![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 42 to 66 of 81. Go back in thread:
Posted by jerryTRD on December 22, 2010, at 22:56:21
In reply to Re: *Not* Thinking in terms of meds » linkadge, posted by bleauberry on December 21, 2010, at 17:30:28
> Link, your comments to me and others in this thread are some of the most profound wisdom I've ever encountered on this board. Man you hit a home run the way I see it.
>
> I do believe that when we pin all our hopes on pills, we are indeed engaging in maladaptive behavior that is destined to lose the war against depression. Depression has too many causes and impacts every corner of the body. It indeed requires a wide ranging comprehensive approach, of which a pill is only one piece of the whole pie. To ignore the whole pie is, as you said, maladaptive.
>
> imo
>
>I agree thinking that one pill will cure everything. But hoping for a med that might just help in the battle is no where near maladaptive. That generalization is - to me - somewhat offensive.
You would never call someone with Cancer, MS, HIV, Dementia, Alzheimer's, etc maladaptive for hoping for a new and better medication to keep them alive longer - how is depression different? So, are you saying that we - on this forum -and in general who have mental illness basically have behavior disorders as well? It's all in our heads right? But if I had a broken bone that would be OK since that is "real?"
Excuse me if I come off as a bit disturbed by yours and others' comments - but for some of us - like me who has gone through ECT, numerous meds/cocktails, supplements, exercise programs, support groups, therapy, Vegal Nerve Stimulator trials and anything else you can think of - I think I should be allowed to have some hope for a new med when it comes out. To me this just adds to the stigma WITHIN our own community. Pretty soon we'll all be telling each other to snap out of it.
When you've tried EVERYTHING that covers the WHOLE "pie" - what do you think we should do then? Don't damn us for educating and supporting each other when it comes to medication. Like I said - you wouldn't be saying the same thing to someone with cancer, etc.
-Jerry.
Posted by jerryTRD on December 23, 2010, at 1:19:12
In reply to Re: *Not* Thinking in terms of meds, posted by linkadge on December 19, 2010, at 18:44:40
> >The problem is, when we go out to the coffee >shop and feel so uncomfortable that we can't >really fully enjoy it and get the most out of >the experience, we then start to say, "Damn, no >matter what efforts I make, I don't seem to feel >right without the right medication".
>
> It doesn't matter if you fully enjoy it or not. We are so focused on needing to enjoying things. Its all about me, what will this do for me? I was feeling miserable last week and wanted to take the day off. I didn't take the day off, I went to work and felt miserable most of the day. But, after I was done I felt great. I didn't just give up and call it quits on the day.
>
> I do believe there is something wrong with depressed individuals, but I believe we feed the illness. When we are told that "it is all in our heads", part of us dies. When we believe this, we stop working on trying to feel better and want to sit back and expect the medications do all the work (which they never will). And when something small goes wrong, we have to "change medications" or augment with this or that.
>
> >I think most people here are hyper-focused on >medication because they have tried getting out, >exercising, and doing other positive things >without a consistent positive response and >consistent relief of symptoms.
>
> Nothing will being consistent symptom relief.
>
> >Linkage, have you ever thought that maybe the >things you struggle with are not as severe as >many people here?
>
> I don't think that is anything you are qualified (me being here, and you being there) to question.
>
> I think that I have had some severe problems, but I think that there are beneficial brain regions that can be strenthened, if you care to strenthen them.
>
> Did you know that practicing juggling for a month significantly increases grey matter volume in certain areas of the brain? Even the process of "acting" well, when you are not feeling well, probably helps to strenthen the circuits involved in normal emotional function. I think the worst thing you can do is *give up* on engaging potentially adverse situations just because you don't like the way they make you feel.
>
> If you continue to throw yourself in situations that put you outside of your comfort zone, your brain will grow, adapt and respond. If you sit around and expect drugs to fix all your problems, your brain will atrophy.
>
> >Still, I have heard you speak of being able to >go run and get relief, something I and many >others here cannot do.
>
> B*llsh*t. You don't want to do it. If there was a crazy axe murderer chasing you, you'd move. Quit thinking about what makes you feel good. Just do it, and watch yourself respond.
>
> Linkadge
I feel this post to be offensive to those who have tried everything not just medications to battle their mental illness. I'm all for treatment that includes the whole and not just bits here and there. You say everyone can get out and jog? I have asthma - so even if I were running from an axe murderer I'd die anyway.I do agree with some of what you're saying, however I feel you're over generalizing. Who knows what we've all tried - minus medications - to help our brains keep order? I don't know - do you?
I just feel it's demeaning to generalize that people on a medication message board are ONLY focused on pills. I would ask to give us some credit.
Jerry
Posted by jhj on December 23, 2010, at 3:33:09
In reply to Re: *Not* Thinking in terms of meds » linkadge, posted by jerryTRD on December 23, 2010, at 1:19:12
I wonder whether those who have strength and motivation to run or do any other excercise are depressed enough.
