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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by hansi555 on December 4, 2010, at 13:19:14
Hi all
After a 28 week period of constant and slowly tapering from 110 mg Noritren, 10 mg Lexapro and 12 mg Mirtazapin to now nothing, I have run into a serious setback.
During the first 80% of this period I have generally felt better than on most of the time when on the meds on a 100% dosis.I have felt small mood swings, change in sleep etc. but nothing too serious untill approx. 3 weeks ago.
My mood has become less and less good/normal, crying spells have emerged, sleeping is worse (espsecially since I completely dropped the Mirt 2 weeks ago) and appetite is less in periods.
Of all these symptoms the feeling low is by far the most troublesome, also christmas is coming now, 2 small girls, wife etc.I have been on meds for almost 3 years but they never really helped me to a satisfying result in any way. After reading the book "Anatomy of an epidemic" by R. Whitaker I was (and still is) convinced that the meds will not help but indeed make things worse when used over many years.
However I am suspecting that I may have been to ambisious and too quickly at the end of the taper. My question now is if I should:
1) Just stay off the meds and be patient and believe that it is "only" a question of time, weeks or months
2) Move back some weeks to a minimum dosis and then try tappering off again in a slower manner
?
Posted by ed_uk2010 on December 4, 2010, at 14:01:13
In reply to Tapering off problems - what to do?, posted by hansi555 on December 4, 2010, at 13:19:14
>Move back some weeks to a minimum dose and then try tapering off again in a slower manner
It's really up to you, but why not go back on a low dose of one of your antidepressants, but not all three. Which do you think was the most helpful with the fewest side effects?
>After reading the book "Anatomy of an epidemic" by R. Whitaker I was (and still is) convinced that the meds will not help but indeed make things worse when used over many years.
Controversial. You could read another book and come out with an entirely different point of view. Do what's best for you.
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 4, 2010, at 14:40:21
In reply to Re: Tapering off problems - what to do?, posted by ed_uk2010 on December 4, 2010, at 14:01:13
> >Move back some weeks to a minimum dose and then try tapering off again in a slower manner
>
> It's really up to you, but why not go back on a low dose of one of your antidepressants, but not all three. Which do you think was the most helpful with the fewest side effects?
>
> >After reading the book "Anatomy of an epidemic" by R. Whitaker I was (and still is) convinced that the meds will not help but indeed make things worse when used over many years.
>
> Controversial. You could read another book and come out with an entirely different point of view. Do what's best for you.ed_uk2010,
You wrote,[...another book...entirely different point of view...]
I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean here as the poster cited Whitaker's book. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
1A. Is there a book that you know of that refutes the thesis of the Whitaker book cited here?
2A. If so, could you post the title of the book here?
1B. There are facts in the Whitaker book cited here. Have you read the book?
2B. If you have not read the book, could you post here your rationale, if any, for stating that there could be another book with an entirely different point of view?
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 4, 2010, at 15:12:14
In reply to Tapering off problems - what to do?, posted by hansi555 on December 4, 2010, at 13:19:14
> Hi all
> After a 28 week period of constant and slowly tapering from 110 mg Noritren, 10 mg Lexapro and 12 mg Mirtazapin to now nothing, I have run into a serious setback.
> During the first 80% of this period I have generally felt better than on most of the time when on the meds on a 100% dosis.
>
> I have felt small mood swings, change in sleep etc. but nothing too serious untill approx. 3 weeks ago.
> My mood has become less and less good/normal, crying spells have emerged, sleeping is worse (espsecially since I completely dropped the Mirt 2 weeks ago) and appetite is less in periods.
> Of all these symptoms the feeling low is by far the most troublesome, also christmas is coming now, 2 small girls, wife etc.
>
> I have been on meds for almost 3 years but they never really helped me to a satisfying result in any way. After reading the book "Anatomy of an epidemic" by R. Whitaker I was (and still is) convinced that the meds will not help but indeed make things worse when used over many years.
>
> However I am suspecting that I may have been to ambisious and too quickly at the end of the taper. My question now is if I should:
>
> 1) Just stay off the meds and be patient and believe that it is "only" a question of time, weeks or months
> 2) Move back some weeks to a minimum dosis and then try tappering off again in a slower manner
> ?
>hansi555,
You wrote,[...after reading (the Whiaker book)..convinced that meds will not help..make things worse...my question (stay off or go back)?]
Whitaker lists a lot of facts. There are numerous studies that substantiate those facts also. There are many psychiatrists that agree with Whitaker. Facts are facts and they are what they are. Could you list some of the facts that you think could be helpful to others so that they could make a more informed decision as to either take mind-altering drugs or not? (for every one you give me, I'll give you three).
Now the stats that I have say that about 40,000 people die each year from psychotropic drugs as by one way or another. This figure could be just in the U.S. If it is, then world-wide the figure could be 500,000 or more that die each year from one way or another from psychotropic drugs. This means that if the rate of deaths are progressive, my calculations could come up with that going forward there could be millions of people that could die from one way or another from psychotropic drugs.
