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Posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on November 26, 2010, at 7:49:44
In reply to Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by Laney on November 25, 2010, at 12:12:24
Yes, they defintely can. They have made everything much much worse in my case.
I think most people tolerate the drugs better though.
Posted by hyperfocus on November 26, 2010, at 12:17:43
In reply to Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by Laney on November 25, 2010, at 12:12:24
Yeah they definitely can. Paxil in particular I've read several stories here about it pooping out and horrible withdrawal and significant post-SSRI symptoms. Apart from changes to brain chemistry, they can negatively affect your mood and emotions. I found benzos effective for anxiety but they made me so flat and anhedonic. Then I had to look for other meds to address that.
And coming off the benzos took a long time.There has to be a lot more studies done on the negative effects of these meds. Also the mode of prescribing and taking these drugs and long-term administration needs more study. Why do many people respond initially to a drug, then stop taking it thinking they are better, relapse, go back to it and then find it doesn't work anymore? Why do drugs poop out? Why do drugs like Paxil and Effexor have such horrible withdrawal symptoms that seem to persist for a long time after the drug is discontinued. Why do some drugs only start working after you discontinue another drug, like in my case.
Hopefully Dr. Bob will see these issues coming up on PB again and again and encourage researchers to study these issues.
Posted by sigismund on November 26, 2010, at 15:46:16
In reply to Re: Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by hyperfocus on November 26, 2010, at 12:17:43
It is interesting that the use of benzos can lead to agoraphobia. There was a study of agoraphobics on benzos who were treated by withdrawal. They got better, once they got over the withdrawal.
Posted by morgan miller on November 26, 2010, at 16:22:41
In reply to Re: Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by huxley on November 25, 2010, at 16:21:31
>I am constantly amazed that others can't see this. Its almost like an addiction.
This is partially due to the fact that others are not worse off after medication use. You does not equal everyone.
Also, be aware of making judgements solely based on what you read on the internet. Remember, there are thousands of people doing very well currently on a medication or long after stopping a medication, that you don't hear about because they are just going on with their lives and feel not need to get on the internet and say, "Hey everyone out there! I'm doing great and life is wonderful!". You will find some of those people on sites that are made for medication reviews.
>And they don't work. They might for a while but in the end you end up worse than you were in the beginning.
.
Again, that is YOU, not everyone.I'm sorry you have gone through hell with medications. You just have to realize though, that there are many out there doing just fine on medication, and doing just fine for a very very long time. Maybe it's easier for you to think that everyone will be worse off just like you are.
Morgan
Posted by Phillipa on November 26, 2010, at 18:13:26
In reply to Re: Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by morgan miller on November 26, 2010, at 16:22:41
Didn't have a problem coming off the paxil but this luvox a different story. I feel it's the total length of time you are on a certain med that creates bad withdrawal as can't get off a mere 50mg of luvox as been on it ll years. Phillipa
Posted by violette on November 27, 2010, at 15:18:08
In reply to Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by Laney on November 25, 2010, at 12:12:24
I was much better off - in all areas of my life - prior to taking psychiatric drugs. Like some here, I haven't been the same since. I have asked myself similar questions - have psychotropic drugs worsened my condition, somehow caused permanent, adverse changes to my brain? Somehow, it might be easier for me to think - yes, the drugs caused it. That would imply there might be a medical solution and maybe give me something or someone to blame or direct my anger at. Alternatively, it would allow me to redirect my thoughts from painful and unpleasant emotions to repetitive thoughts about 'what happened to my brain'...or 'what med will fix this'...
While I agree there should be valid and well funded studies to assess the long term consequences of these drugs, unfortunately, I don't know of any that exist.
So while I don't have any clues as to whether or not psychiatric drugs have indeed led to more problems for some, there is evidence that may provide explanations to perhaps some of these situations. I think there is a flaw in mental health practice, where if someone does not meet the criteria of Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD), for one, they end up in biological psychiatric limbo-med trial after med trial, and-or psychotherapies that are not effective, or less effective than what is needed for someone with Borderline pathology. I also think men get the short end of the stick, as they are less likely to be seen as 'Borderline'.
