica, and that the Lyrica didn't seem to touch the main pain, could neurontin hold potential as a pain med going forward? And when I get to the next drop, I'll run it past my gp.
[You do know the Lyrica did walk me through snri withdrawal w/ little head-
zapping. That's the silver lining :) ]Thanks,
fb
Posted by mtdewcmu on April 14, 2011, at 11:34:14
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist » SLS, posted by floatingbridge on April 14, 2011, at 11:19:27
> Given an adverse trial of Lyrica, and that the Lyrica didn't seem to touch the main pain, could neurontin hold potential as a pain med going forward? And when I get to the next drop, I'll run it past my gp.
>
> [You do know the Lyrica did walk me through snri withdrawal w/ little head-
> zapping. That's the silver lining :) ]
>
> Thanks,
>
> fbI know you didn't ask me, but I'm going to venture a guess that there's no way to know unless you try it. I have not had difficulty getting docs to prescribe Neurontin. Neurontin is usually used for neuropathic pain, which is pain that feels like tingling or burning and originates from the nerves. It's not used (to my knowledge) in other kinds of pain. I'm not sure about fibro, but it strikes me as plausible.
Posted by SLS on April 14, 2011, at 11:56:32
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist » SLS, posted by floatingbridge on April 14, 2011, at 11:19:27
> > Hi FB.
> >
> > Has anyone suggested using gabapentin (Neurontin) to ease the withdrawal effects?
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> Hey Scott,
>
> Given an adverse trial of Lyrica, and that the Lyrica didn't seem to touch the main pain, could neurontin hold potential as a pain med going forward? And when I get to the next drop, I'll run it past my gp.> [You do know the Lyrica did walk me through snri withdrawal w/ little head-
> zapping. That's the silver lining :) ]
>
> Thanks,
>
> fb
Lyrica and Neurontin are alike in many ways. Neither of them like me very much, though. They really screw me up cognitively (probably because of alpha-2-delta subunit of the calcium channel blockade). However, the two did feel different to me. There is some literature describing the use of Neurontin in opioid withdrawal. Results have been equivocal. The dosages used by some were probably too low (900mg). In any event, I would not approach Neurontin with great optimism. I would not skip it over, though.Pubmed:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=opioid%20gabapentin%20withdrawal
Does your back hurt? You may experience more body pains during the process of hydrocodone discontinuation. Neurontin should help with these.
- Scott
Posted by mtdewcmu on April 14, 2011, at 12:32:42
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist » floatingbridge, posted by SLS on April 14, 2011, at 11:56:32
> Lyrica and Neurontin are alike in many ways. Neither of them like me very much, though. They really screw me up cognitively (probably because of alpha-2-delta subunit of the calcium channel blockade). However, the two did feel different to me. There is some literature describing the use of Neurontin in opioid withdrawal. Results have been equivocal. The dosages used by some were probably too low (900mg). In any event, I would not approach Neurontin with great optimism. I would not skip it over, though.I don't quite understand why Lyrica is a controlled substance (but barely) and Neurontin is not. I have tried Neurontin, and at first it seemed like it could be described as "fun," but those effects went away. Never tried Lyrica. I wonder if it's like Neurontin, but moreso.
Posted by mtdewcmu on April 14, 2011, at 12:38:37
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist » floatingbridge, posted by SLS on April 14, 2011, at 11:56:32
Also, I think it's interesting that Lyrica is the only controlled substance (that I know of) with anything remotely like that mechanism.
> Does your back hurt? You may experience more body pains during the process of hydrocodone discontinuation. Neurontin should help with these.
>I've "heard" that it makes you feel better when you're having opioid withdrawals to take stimulants. Even a cup of coffee makes you feel a little better and takes your mind off it.
Posted by sigismund on April 14, 2011, at 17:15:30
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist » SLS, posted by floatingbridge on April 14, 2011, at 11:19:27
>could neurontin hold potential as a pain med going forward?
Not so much that, although it would be of some use.
When I had (my mild case of) shingles it helped.