Now if death is a priority to you, then your question can be answerd by me. You see, there is the risk of sudden death to people that take psychotropic drugs. They die from "cardiac arrest" and other causes that are also "natural causes" of death. But what caused the cardiac arrest? If the body is not subjected to finding out because the family did not request such, then the figure of 40,000 people that die each year could be underestimated by in some people's thinking to be 100 to 1. That meaqns under those conditions 400,000 people die each year, not 40,000.
Now the risk of death is one aspect, but there is also the risk of obtaining a life-ruining condition from these drugs. I'm talking about brain damage and dystonia and Parkinsom's-like disease and diabetes and stevens-johnson syndrome and a host of other life-ruining conditions.
Then there is your question. A question that could mark the difference between IMHO life and death. To stop or go back, that is the question.
Lou
Posted by hansi555 on December 4, 2010, at 16:58:02
In reply to Lou's response-krozrhodes » hansi555, posted by Lou Pilder on December 4, 2010, at 15:12:14
Okay Lou thanks
I think we agree on the no-drug way to go
But I would just like an answer to my question still...
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 4, 2010, at 17:19:21
In reply to Re: Lou's response-krozrhodes, posted by hansi555 on December 4, 2010, at 16:58:02
> Okay Lou thanks
> I think we agree on the no-drug way to go
> But I would just like an answer to my question still...hansi555,
Please keep in mind that I am told my Mr. Hsiung that I can not tell you where you can find information that he says is prohibited to post here. There is a post by Mr. Hsiung to me that states that he would expel from the community if I was to post the foundation of Judaism in repect that the God that I give sevice and worship to has given me a commandment that I believe through revelation that I (redacted by respondent). The other and others involve me posting information concerning nerve agents in relation to the historical development and uses of a particular time that I am not permitted to use the word of those that represented that era of time. This leaves a large void in history that some say is the most important historical time for humanity, a time to learn from what happened, a time to grow from there, a time to by understanding could IMHO mark the difference between life and death in reagrds to knowing the information concerning psychotropic mind-altering drugs. But it is IMHO much more than that. And how it could lead people to think about the Jews is involved as one could see in the ongoing requests from me to the administration that remain outstanding now.
I will try to answer your question because I think that the information could save your life or prevent you from getting a life-ruining condition.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 4, 2010, at 17:53:05
In reply to Lou's reply-tuornottu » hansi555, posted by Lou Pilder on December 4, 2010, at 17:19:21
> > Okay Lou thanks
> > I think we agree on the no-drug way to go
> > But I would just like an answer to my question still...
>
> hansi555,
> Please keep in mind that I am told my Mr. Hsiung that I can not tell you where you can find information that he says is prohibited to post here. There is a post by Mr. Hsiung to me that states that he would expel from the community if I was to post the foundation of Judaism in repect that the God that I give sevice and worship to has given me a commandment that I believe through revelation that I (redacted by respondent). The other and others involve me posting information concerning nerve agents in relation to the historical development and uses of a particular time that I am not permitted to use the word of those that represented that era of time. This leaves a large void in history that some say is the most important historical time for humanity, a time to learn from what happened, a time to grow from there, a time to by understanding could IMHO mark the difference between life and death in reagrds to knowing the information concerning psychotropic mind-altering drugs. But it is IMHO much more than that. And how it could lead people to think about the Jews is involved as one could see in the ongoing requests from me to the administration that remain outstanding now.
> I will try to answer your question because I think that the information could save your life or prevent you from getting a life-ruining condition.
> Louhansi555,
Now the question it to go the rest of the way or go back to the drugs in some way first.
My friend, when one has taken a mind-altering drug(s) and wants to be free from them, there could be a situation that could be so horrific when they try to be free from the drugs, that one would want to kill themselves.
This situation leads to wanting to withdrawal without walking through the fire. Or, a situation where one would want to walk through the fire and overcome the pain until they have been brought forth in victory, overcomming the addiction and withdrawal.
There is a chance, if one goes back to the drug(s) in hope of what is called tapering in hope of escaping the fire upon them, that they will still be having the chemicals in their nervous system and IMO still be subjected to the potential adverse reactions from the drug(s). That is a chance for death to happen or a life-ruining event from the drug(s).
Another way could be to take a stand for some reason and commit to not taking any chemical into your system and go through the fire of withdrawal, whatever it could be.
There has been revealed to me a way to go through the fire and not be burned. A way to have the shakles come off and be freed from the addiction and withdrawal. A way that one could come out of darkness and into a marvelous light. And one could sing a new song. A song of praise that they have life and life more abundantly.