Regards,
Jatin
Posted by SLS on December 23, 2010, at 4:43:03
In reply to *Not* Thinking in terms of meds, posted by linkadge on December 17, 2010, at 18:19:43
> Does anybody here find themselves continually thinking about all of their problems in terms of medications?
I find myself continually thinking about the way depression pervades my existence - not medications. Every conscious experience is tainted or muted by depression, so it is difficult not to focus all of one's energies on searching for a cure. I don't think focus equates to obsession.
Where I think you are correct is in describing a scenario in which someone becomes obsessed with self-medicating and evaluating the results minute-by-minute instead of week by week. It is a nasty ride. However, never-ending pain and desperation can lead people to behave in ways that had not been characteristic of them in the past.
For at least some people, all that is needed to facilitate the recovery process from MDD or BD is a single pill. The effects of depression are profound. They can make someone feel dead inside. Equally profound in magnitude are the effects of successful antidepressant treatment. One becomes alive inside. It is an awakening. The resolution of depression leaves available to one their full potential to deal with issues and even live happily ever after.
I experienced a complete remission of my depressive disorder for nine months as the consequence of taking a combination of two pills. I might have been well for the last two decades had my doctor not elected to discontinue treatment. It is hard not to notice when a world of black-and-white becomes a magnificent kaleidoscope of color. However, to make sense out of so much color when one knows only black-and-white can take quite a bit of work, but this process is far easier than continually trying to survive and function while living in the altered state of consciousness that is depression.
Maybe the most successful treatment for MDD and BD will come from a biological intervention other than administering drugs.
- Scott
Posted by bleauberry on December 23, 2010, at 8:04:23
In reply to Re: *Not* Thinking in terms of meds » bleauberry, posted by SLS on December 22, 2010, at 12:05:24
> > I do believe that when we pin all our hopes on pills, we are indeed engaging in maladaptive behavior...
>
> Who is "we"?
>
> Perhaps you could describe your personal experiences with depressive illness and take ownership of them rather than to generalize them to everyone else. You might have a better chance of uncovering your own truth.
>Who is we? Well, all of us. If someone doesn't fit into that, they can say so. Show me someone here who is not relying 99% on some medication to end their suffering and I'll change the word "we" to "some".
I do not see that as maladaptive, but rather reality and literalville. Maladaptive is when we reject reality.
> I think that habitually speaking for everyone else is maladaptive.
>
> But that's just me.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by SLS on December 23, 2010, at 11:39:36
In reply to Re: *Not* Thinking in terms of meds » SLS, posted by bleauberry on December 23, 2010, at 8:04:23
> > > I do believe that when we pin all our hopes on pills, we are indeed engaging in maladaptive behavior...
> > Who is "we"?
> Well, all of us.
Want a bet?
> If someone doesn't fit into that, they can say so.
So.
> Show me someone here who is not relying 99% on some medication to end their suffering and I'll change the word "we" to "some".
What is your point?
What is the significance that the majority of the membership of an Internet forum about mental illness should choose to treat that illness? Isn't it maladaptive for someone to choose not to treat their illness when doing so offers the possibility of ending suffering and returning function?
> I do not see that as maladaptive,...
You don't see what as being maladaptive? I am confused.
> Maladaptive is when we reject reality.
There is that word "we" again. I reject that your presumptions to ascertain reality includes me.
I think maladaptive is when "we" reject medical treatment in favor of abstractions in philosophy.
> > I think that habitually speaking for everyone else is maladaptive.
> >
> > But that's just me.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
- Scott
Posted by jerryTRD on December 23, 2010, at 12:53:13
In reply to Re: *Not* Thinking in terms of meds » linkadge, posted by SLS on December 23, 2010, at 4:43:03
> > Does anybody here find themselves continually thinking about all of their problems in terms of medications?
>
> I find myself continually thinking about the way depression pervades my existence - not medications. Every conscious experience is tainted or muted by depression, so it is difficult not to focus all of one's energies on searching for a cure. I don't think focus equates to obsession.
>
> Where I think you are correct is in describing a scenario in which someone becomes obsessed with self-medicating and evaluating the results minute-by-minute instead of week by week. It is a nasty ride. However, never-ending pain and desperation can lead people to behave in ways that had not been characteristic of them in the past.
>
> For at least some people, all that is needed to facilitate the recovery process from MDD or BD is a single pill. The effects of depression are profound. They can make someone feel dead inside. Equally profound in magnitude are the effects of successful antidepressant treatment. One becomes alive inside. It is an awakening. The resolution of depression leaves available to one their full potential to deal with issues and even live happily ever after.
>
> I experienced a complete remission of my depressive disorder for nine months as the consequence of taking a combination of two pills. I might have been well for the last two decades had my doctor not elected to discontinue treatment. It is hard not to notice when a world of black-and-white becomes a magnificent kaleidoscope of color. However, to make sense out of so much color when one knows only black-and-white can take quite a bit of work, but this process is far easier than continually trying to survive and function while living in the altered state of consciousness that is depression.
>
> Maybe the most successful treatment for MDD and BD will come from a biological intervention other than administering drugs.