But mainly it could be helpful to allow you to sit still while you drop the Norco.
If you are in pain, I don't think Norco is sillier than anything else (except somehow getting rid of the pain). It is really more to the point, isn't it? It has drawbacks, of course.
Posted by floatingbridge on April 14, 2011, at 18:31:20
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist, posted by mtdewcmu on April 14, 2011, at 12:38:37
> Also, I think it's interesting that Lyrica is the only controlled substance (that I know of) with anything remotely like that mechanism.
>I didn't know it was controlled. I think people feel kinda' drunk on it. I was sooo dopey, and people (afterwards) said my speech was slurred :( My doc did tell me to be careful on it (?). She offered it. Then, she gave me a scrip for MM. No I said. She said take it in case you change your mind (?). I dislike marijuana.
> >
>
> I've "heard" that it makes you feel better when you're having opioid
withdrawals to take stimulants. Even a cup of coffee makes you feel a little better and takes your mind off it.Out of coffee :( I just chipped a little off of a ultram er pill. That's all I have. Surprised to find that lurking because in a huff of feeling insulted, I brought my pharma bag down to the doc and dumped it. I get upset when my integrity is questioned :-/
However, today is very bad pain-wise and the cranky factor is 8 on a scale of ten. Can't continue taking bites out of Ultram or I'm shooting my own foot.
I might talk to gp about neurontin only if it's milder.
What's the old expression about that last step, *it's a doozie*.
I appreciate people writing, you and others. This is some tough sh*t for me--though my husband half teases that I'm a baby.
fb
Posted by floatingbridge on April 14, 2011, at 18:39:58
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist » floatingbridge, posted by SLS on April 14, 2011, at 11:56:32
>
> Lyrica and Neurontin are alike in many ways. Neither of them like me very much, though. They really screw me up cognitively (probably because of alpha-2-delta subunit of the calcium channel blockade). However, the two did feel different to me. There is some literature describing the use of Neurontin in opioid withdrawal. Results have been equivocal. The dosages used by some were probably too low (900mg). In any event, I would not approach Neurontin with great optimism. I would not skip it over, though.Ditto on the cognition *-*
I'm gonna call the gp now. Thanks for the links. Today is turning out to be tough again.
Thanks Scott.
And everyone writing on this thread.
fb
>
> Pubmed:
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=opioid%20gabapentin%20withdrawal
>
>
> Does your back hurt? You may experience more body pains during the process of hydrocodone discontinuation. Neurontin should help with these.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by floatingbridge on April 14, 2011, at 19:56:58
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist » floatingbridge, posted by sigismund on April 14, 2011, at 17:15:30
Posted by morgan miller on April 14, 2011, at 21:37:13
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist, posted by floatingbridge on April 14, 2011, at 11:11:13
FB, I really think Zoloft(brand name is best IMHO) would be worth another shot. You did mention taking it at one point did you not? I believe Zoloft to be at the head of the class of SSRIs for those that respond well to it and have certain health conditions, due to it's potential for immunomodulation, anti-inflammatory effects, neuroprotection, and mTOR inhibition.
Posted by Phillipa on April 14, 2011, at 22:17:10
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist, posted by morgan miller on April 14, 2011, at 21:37:13
Seriously antiinflammatory how so? Seriously? Phillipa
Posted by morgan miller on April 15, 2011, at 0:06:52
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist » morgan miller, posted by Phillipa on April 14, 2011, at 22:17:10
> Seriously antiinflammatory how so? Seriously? Phillipa
Zoloft is not the only AD that may be anti-inflammatory. I need to do a little search and find where I read about Zolofts potential to suppress inflammation. I know it does inhibit mTOR, which can suppress over growth/proliferation, making a potential chemopreventive against cancer.
Posted by morgan miller on April 15, 2011, at 0:09:10
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist » morgan miller, posted by Phillipa on April 14, 2011, at 22:17:10
> Seriously antiinflammatory how so? Seriously? Phillipa
Here is one study giving evidence for Zoloft's immunomodulatory and anti-inflammatory effects.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.