Lou
Posted by Phillipa on December 4, 2010, at 18:51:42
In reply to Tapering off problems - what to do?, posted by hansi555 on December 4, 2010, at 13:19:14
Hansi whatever the last taper dose you were on and felt and were sleeping okay is where I'd return to and continue a slower taper from there. This is only my opinion. Good luck in whatever choice you make. Phillipa
Posted by 49er on December 5, 2010, at 14:13:39
In reply to Re: Tapering off problems - what to do? » hansi555, posted by Phillipa on December 4, 2010, at 18:51:42
> Hansi whatever the last taper dose you were on and felt and were sleeping okay is where I'd return to and continue a slower taper from there. This is only my opinion. Good luck in whatever choice you make. Phillipa
Hi Hansi,
I think Philipa has the right idea but I would like to know how long you have been off of meds? The reason I am asking is if you have been off longer than 3 months, reinstatement is usually not going to work.
Of course, there are not absolutes.
As an FYI, I successfully tapered off of 4 meds by gnerally tapering 10% of current dose every 3 to 6 weeks. Slow is the way to go in my opinion.
49er
Posted by hansi555 on December 5, 2010, at 16:28:29
In reply to Re: Tapering off problems - what to do? » Phillipa, posted by 49er on December 5, 2010, at 14:13:39
> > Hansi whatever the last taper dose you were on and felt and were sleeping okay is where I'd return to and continue a slower taper from there. This is only my opinion. Good luck in whatever choice you make. Phillipa
>
> Hi Hansi,
>
> I think Philipa has the right idea but I would like to know how long you have been off of meds? The reason I am asking is if you have been off longer than 3 months, reinstatement is usually not going to work.
>
> Of course, there are not absolutes.
>
> As an FYI, I successfully tapered off of 4 meds by gnerally tapering 10% of current dose every 3 to 6 weeks. Slow is the way to go in my opinion.
>
> 49er
>
>Hi 49er
Thanks for replyingI was down to nothing since 1 day ago. I did the taper like this: I started out on 110 mg Nort, 10 mg Lexapro and 12 mg Mirtazapin. I reduced the Lexapro to nothing over 14 weeks. Over the next 14 weeks I reduced the Nort to nothing. In the meantime - 28 weeks - I reduced the Mirt from 12 to 0 mg.
Maybe my mistakes are:
1) Doing it too fast, approx 3-4% off every week of total dose
2) Not removing one drug completely before moving to the next
What do you think?I have been on Mirtz for almost 3 years, Lexapro for 2,5 years and Nort for 2 years, starting with the Mirtz, then Lexapro and Nort.
I kinda suspect the Mirtz to be the most troublesome to taper but I dont know why - maybe because it is disturbing sleep and eating a lot even at very low doses...
Posted by fachad on December 8, 2010, at 19:54:32
In reply to Tapering off problems - what to do?, posted by hansi555 on December 4, 2010, at 13:19:14
My method in a nutshell:
1. determine the smallest increment you can reduce your dose by;
2. determine the half-life of your med;
3. drop one increment; wait 5 half-lives (to reach steady state); then wait 5 more half-lives to see if discontinuation symptoms develop;
4. if you are fine after 10 half lives, drop another increment.
**********
Here's what I wrote to someone else who asked about d/c clonazapam:
Discontinuation, just like iniation, is best done by the "start low, go slow" method.
Clonazapam is supplied in 0.25 mg tablets. I'd try to get those (#60 instead of #30 0.5mg tabs);
then I'd try to quarter them (that would give you 0.0625 chips);
then I'd reduce by one chip per 10 half lives...ok, clonazapam has a half life of 50 hours;
it takes 5 half-lives to reach a steady state concentration;
so after 10 days at 7 (seven) 0.0625 mg chips you are at steady state;
stay at steady state another 10 days to see if you have any problems;
then go down to 6 (six) 0.0625 mg chips for 10 days, wait 10 days...etc.
Since there are 8 increments, and 20 days at each increment; thats 160 days or about 5 months.
If you do it this way, you won't likely feel ANYTHING in the way of unpleasantness.
The faster you decrease the dose, the more likely you are to suffer from severe rebound effects (insomnia, anxiety) and this may cause you to decide to stay on the drug to avoid this nastiness.
Which is why I think it's worth it to go very slow.
It reduces unpleasantness, AND it increases your chances of successfully quitting clonazapam forever..
Posted by linkadge on December 12, 2010, at 20:20:36
In reply to My foolproof method of quitting meds w/o problems, posted by fachad on December 8, 2010, at 19:54:32
The problem with quitting something like clonazepam is that for many, there is still an underlying anxiety disorder. Unless there is some other effective treatment taking its place, withdrawl may never be seemless.
Linkadge
Posted by hansi555 on December 13, 2010, at 2:27:29
In reply to Re: My foolproof method of quitting meds w/o problems, posted by linkadge on December 12, 2010, at 20:20:36
> The problem with quitting something like clonazepam is that for many, there is still an underlying anxiety disorder. Unless there is some other effective treatment taking its place, withdrawl may never be seemless.
>
>
>
> LinkadgeWell, this thread was not about benzos but ADs
So any POW about that is still welcome
This is the end of the thread.
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