>
>
> - Scott
>
>Scott I totally agree with you. When I was first diagnosed with MDD 20 years ago my doc put me on 75mg of Trazadone. Within 2 weeks I was alive again and I just keept thinking - this is the way I SHOULD be feeling and hsould have been feeling my entire life. I fell in love that summer and had the greatest outlook on life. However, I complained one time to my doc that the med was causing too much drowsiness and he said "You're back on track so just stop the trazadone." So I did.
Two weeks later I was deep in depression again. We started the Trazadone again but no effect - upped the dose to 300mg and nothing. From then on nothing worked for me.
So I have no problem hoping a new medication will come out that will get me back the way I was that summer and give me my life back. I admit I was obsessed for a time that just a pill would cure all -but now I don't - but I do believe that it's a great part of helping me to get out of this darkness and pain.
Also, since the dawn of the internet, we're much more informed about our illnesses and their treatments. I can see though, with all the info on the internet and TV commercials - how someone could become hyper-focused on medication as a cure-all. But do I blame them? I can't - because at one point in my life a single medication DID cure my depression. How can I damn someone who has hopes the same will happen for them?
Medications and therapy and a handful of alternative treatments are all we have to hold on to until they figure out the brain. People in mental anguish have every right in my opinion to put there hopes into medication and therapy - it's all we have.
Link said he just walked into a coffeshop and started conversing with people and now regularly continues to visit this spot and it's helping him great deal. I am happy for him - very happy. But I feel his message to "us" is an overgeneralization and when you get right down to it - just because something works for you doesn't mean it'll work for everyone else.
I understand his point, however I believe he could have presented it in a less demeaning manner to the members of this message board.
Posted by jerryTRD on December 23, 2010, at 13:00:38
In reply to Re: *Not* Thinking in terms of meds » bleauberry, posted by SLS on December 23, 2010, at 11:39:36
> > > > I do believe that when we pin all our hopes on pills, we are indeed engaging in maladaptive behavior...
>
> > > Who is "we"?
>
> > Well, all of us.
>
> Want a bet?
>
> > If someone doesn't fit into that, they can say so.
>
> So.
>
> > Show me someone here who is not relying 99% on some medication to end their suffering and I'll change the word "we" to "some".
>
> What is your point?
>
> What is the significance that the majority of the membership of an Internet forum about mental illness should choose to treat that illness? Isn't it maladaptive for someone to choose not to treat their illness when doing so offers the possibility of ending suffering and returning function?
>
> > I do not see that as maladaptive,...
>
> You don't see what as being maladaptive? I am confused.
>
> > Maladaptive is when we reject reality.
>
> There is that word "we" again. I reject that your presumptions to ascertain reality includes me.
>
> I think maladaptive is when "we" reject medical treatment in favor of abstractions in philosophy.
>
> > > I think that habitually speaking for everyone else is maladaptive.
> > >
> > > But that's just me.
> > >
> > >
> > > - Scott
>
>
> - ScottExactly Scott. As i stated in some earlier posts, I don't think some members here who are labeling "us" as "maladaptive" would label cancer patients, those with HIV, Asthma, diabetes, Alzheimer's, COPD, et ,etc as maladaptive for relying on their medications to survive. Why are people with depression any different? This just ignites more stigma within our community and really saddens me to know there are people with mental illnesses who think others in the same situation should snap out of it because it's all in our heads. Just sad.
Posted by morgan miller on December 23, 2010, at 21:44:35
In reply to Re: *Not* Thinking in terms of meds » bleauberry, posted by SLS on December 23, 2010, at 11:39:36
>> Show me someone here who is not relying 99% on some medication to end their suffering and I'll change the word "we" to "some".
Here meaning the medication board? I'm assuming so. I go to therapy. I'm taking action to try to get to the bottom of whether I may have some condition causing my fatigue. I take supplements and have a VERY good diet. I will be exercising more when I am not feeling so F*CK*D up. I go to the steam room, stretch, then hit a freezing cold shower 3 to 4 times a week. I will be getting massage therapy and seeing a chiropractor and other specialists to try to heal my musculoskeletal issues.
I believe there are several others that I know of that have talked of their comprehensive and integrative approach to getting better, three of them being Thomatheus, Hombre, and Bleauberry.
Posted by morgan miller on December 23, 2010, at 21:48:41
In reply to Re: *Not* Thinking in terms of meds, posted by morgan miller on December 23, 2010, at 21:44:35
I forgot to mention, I've dated two girls who I met at work in the last 6 months, one of them I'm currently dating. They know what's going on with me and spend time with me even when I am feeling really bad. I could totally isolate myself but I don't. Despite spending time with someone I enjoy the presence of, I still am depressed and feel like utter sh*t. I will admit there are times where spending time with someone has helped, but only temporarily.
