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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 36. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by AlexanderfromDenmark on December 4, 2010, at 4:58:28
This has probably been posted before, but I wondering about people's opinion.
http://www.madinamerica.com/madinamerica.com/Depression.html
Posted by linkadge on December 4, 2010, at 11:48:08
In reply to Do antidepressants induce chronicity?, posted by AlexanderfromDenmark on December 4, 2010, at 4:58:28
I do believe this to be true. Its all marketing.
I (personally) don't like to take antidepressants (or any other psychotropic) on a regular basis. I don't think it really aids in recovery.
Yes, I use meds to get through rough patches, but at the lowest possible doses, then I come off them.
When you start using regular doses of SSRIs or other ADs then you just create more problems, insulin resistance, hormonal imballances, apathy, poor sleeping patterns, etc.
Linkadge
Posted by sigismund on December 4, 2010, at 12:07:16
In reply to Do antidepressants induce chronicity?, posted by AlexanderfromDenmark on December 4, 2010, at 4:58:28
It doesn't have to be ADs.
Posted by AlexanderfromDenmark on December 4, 2010, at 12:13:16
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants induce chronicity?, posted by sigismund on December 4, 2010, at 12:07:16
> It doesn't have to be ADs.
>
>Could it be hamsters?
Posted by Phillipa on December 4, 2010, at 12:39:23
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants induce chronicity?, posted by AlexanderfromDenmark on December 4, 2010, at 12:13:16
In my own experience low doses of benzos but with miltown much stronger with first and continuous panic attacks let me recover so I just dropped in a day the miltown continued with valium and yes drank beer. And led a very productive life using the valium in doses up and down. Only when my thyroid went did a doc give me an ad and from then it's been down hill. So personally I believe what you wrote. I'm going to start a controversial topic thread now also. Phillipa
Posted by ed_uk2010 on December 4, 2010, at 12:50:55
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants induce chronicity?, posted by AlexanderfromDenmark on December 4, 2010, at 12:13:16
> > It doesn't have to be ADs.
> >
> >
>
> Could it be hamsters?Huh?
Posted by sigismund on December 4, 2010, at 13:22:19
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants induce chronicity?, posted by ed_uk2010 on December 4, 2010, at 12:50:55
It's unlikely to be hamsters but it could be benzos.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on December 4, 2010, at 13:54:43
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants induce chronicity?, posted by sigismund on December 4, 2010, at 13:22:19
> It's unlikely to be hamsters but it could be benzos.
I suspect that benzos are more likely to induce chronic anxiety than ADs are to induce chronic depression. Some anxiety disorders appear to emerge during benzo treatment eg. agoraphobia.
Not sure about hamsters. Never had a hamster.
Posted by sigismund on December 4, 2010, at 14:06:37
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants induce chronicity? » sigismund, posted by ed_uk2010 on December 4, 2010, at 13:54:43
>Some anxiety disorders appear to emerge during benzo treatment eg. agoraphobia.
Yes
Posted by ed_uk2010 on December 4, 2010, at 14:08:29
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants induce chronicity? » ed_uk2010, posted by sigismund on December 4, 2010, at 14:06:37
>Yes
Short, but sweet. You normally have more to say for yourself Sigi.
Posted by sigismund on December 4, 2010, at 14:49:32
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants induce chronicity? » sigismund, posted by ed_uk2010 on December 4, 2010, at 14:08:29
There was a study in one of the journals here about agorphobes on benzos. They were withdrawn from benzos and their agoraphobia vanished after the withdrawal. Some of the patients were at risk of jumping from the windows during the process.
Posted by linkadge on December 4, 2010, at 16:26:53
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants induce chronicity? » ed_uk2010, posted by sigismund on December 4, 2010, at 14:49:32
For me, benzos seem to be much easier to go off and on than antidepressants.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on December 4, 2010, at 16:29:04
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants induce chronicity?, posted by linkadge on December 4, 2010, at 16:26:53
> For me, benzos seem to be much easier to go off and on than antidepressants.
Do you take them everyday for months on end though? I thought you used them short term and when needed.
Posted by Hombre on December 4, 2010, at 18:49:39
In reply to Do antidepressants induce chronicity?, posted by AlexanderfromDenmark on December 4, 2010, at 4:58:28
At least on that page, there's no discussion of why this may be happening, other than the implicit assumption that all ADs cause chronicity.
It's possible that people that medicate feel well enough to get back to work, to act like nothing is wrong anymore, when it is very likely that there are still many factors that are causing stress and therefore leading to chronic depression. Of primary importance are the emotional issues that seem to be ignored by most people dealing with depression.