Symptoms such as lack of motivation, ahedonia, are signs of Borderline pathology and other more permanent mental conditions. I also think someone who regularly has these symptoms, along with anxiety, OCD, and other problems such as ADD or substance abuse problems, is more likely to be in the Borderline spectrum - which is not an 'official' DSM diagnosis.
If some could possibly ignore or unlearn the stereotypes associated with BPD through the media and mainstream/popular websites, and think of Borderline pathology in terms of a continuum with some biological origins rather than character or personality 'flaws', it could possibly bring some closer to finding solutions to help end suffering. For instance-benzodiazepenes calm anxiety in someone who has BPD or who is in the Borderline spectrum the same as someone with an Axis I anxiety diagnosis.
I noticed patients sometimes get diagnosed with 'Complex PTSD' - which is the closest I've seen to a description of a Borderline structure - but there isn't much of a research history for C-PTSD; it just doesn't compare with the research out there in attachment, object relations and self psychology. And if you focus on relief of more narrow diagnoses - depression, anxiety; or symptoms - lack of motivation, focus/concentration, etc - you might be overlooking the whole forest, seeing only the trees.
Then there's the diagnosis of 'BPII'...or the misdiagnosis if Bipolar I (that is evidenced by by research)...where emotional problems sometimes get erased from the picture simply because someone is able to get through life-even if they have not life quality whatsoever...merely existing...going through the motions.
Many problems overlap, then sometimes are veiwed as part of depression, but can really be a part of more complex pathology. Depersonalization is a symptom that can occur with those who have a Borderline stucture. Symptoms in the depersonalization spectrum are very difficult to treat with medications, and there is not much researched in this area. It's another way to look at some of symptoms people often think of as inclusive of depression when they could be more relevent to something bigger going on:
"In a large study of people with depersonalization disorder, many of them reported feeling as if their surroundings were not real. In addition, they also felt like they were looking at the world through a fog, as if their bodies didnt belong to them, and as though once-familiar places were suddenly foreign. Some of them even reported that on occasion they felt as if they were outside of their bodies looking at themselves or that they didnt recognize themselves when looking in a mirror.
In addition, people with this problem often feel emotionally and physically numb, isolated, without motivation, unable to concentrate, unable to remember things, weightless, and dizzy. They might also experience a distortion of their senses, like the loss of sound, color, or taste. Or they may feel as though the world is two-dimensional or not solid.
Are There Other Problems Related to Depersonalization Disorder?
People with depersonalization disorder often suffer with other problems, such as depression, panic disorder, phobias, generalized anxiety disorder, and drug or alcohol abuse."
http://www.newharbinger.com/PsychSolve/DissociativeDisorders/tabid/128/Default.aspx
Just because one does not experience the world as 'two dimensional' or feel outside of your body as described in that article, does not mean one does not have mild depersonalization - the numbness and lack of interest in life... While I think looking at symptoms as a continuum, rather than a 'meets or does not meet' the criteria can be helpful, psychiatrists seem to focus on diagnoses - the trees - which is how they are taught and how the system has evolved as a result of research, politics, money, and culture. But by doing so, by viewing and treating our illness as trees, they are sometimes unable to see the forest and people are suffering because of it.
Kernberg is one who describes a Borderline emotional structure, cognition, and object relations in depth; it might be worth it for some to look into his work if you are someone who has not found adequate relief through medications. This, of course, is a psychodynamic view, so there are no doubts some psychiatrists would not recognize this, agree, or even acknowledge it. It's a bit different here near NYC, where there are many psychiatrists who have a psychodynamic way of thinking and treating patients..I do not know how it is outside of the U.S.
It's only my opinion-nothing more, nothing less, that some people with more permanent mental illness might be in the Borderline spectrum or within the spectrum of another more permanent personality structure similar to Borderline. Unfortunately, although there is not much, if any, research about long term consequences of psychiatric drugs...there is plenty of research that looks at similar symptoms from a different angle-a psychodynamic perspective.
I've found the most useful stuff in books as it seems there is little public access to psychodynamic papers. It's really been helpful to me; and even though I'm not yet where i want to be and still relapse from time to time, I'm slowly and steadily improving. I've also begun to realize I'm much closer to a healthy state of mind than I was prior to having any symptoms of depression, PTSD, and anxiety, before I was actually diagnosed with any mental health problems. If anyone is interested, there is an extensive history of psychodynamic theory and case studies; it's very deep in comparison to other views of symptoms, the psyche of those with mental illnesses...and a bit more difficult to digest until you become more familiar with the concepts.