Posted by linkadge on December 24, 2010, at 13:07:15
In reply to Are cancer patients maladaptive too? Dble standard, posted by jerryTRD on December 23, 2010, at 13:00:38
>As i stated in some earlier posts, I don't think >some members here who are labeling "us" >as "maladaptive" would label cancer patients, >those with HIV, Asthma, diabetes, Alzheimer's, >COPD, et ,etc as maladaptive for relying on >their medications to survive. Why are people >with depression any different?
Depression is different because it is not as well understood as these other disorders. Asthama, diabetes, HIV etc. do not have high rates of sponanious remission. With these diseases, there is no evidence that psychological intervention does much of anything for the core disease. With depression it is very different. No body organ is more responsive to a patient's own willpower than the brain. For many patients there is evidence to suggest that psychotherapy is as/more effective at treating and preventing future episodes of depression then medications (yeah yeah, I know - gimme the drugs cause that CBT crap doesn't do anything for me). I guess thats what I am trying to say here. If your own will power is eroded by the belief that medications will solve all your problems than you really have destroyed your most powerful asset.
Its about external vs. internal locus of self control. Many of us here have resolved that we simply do not have the faculties necessary to ever feel well on our own. We resolve that becuase our brains are so inherently dysfunctional, medication is the only way to improve.
An asthama patient cannot will their lungs back into proper function. However a depressed patient can, to varying extents, change their brain through willpower. Again, I am not telling patients they can just "snap out of it". What I am saying is that when you put all of your hope in medications; when you come to this board religiously expecting all forms of mental and emotional pain to be abolished with the submissive ingestion of a drug, you don't do much to strengthen the connections that can derive hope and pleasure from other aspects of life.
- Do you find yourself deriving more pleasure from the anticipation of trying a new medication than you actually feel satisfied or relieved by actually taking the medication?
- Do you find yourself needing to continually change your medication simply because you get bored and want to try something new?
I personally think that this behavior is exclusive to psychiatric patients. You never hear of a patient getting bored with their current blood pressure medication and want to try something new. With psychiatric medications, the allure is that you are affecting the mind, the very organ that assigns meaning to every other aspect of life. The idea that you can entirely change your life by chaning a medication is very seductive.
If it were as simple as somebody taking a antidepressant and getting back to their life, then there would be no issue. The problem is that these medications affect subtle aspects of judgment, motivation, reward, personality etc. As soon as you put a drug into the equation, you dramatically change the equation.
Even if there is a gene, or genes invovled in the developement of depression, current research is finding an incredable epigenic componenet to the manifestation of disease. Through environmental manipulation, you can literally change the way that genes express themselves. Sure, maybe you do have a depression gene. But maybe, given the right conditions, protective genes become more dominant.
Let me respond to "are cancer patients maladaptive too".
This is not a double standard. While there is a plethora of evidence on the lifestyle interventions that are capable of preventing cancer, there is little conclusive research that such non drug interventions are capable of treating cancer. As such, as far as cancer goes, once you have it, following the doctors orders may be your best bet.
However, if a cancer patient was spending most of his or her time obsessively researching new treatments for cancer - convincing himself that he more completely understands the disease mechanisms than his doctor, going against the doctor's recomendations to obtain such treatments and thus neglecting to spend time getting healthful exercise, relaxation and social interaction then yes this cancer patient's strategy would be maladaptive.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on December 25, 2010, at 8:10:04
In reply to Re: Are cancer patients maladaptive too? Dble standard, posted by linkadge on December 24, 2010, at 13:07:15
Hi Linkadge.
That was a well-conceived post. I wish that it were all true. I have worked my butt off in various psychotherapies, and have applied the lessons learned to my everyday life. Because of this, I believe that I am maximizing my quality of life despite the lack of improvement in my depressive illness.
I do think that we need to refine our nomenclature when the word "depression" is used without any further qualifications. When you speak of depression, what exactly is the condition that you are describing? Is there a difference among its uses in our conversations? What, precisely, is your description of major depressive disorder MDD? In what ways is it the same or different from the depression that you refer to?
- Scott
Posted by violette on December 26, 2010, at 9:17:54
In reply to Are cancer patients maladaptive too? Dble standard, posted by jerryTRD on December 23, 2010, at 13:00:38
> Maladaptive is when we reject reality.
That's where it gets problematic and why these types of discussions can be fruitful. Someone who is in denial does not know (and thus will not admit to themself) they have maladaptive behavior to begin with.
Stating that a person may be in denial is not saying that a person is *refuting* they may have an emotional source of their mental illness. In psychologcial terms, denial does not mean, but it can, that one is cognitively 'denying' the existence of something such as emotional problems; it means that someone is consciously unaware of the existence of something-the correct technical term is disavow...People in psychotherapy can still be in 'denial' about emotions.
And someone in denial can become upset when their view of reality is threatened. It can also be *dangerous* when things said or pointed out by another threaten the sustainment of that person's (disavowment of) reality, depending on how severe a person's pathology is. Expecially if they live alone, have aggressive tendencies, have no doctor...people have been known to get violent when this happens, such as when a spouse might call them on it. Others can regress etc.