The mind has a very powerful effect on health. PTSD is one example, where severe trauma alters the brain and causes a chronic hyper-alert state and a vulnerability to certain situations. It also causes a flattening of mood, depression, and insomnia. In this case, the original trauma itself caused changes to the brain and chronicity. While some people can eventually recover from this, many can not.
So stress itself can cause chronicity of mental illness.
Those who don't take ADs have to do other things to get well, reaching out to others, exercising, getting good rest, etc.
ADs and basically all drugs have side-effects, which means that they affect the body as whole. Some of the effects are positive, but some may actually hurt the body.
Instead of exploring how ADs might weaken the body, making it more vulnerable to stress, we just stop at the conclusion that ADs are bad. That's way too simplistic for any of us intelligent people to accept.
Posted by linkadge on December 4, 2010, at 19:35:35
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants induce chronicity?, posted by Hombre on December 4, 2010, at 18:49:39
>It's possible that people that medicate feel >well enough to get back to work, to act like >nothing is wrong anymore, when it is very likely >that there are still many factors that are >causing stress and therefore leading to chronic >depression. Of primary importance are the >emotional issues that seem to be ignored by most >people dealing with depression
Bingo.
Its like tearing a ligament, popping some opiates and walking around like nothing is the matter. Depression can often be a signal, that something in ones life must be changed.
Linkadge
Posted by sigismund on December 4, 2010, at 22:11:48
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants induce chronicity?, posted by linkadge on December 4, 2010, at 19:35:35
>Depression can often be a signal, that something in ones life must be changed.
Yes, and you may be quite unaware of what it is or why.
Posted by linkadge on December 5, 2010, at 7:38:39
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants induce chronicity?, posted by sigismund on December 4, 2010, at 22:11:48
>Yes, and you may be quite unaware of what it is >or why.
I liken the surge in antidepressant use to the surge in obesity. There is a tendancy to blame ones genes for obesity rather than looking at lifestyle factors that may be involved.
Its easier to believe you've got a "chemical imballance" than to accept the fact that life just blows sometimes and theres not a heck of a lot you can do about it.
Believing you are chemically imballanced, psychologically puts you back in the drivers seat (for the time being). But when the little buzz from the med wears off, and you return to the realization that life still sucks, then you're back to square one. Its maladaptive for an organism to feel great when there is something wrong. History not learned from is bound to be repeated.
To me, this would be the simplest explaination for treatment resistance. If you hate your life circumstances, theres only so much a medication can do to make them more tollerable.
Linkadge
Posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on December 5, 2010, at 7:42:39
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants induce chronicity?, posted by linkadge on December 5, 2010, at 7:38:39
> >Yes, and you may be quite unaware of what it is >or why.
>
> I liken the surge in antidepressant use to the surge in obesity. There is a tendancy to blame ones genes for obesity rather than looking at lifestyle factors that may be involved.
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> Its easier to believe you've got a "chemical imballance" than to accept the fact that life just blows sometimes and theres not a heck of a lot you can do about it.
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> Believing you are chemically imballanced, psychologically puts you back in the drivers seat (for the time being). But when the little buzz from the med wears off, and you return to the realization that life still sucks, then you're back to square one. Its maladaptive for an organism to feel great when there is something wrong. History not learned from is bound to be repeated.
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> To me, this would be the simplest explaination for treatment resistance. If you hate your life circumstances, theres only so much a medication can do to make them more tollerable.
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>What do you do when your life circumstances, such as chronic illness, cannot be changed?
Posted by Hombre on December 5, 2010, at 9:18:09
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants induce chronicity?, posted by linkadge on December 5, 2010, at 7:38:39
But take it a step further, right? Stopping at life just sucks just leads to a sense of frustration, helpless, classic stagnation of thought/energy that is often at the heart of depression. It sucks the energy out of you, and eventually weakens the whole body.
That's why hope is a proven determinant of successful recovery and long-term remission - deciding that there is something that you can do, even if it is to admit that you may not be able to see certain options at the current time, but leave the door open for solutions in time...again, this is proven too be a strong factor in one's favor when battling depression.
Instead of getting caught up in the "facts", which are really our opinions, colored by experience and biochemistry, we decide to broach the subject when we are feeling better. We know how depression can create artificially negative thinking, so we have to accept that maybe sometimes we need to wait a bit, postpone huge generalizations until we can do so in a way that lets our creative energies flow again.