Posted by Phillipa on November 27, 2010, at 19:48:19
In reply to Re: Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by violette on November 27, 2010, at 15:18:08
So you feel that a great deal of folks are Borderline? And do not require meds? And that they don't change a person's brain? Instead it'a personality disorder? I'm really confused with this post. Forgive me if not as knowledgeable. Phillipa
Posted by merpmerp on November 27, 2010, at 21:54:12
In reply to Re: Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by morgan miller on November 26, 2010, at 16:22:41
This is so true. When I was on Prozac the first time, 5 years ago, I felt perfect. I had never heard of this site and would never have thought to look because I was out living my life and getting stuff done, not scouring the Internet for info.
> Also, be aware of making judgements solely based on what you read on the internet. Remember, there are thousands of people doing very well currently on a medication or long after stopping a medication, that you don't hear about because they are just going on with their lives and feel not need to get on the internet and say, "Hey everyone out there! I'm doing great and life is wonderful!". You will find some of those people on sites that are made for medication reviews.
Posted by Phillipa on November 27, 2010, at 22:02:34
In reply to Re: Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems » morgan miller, posted by merpmerp on November 27, 2010, at 21:54:12
Same here with the paxil at l0mg and benzos then quit and back to extremly low benzo doses that the doc said were placebo as so low. Phillipa
Posted by ed_uk2010 on November 28, 2010, at 7:30:40
In reply to Re: Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by violette on November 27, 2010, at 15:18:08
>I was much better off - in all areas of my life - prior to taking psychiatric drugs. Like some here, I haven't been the same since.
Personally, I was better off in some ways, but worse off in other ways. It's been a mixed bag.
Posted by merpmerp on November 28, 2010, at 10:45:55
In reply to Re: Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems » merpmerp, posted by Phillipa on November 27, 2010, at 22:02:34
Wish I had never quit my Prozac. Specifically I wish I had never quit the specific generic brand I was on. But, I would have had to come off it anyway as I moved and I don't think it's available here. Well I learned my lesson and when I find something that works that well again, nothing will take it from me! :)
Posted by morgan miller on November 28, 2010, at 12:57:17
In reply to Re: Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by merpmerp on November 28, 2010, at 10:45:55
> Wish I had never quit my Prozac. Specifically I wish I had never quit the specific generic brand I was on. But, I would have had to come off it anyway as I moved and I don't think it's available here. Well I learned my lesson and when I find something that works that well again, nothing will take it from me! :)
I right there with ya. I wish I had never quit Zoloft when I did. Quitting your med is like taking the bandaging off deep wide oozing wound.
I do think psych meds may cause permanent changes in some cases. What I don't think people realize is when they quit the medication that was working because they just want to be off medication, they leave themselves vulnerable to severe depression and anxiety-two things that also may cause permanent changes. Another thing I do not think people are taking into account is the fact that our brains are changing as we age, minus any medication or mental illness.
Posted by Jeroen on November 28, 2010, at 13:27:53
In reply to Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by Laney on November 25, 2010, at 12:12:24
hi, yes i took lamictal when i was feeling ok, but not myself
and after a week i got permanent brain damage
lamictal induced psychotic (permanent) TD
Posted by merpmerp on November 28, 2010, at 14:19:17
In reply to Re: Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by morgan miller on November 28, 2010, at 12:57:17
To quote Crazymeds: "You feel better BECAUSE THE MEDS ARE WORKING! It is not (necessarily) because you have been cured."
You are correct that depression and anxiety can cause permanent damage. I will stick with meds as long as they stick with me.
Posted by morgan miller on November 28, 2010, at 16:26:45
In reply to lamictal induced psychotic (permanent) TD, posted by Jeroen on November 28, 2010, at 13:27:53
> hi, yes i took lamictal when i was feeling ok, but not myself
>
> and after a week i got permanent brain damage
>
> lamictal induced psychotic (permanent) TDDo you think it's possible lamictal triggered something in you that may have also been triggered by something else?
Do you believe Lamictal and Lamictal only is the cause of your current issues?