BUT sometimes a psychotic breakthrough happens when someone is coming out of denial, which lets previously disavowed emotions back into their reality, and sets them on a road to recovery. If a person is under proper care, a psychotic breakthrough can br a *good* thing.....its best to let disavowed emotions slowly seep into consciousness, with the safety of a therapist, but it doesn't always happen that way.
Also, a person can merge their identity with their illness after time, which is what Linkadge described earlier.... The illness becomes part of them, and it cannot be seperated from their sense of self. In this case, someone who is no longer able to for example 'search for medications over and over' will lose their identity, their sense of self-the brain will tirelessly protect its sense of self-it is instinctual; sometimes compulsive behavior (not necessarily OCPD) is how it does this (the amygdala is involved in preserving the self). Loss of sense of self can be viewed as psychosis. In cases like this, I believe, psychoanalytic therapy is the *only* way to treat it, unless the person ultimately has a psychotic breakthrough. People can be in psychotherapy and still be in denial but it is nearly impossible to do this in psychoanalytic therapy. And psychoanalytic therapy can be more dangereous than medication trials if mistakes are made.
There is much less stigma, less pain, and it is less threatening to the psyche to think of mental illness in the context of biology only. People search for medications to get better-to end the pain--but sometimes it can actually be prolonging the pain. It is definitely a very intelligent and appropriate question to ask at a place like this. Especially if you've had mental health problems for years and years.
I am saying it could be possible for some people, and thinking in terms of those i've seen this happen to in real life and also case studies i've read in psychodynamic manuals and literature. (The psychodynamic/psychoanalytic approach treats patients holistically rather than treating only symptoms as many biological-only psychiatrists are trained to do).
I also agree that cancer patients can have maladaptive behavior, anyone can for any illness. But there seems to be more incentives for the psyche to develop maladaptive behavior in terms of mental illness.
Posted by SLS on December 26, 2010, at 11:49:33
In reply to Re: Are cancer patients maladaptive too? Dble standard, posted by violette on December 26, 2010, at 9:17:54
> > Maladaptive is when we reject reality.
> That's where it gets problematic and why these types of discussions can be fruitful.
Is it possible that any one person can understand reality enough to reject it?
> Someone who is in denial does not know (and thus will not admit to themself) they have maladaptive behavior to begin with.
How do you know when someone is in denial?
> And someone in denial can become upset when their view of reality is threatened.
I know this isn't about me, but I am curious, as you have read enough of my stuff, do you feel that I am in denial since I know that a single pill is capable of bringing someone into remission from MDD? This is my reality. It is also the reality of a great many other sufferers.
Is there something about the existence of a primary brain malfunction manifesting as MDD that you find unappealing? I do not find anything unappealing about treating depression using psychological methods - especially when it works. For me, this is not an either-or debate about what we colloquially describe as depression and how it is best treated. There are different subtypes of depression as there are different types of cancer. Each type will be amenable to different treatments.
> Also, a person can merge their identity with their illness after time
Certainly. I did this for at least 20 years.
> The illness becomes part of them, and it cannot be seperated from their sense of self.
Not even with the application of psychotherapeutics?
> In this case, someone who is no longer able to for example 'search for medications over and over' will lose their identity,
Or perhaps rediscover it.
My posture is very defensive when people try to apply a schema of psychological pathology to every case of depression. This is a very dangerous falsehood that can lead to suicide. I am quick to become defensive on behalf of those people with biological mental illnesses whom are told otherwise. My being defensive is NOT the result of a perceived assault on my reality. The disease I suffer from is hideously painful and functionally debilitating. It is actually a form of mental suppression or mental oppression rather than mental depression. I just want to get well. I am using every precious thought to facilitate this. For people who are unwilling to embrace the existence of subtypes of depression that are caused by abnormalities in brain function and that are treatable with biological interventions, I am sad. I remember what it was like near the beginning of the establishment of biological psychiatry and psychopharmacology. I had to defend myself not only against the stigma and misconception of the illness, but of its phenomenology and treatment. In the 1980's, some very smart research clinicians could not commit to diagnosing anyone as having a predominantly biological mental illness, despite what their eyes witnessed right in front of them. Drugs can work. ECT can work. Sleep deprivation can work. Insulin shock can work. How does ECT penetrate the psyche to change the dynamics of denial such that it disappears? Does the ECT machinery have to know what the patient's issues are in order for it to work for them? What is true is that the remission of MDD accomplished through biological interventions can finally allow a patient to attack their previously refractory issues with success, whether it be with or without a professional psychotherapist.
- Scott
Posted by morgan miller on December 26, 2010, at 12:55:30
In reply to Re: Are cancer patients maladaptive too? Dble standard » violette, posted by SLS on December 26, 2010, at 11:49:33
>How do you know when someone is in denial?