Sometimes letting go opens up room for the room for energy to move again, and then we can "ingest" new ideas. It's like when a nightclub is crowded, trouble will start. Instead of just letting in more people, the bouncer waits until some of the drunks leave. The new people have less competition at the bar and can order more drinks. Everyone wins.
> >Yes, and you may be quite unaware of what it is >or why.
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> I liken the surge in antidepressant use to the surge in obesity. There is a tendancy to blame ones genes for obesity rather than looking at lifestyle factors that may be involved.
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> Its easier to believe you've got a "chemical imballance" than to accept the fact that life just blows sometimes and theres not a heck of a lot you can do about it.
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> Believing you are chemically imballanced, psychologically puts you back in the drivers seat (for the time being). But when the little buzz from the med wears off, and you return to the realization that life still sucks, then you're back to square one. Its maladaptive for an organism to feel great when there is something wrong. History not learned from is bound to be repeated.
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> To me, this would be the simplest explaination for treatment resistance. If you hate your life circumstances, theres only so much a medication can do to make them more tollerable.
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Posted by linkadge on December 5, 2010, at 11:34:26
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants induce chronicity?, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on December 5, 2010, at 7:42:39
>What do you do when your life circumstances, >such as chronic illness, cannot be changed?
Depends on the chronic illness, I guess. There are studies in which antidepressants are essentially useless in terminally ill cancer patinents.
Sometimes certain antidepressants can be useful for chronic pain, which indirectly improves quality of life in certain illnesses.
Posted by linkadge on December 5, 2010, at 11:51:56
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants induce chronicity?, posted by Hombre on December 5, 2010, at 9:18:09
>But take it a step further, right? Stopping at >life just sucks just leads to a sense of >frustration, helpless, classic stagnation of >thought/energy that is often at the heart of >depression. It sucks the energy out of you, and >eventually weakens the whole body.
No, I don't think that people should give up at "life sucks". I totally believe in hope. Thats what most of the people on this board are looking for. However, in certain cercumstances, by looking for the latest antidepressant cocktail are we just avoiding opportinuties for true recovery? I guess what I am saying, is that I believe we need to find hope in something that is *really* going to make a life changing difference.
>deciding that there is something that you can do,
Yeah, but at some point, don't people just get tired of the "new pill of the week" strategy for renewed hope? Is that really "doing something about it?
>We know how depression can create artificially >negative thinking, so we have to accept that >maybe sometimes we need to wait a bit, postpone >huge generalizations until we can do so in a way >that lets our creative energies flow again.
But, for many of us, we need more than just "a positive happy outlook". I don't beleive in the school of thought that says "have a happy outlook, and everything will start going you way". We need reason to know that life is worth living. Popping a pill might win a battle but, does it win the war?
Linkadge
Posted by sigismund on December 5, 2010, at 13:09:37
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants induce chronicity?, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on December 5, 2010, at 7:42:39
>What do you do when your life circumstances, such as chronic illness, cannot be changed?
You try to find a place inside you that is beyond the suffering.
So you are still sick. But part of you is untouched by it.
That's what I think, anyway.
Posted by sigismund on December 5, 2010, at 13:11:03
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants induce chronicity?, posted by Hombre on December 5, 2010, at 9:18:09
That was nice.
Posted by sigismund on December 5, 2010, at 13:21:22
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants induce chronicity? » Alexanderfromdenmark, posted by sigismund on December 5, 2010, at 13:09:37
I was reading this article by a phenomenologist (which I'm only dimly acquainted with) and she was talking about her experience with chronic illness in terms like these.
She didn't imply she could escape the suffering.
She did talk about having found a place in herself where she felt OK, in spite of the fact that she was quite ill.
Mental illness is such that usually this is impossible, or nearly so.
Posted by europerep on December 5, 2010, at 16:12:33
In reply to Do antidepressants induce chronicity?, posted by AlexanderfromDenmark on December 4, 2010, at 4:58:28
First of all, I don't think one can have it both ways. Either antidepressants are effective in treating depression, thereby possibly prolonging the illness - or they aren't effective, but how would they then prolong the illness? I mean, it would be a possible, but complicated argument to make that antidepressants are actually ineffective in treating depression, *but* their action induces chronicity. It doesn't really make sense to me...
Then, this statement (from the article, without any backup) seems possibly questionable to me:
"Prior to the widespread use of antidepressants, depressed patients regularly got well, and many never suffered a second bout of major depression."
Also, if more people are depressed for longer periods of time now, one would think that suicide rates should go up, no? Maybe that's compensated by better preventive measures and such, but... I don't know.. I'm not really convinced.
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