I'm sure Violette will have a good answer, but I'm going to also take a stab at this one. I believe many people that are close to someone start to realize they are in denial. In the case of a therapist/patient relationship, the therapist realizes the extent of denial their patient is in as the patient reveals more and more about their life and childhood. The therapist has the expertise to know that we just do not escape certain inadequacies or traumas during developmental periods of life without them having some kind of detrimental lasting effect on our psyche and brain chemistry(Scott, I know you and I have discussed this before). It becomes very evident that when the patient either is not fully aware of the impact these things had on them or the completely deny the impact, they are in denial. Then there are friends and family that have personal knowledge of the person they are close to, that know there is something wrong in this person's life, that know this person could be more aware of their own reality, but continue to deny anything these realities.
There are certainly cases where it may not be very clear that someone is in denial. I think this is when no one is sure if there is really anything to be in denial of. In terms of what is being talked about in this thread, if there is no reason to believe that something else besides biology is at the root of one's depression, than there is no reason to believe that one might be in denial of the possibility that there may be other contributing factors than biology. Sorry Scott, I'm not talking about you here, just thought it was a pertinent example for the discussion : ) I also may have stated the obvious to everyone. If I did, sorry if you find yourself saying, "Ah, yeah, daah".
I believe there are levels of denial, some much deeper than others.
Posted by violette on December 26, 2010, at 14:57:02
In reply to Re: Are cancer patients maladaptive too? Dble standard » violette, posted by SLS on December 26, 2010, at 11:49:33
Hi SLS,
I wouldn't know if you personally were in denial. I just know it can be a possiblity for some people and that it does happen. You know how complex depression is..and people should know all the treatment options.
But people are not being told all the treatment options. If I had chronic high chloesteral and was given medication but not told by my dr how certain foods can raise cholesteral levels, i'd be angry. Other people might be told this information by their doctor, and choose to ignore it. Still, people suffering should be informed about the condition and the possible causes and treatments.
And as you might know, certain people have genetic tendencies where they can eat the most healthy diet, exercise every day - but still have high cholesteral! You have already said you've tried everything for depression, so maybe that is the case with you and your illness-that you just have the biological disposition and there will be a medication to turn it around, maybe genetic therapy, like the person with high cholesteral with the healthy lifestyle, who might have genetic cures someday to prolong their life.
But most people know that food affects our health. I am not so sure if most people know about being in denial, maladaptive behavior-and whether it applies to them because psychiatrists, in my experience and what i've read, do not usually talk about this to a patient. Or some may understand it at the rational level, but not get it at the emotional level. Rationalization is actually a major sign of denial. Rationalization is very common to people with addictions. And there are ways to rationalize all sorts of behavior. Rationalization could also be someone's nature and have nothing to do with illness, just as wine and vodka alone have nothing to do with addictions. It can be a tool though.
i just know that it is nearly impossible to remain in denial while doing pscyhoanalytic therapy. The only way to know if one is in denail is to try this, but as i mentioned, it can be dangerous. It's unfortuante that psychonalytic therapy basically got a bad rap when health care expenses grew and after 2nd generation antidepressants were rx'd for mainstream use.
If someone who lives a mental illness free life in other ways has a fear of flying - people might agree that is a psychological illness (a phobia). It might not affect someone's life so much. But if someone gets a job that requires air travel, maybe CBT can help them overcome it and they would try the therapy. But-a fear of flying can be a symptom of something else-a fear of not being in control-resulting from disavowed childhood trauma. It could grow to fear of elevators, fear of riding on public transportation vehicles and extend to fear of being in relationships. Soemone in that situation might need more intense treatmetn that gets to the root of the phobia-the fear of being controlled by another rather than CBT therapy which is used to redirect thoughts.
I think depression can be a symptom of other things, just like the phobia. Because depression is more complex, it can take much longer to discover a treatment that works. Like fear of airplanes is a psychological issue, denial is a psychological issue. Denial has less to do with biology, other than how your brain has chosen to deal with emotional content. The next person might choose to drink alcohol to disavow emotions, ect. Of course depression can be a symptom of heart disease and many other medical issues. Searching for meds can be a good thing as you pointed out, a strong will to get better. I am only rreferring to maladaptive behavior associated with denial, not the other things.
The main point is that the possibility exists that some who have mental illness for many years could use this forum or an endless search for meds (or many other things) to remain in denial. In fact, it might actually be scary to be well, as irrational as that sounds-for someone who's only known a life of depression. And for some who think this could be relevant to their illness, and who haven't exhausted all their options, they might want to try psychoanalytic therapy as another option-because as i said before, it's nearly impossible to be in this therapy and denial at the same time. Since PA is looked down by some professionals or because it is very costly and time consuming, it is sometimes ignored.
That's all i'm saying. People can try PA and still search for medications and still take medications. A person would then know they were formerly in denial if after starting this therapy, they become less and less interested in searching for, talking about, reading about, medications. I don't think anyone knows they are in denial until they have actually come out of denial.
And by the way - when i came here first searching for medication information, i was triggered by some of the posts here. Especially ones that said peoples' illnesses are only a result of chemistry, other things of that nature. Imagine coming back from a war zone, suffering from PTSD, looking for medication help-then coming across posts (proably not ones written by you) that say brain chemistry is the only source of mental illness. Some might be not be bothered by this, but i can say this from personal experience, for me, it used to be like hearing that the traumas experienced have nothing to do with your illness, your suffering. the atrocities you bore witness to or were forced to take part in-doesn't 'count'. Cruel, sometimes sadistic torture does not cause mental illness-it's really all about chemicals, neurotransmitters. There is something wrong with you for having such disabling symptoms, since others came back from the same experiences without PTSD. The emotional triggers, the stigma, works both ways. as someone who has experienced emotional triggers repeatedly, i do understand why you or others would be upset by some of the content of the posts you read here.
Posted by violette on December 26, 2010, at 15:09:36
In reply to Re: Are cancer patients maladaptive too? Dble standard, posted by violette on December 26, 2010, at 9:17:54
About rationalization - people sometimes will argue their claim by posting research that shows ___ fill in the blank.
But - in the next post, use the argument "well, everyone's different", to back up a claim. People can't have it both ways - either everyone has similar qualities or the evidence posted cannot possibly apply to everyone here.
Many of us know about the imperfections of research but I'd say someone who does this MIGHT be using rationalization as a defense and might be in denial. I have no idea who does this, i just have seen it before here and elsewhere.
Posted by emmanuel98 on December 26, 2010, at 20:09:02
In reply to Re: Are cancer patients maladaptive too? Dble standard, posted by violette on December 26, 2010, at 15:09:36
I'd just like to point out that, while psychodynamic therapy is expensive, it is a lot less expensive than hospitalizations for depression and suicide attempts, ECT or other interventions. My insurance company is happy to pay for therapy if only to keep me out of the hospital.
Posted by Maxime on December 26, 2010, at 22:33:01
In reply to Re: *Not* Thinking in terms of meds, posted by morgan miller on December 23, 2010, at 21:44:35
>> Show me someone here who is not relying 99% on some medication to end their suffering and I'll change the word "we" to "some".
I do talk therapy with my psychiatrist, although I have to admit it would be better if I had a psychologist. I can't afford one. The psychiatrist is covered by medicare.
I volunteer, and I work. It would be much easier to stay in bed all day, but working helps me more because it gives my life meaning. Working is not easy though especially since I am teaching. I have to pretend to be happy all the time which drains me SO much. I have cognitive problems from the depression, and it can be really difficult when I am teaching and I can't remember what I just said. Most days I don't want to go to work (or rather get out of bed), but I think of the seniors I am teaching that forces me to get up.
I wish I could go running, but I have not built up the motivation to do that yet. But I do walk my dog twice a day.
So yeah, I don't just rely on meds especially since they do not work that well for me.
Posted by SLS on December 27, 2010, at 12:40:43
In reply to Re: Are cancer patients maladaptive too? Dble standard, posted by morgan miller on December 26, 2010, at 12:55:30
> > How do you know when someone is in denial?
> I believe many people that are close to someone start to realize they are in denial.Okay, then. How do you know when someone is in denial about others not being in denial?
- Scott
Posted by ed_uk2010 on December 27, 2010, at 14:25:24
In reply to Re: Are cancer patients maladaptive too? Dble standard, posted by violette on December 26, 2010, at 15:09:36
Not sure whether I'm in denial, but there are certainly things which I ought to be thinking about which I'm not.
Posted by morgan miller on December 27, 2010, at 21:07:12
In reply to Re: Are cancer patients maladaptive too? Dble standard » morgan miller, posted by SLS on December 27, 2010, at 12:40:43
> > > How do you know when someone is in denial?
>
> > I believe many people that are close to someone start to realize they are in denial.
>
> Okay, then. How do you know when someone is in denial about others not being in denial?
>
>
> - Scott
>You're funny dude
Posted by jerryTRD on December 28, 2010, at 19:55:29
In reply to In denial?, posted by ed_uk2010 on December 27, 2010, at 14:25:24
> Not sure whether I'm in denial, but there are certainly things which I ought to be thinking about which I'm not.
I'd have to agree with Ed. I don't think I'm in denial, but I do think I could work more on other avenues - i.e. therapy, support groups, etc.
Posted by jerryTRD on December 28, 2010, at 20:07:11
In reply to Re: *Not* Thinking in terms of meds, posted by morgan miller on December 23, 2010, at 21:44:35
> >> Show me someone here who is not relying 99% on some medication to end their suffering and I'll change the word "we" to "some".
>
> Here meaning the medication board? I'm assuming so. I go to therapy. I'm taking action to try to get to the bottom of whether I may have some condition causing my fatigue. I take supplements and have a VERY good diet. I will be exercising more when I am not feeling so F*CK*D up. I go to the steam room, stretch, then hit a freezing cold shower 3 to 4 times a week. I will be getting massage therapy and seeing a chiropractor and other specialists to try to heal my musculoskeletal issues.
>
> I believe there are several others that I know of that have talked of their comprehensive and integrative approach to getting better, three of them being Thomatheus, Hombre, and Bleauberry.I finally found a doctor who wanted to run the gambit of blood tests to find out if anything more "biological" was fueling my depression. Found out I had low thyroid and low testosterone both of which can/do contribute to depression. I also have sleep apnea which was found out recently as well.
So I'm still confused - because of my reliance on testosterone replacement, synthroid, and a CPAP machine - does that make me maladaptive, out of touch with reality, etc?
I also have a chiropractor and I take some supplements to help aid my depression.
So I guess I'm still confused if I am putting too much emphasis on non-traditional treatments - meaning NOT on AD meds.
?
Posted by jerryTRD on December 28, 2010, at 20:25:51
In reply to Re: Are cancer patients maladaptive too? Dble standard » violette, posted by SLS on December 26, 2010, at 11:49:33
> > > Maladaptive is when we reject reality.
>
> > That's where it gets problematic and why these types of discussions can be fruitful.
>
> Is it possible that any one person can understand reality enough to reject it?
>
> > Someone who is in denial does not know (and thus will not admit to themself) they have maladaptive behavior to begin with.
>
> How do you know when someone is in denial?
>
> > And someone in denial can become upset when their view of reality is threatened.
>
> I know this isn't about me, but I am curious, as you have read enough of my stuff, do you feel that I am in denial since I know that a single pill is capable of bringing someone into remission from MDD? This is my reality. It is also the reality of a great many other sufferers.
>
> Is there something about the existence of a primary brain malfunction manifesting as MDD that you find unappealing? I do not find anything unappealing about treating depression using psychological methods - especially when it works. For me, this is not an either-or debate about what we colloquially describe as depression and how it is best treated. There are different subtypes of depression as there are different types of cancer. Each type will be amenable to different treatments.
>
> > Also, a person can merge their identity with their illness after time
>
> Certainly. I did this for at least 20 years.
>
> > The illness becomes part of them, and it cannot be seperated from their sense of self.
>
> Not even with the application of psychotherapeutics?
>
> > In this case, someone who is no longer able to for example 'search for medications over and over' will lose their identity,
>
> Or perhaps rediscover it.
>
> My posture is very defensive when people try to apply a schema of psychological pathology to every case of depression. This is a very dangerous falsehood that can lead to suicide. I am quick to become defensive on behalf of those people with biological mental illnesses whom are told otherwise. My being defensive is NOT the result of a perceived assault on my reality. The disease I suffer from is hideously painful and functionally debilitating. It is actually a form of mental suppression or mental oppression rather than mental depression. I just want to get well. I am using every precious thought to facilitate this. For people who are unwilling to embrace the existence of subtypes of depression that are caused by abnormalities in brain function and that are treatable with biological interventions, I am sad. I remember what it was like near the beginning of the establishment of biological psychiatry and psychopharmacology. I had to defend myself not only against the stigma and misconception of the illness, but of its phenomenology and treatment. In the 1980's, some very smart research clinicians could not commit to diagnosing anyone as having a predominantly biological mental illness, despite what their eyes witnessed right in front of them. Drugs can work. ECT can work. Sleep deprivation can work. Insulin shock can work. How does ECT penetrate the psyche to change the dynamics of denial such that it disappears? Does the ECT machinery have to know what the patient's issues are in order for it to work for them? What is true is that the remission of MDD accomplished through biological interventions can finally allow a patient to attack their previously refractory issues with success, whether it be with or without a professional psychotherapist.
>
>
> - Scott
You would think after having my *doctors* try me on every different med cocktail out there that I'd be completely against meds. But as I wrote in an earlier post, when I was first diagnosed and treated with 75mg of Trazadone, I felt for the first time that I was better and I moved on with my life, fell in love, got a job, and never really thought about having to take a med for depression. But when my doctor told me to stop it because HE thought I was "back on track" I quickly fell deeper into darkness. From there on nothing worked the same. But am I to be damned for wanting/hoping for a med that would do the same when it happened before?I'll admit there was a time when I thought meds would fix it all, but through therapy I cam to the realization that they wouldn't. However, I still hope for a new med, not because I'm bored with the ones I'm on now and just want to try a new one. But instead in hopes that it will help end the agony I live everyday.
I'm not in denial. I have not lost my sense of reality - but instead focus on the reality of things too much. I'm not maladaptive, but I'll admit I sometimes I find myself focusing too much on the medication side of things only because I've found the reality of therapeutic techniques at least for me - don't work or haven't worked.
I see a psychologist monthly, a case worker weekly and attend an out-patient support group daily.
I think it's important to note that if I skip out on my support group, I'll tend to isolate more, and the same goes for taking my meds. If I skip a couple days because I either forgot or just didn't think they were working at all - I'll tend to become more depressed and isolate as well. So for me they work symbiotically.
I identify with your posts Scott 100% but haven't been able to write from my point of view so succinctly and to the point as you have done time and time again.
I guess I'm saying I completely agree with everything you're posting. However, I'm not considered as part of this message board's intelligentsia as you are so I believe my comments, posts and views are not received so well or even read.
I do appreciate your posts and how you perceive MDD and its subtypes.
Thank you.
Jerry
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