Posted by Jeroen on November 28, 2010, at 16:36:38
In reply to Re: lamictal induced psychotic (permanent) TD, posted by morgan miller on November 28, 2010, at 16:26:45
i'm sure its was the lamictal :(
Posted by morgan miller on November 28, 2010, at 16:54:33
In reply to Re: lamictal induced psychotic (permanent) TD, posted by Jeroen on November 28, 2010, at 16:36:38
I'm not saying lamictal didn't trigger whatever it is you are struggling with now. What I am suggesting is that what you are struggling withi may have been something inside you already could have been triggered by something else, not just lamictal.
Posted by Jeroen on November 28, 2010, at 17:10:32
In reply to Re: lamictal induced psychotic (permanent) TD » Jeroen, posted by morgan miller on November 28, 2010, at 16:54:33
yes possible, but lamictal made my psychosis from normal to acute and permanent so i need to take meds until i die
Posted by morgan miller on November 28, 2010, at 17:19:08
In reply to Re: lamictal induced psychotic (permanent) TD, posted by Jeroen on November 28, 2010, at 17:10:32
Well most of us need the meds for the rest of our lives, it's just a matter of finding the right ones.
Sorry you had such a bad experience with Lamictal. My experience was not a good one. I wonder if Lamictal left me worse off, but it's really hard to tell in my case.
Posted by huxley on November 28, 2010, at 23:19:13
In reply to Re: lamictal induced psychotic (permanent) TD, posted by morgan miller on November 28, 2010, at 17:19:08
Its written on the warning sheet that SSRIs can cause,
Agitation
Irritation
Depression
Anxiety
Suicidal thoughtsand much much more.
People who have never had a problem with any of this have taken SSRIs and developed these problems for the first time.I think there is a pretty good body of evidence out there to suggest that they are indeed causing alot of these problems in people.
And then doctors are medicating people for these side effects.
Posted by morgan miller on November 28, 2010, at 23:32:12
In reply to Re: lamictal induced psychotic (permanent) TD, posted by huxley on November 28, 2010, at 23:19:13
> Its written on the warning sheet that SSRIs can cause,
>
> Agitation
> Irritation
> Depression
> Anxiety
> Suicidal thoughts
>
> and much much more.
> People who have never had a problem with any of this have taken SSRIs and developed these problems for the first time.
>
> I think there is a pretty good body of evidence out there to suggest that they are indeed causing alot of these problems in people.
>
> And then doctors are medicating people for these side effects.
>
>Sure this can happen with some people. You were talking like antidepressants damaged everyone that took them.
Posted by huxley on November 28, 2010, at 23:44:18
In reply to Re: Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by morgan miller on November 26, 2010, at 16:22:41
> >I am constantly amazed that others can't see this. Its almost like an addiction.
>
> This is partially due to the fact that others are not worse off after medication use. You does not equal everyone.
>
> Also, be aware of making judgements solely based on what you read on the internet. Remember, there are thousands of people doing very well currently on a medication or long after stopping a medication, that you don't hear about because they are just going on with their lives and feel not need to get on the internet and say, "Hey everyone out there! I'm doing great and life is wonderful!". You will find some of those people on sites that are made for medication reviews.
>
> >And they don't work. They might for a while but in the end you end up worse than you were in the beginning.
> .
> Again, that is YOU, not everyone.
>
> I'm sorry you have gone through hell with medications. You just have to realize though, that there are many out there doing just fine on medication, and doing just fine for a very very long time. Maybe it's easier for you to think that everyone will be worse off just like you are.
>
> Morgan
>
>
>Hi Morgan,
In your post you have inferred that
-'I want people to be worse of just like I am'
-'I think I am everyone'
-'I believe everything I read on the internet'All borderline petty insults.. I really couldn't be bothered with this type of personal rubbish.
If you want to discuss the issue thats cool but if you want to get upset and resort to this then I have no time for you.
Posted by huxley on November 28, 2010, at 23:57:07
In reply to Re: lamictal induced psychotic (permanent) TD, posted by morgan miller on November 28, 2010, at 23:32:12
> > Its written on the warning sheet that SSRIs can cause,
> >
> > Agitation
> > Irritation
> > Depression
> > Anxiety
> > Suicidal thoughts
> >
> > and much much more.
> > People who have never had a problem with any of this have taken SSRIs and developed these problems for the first time.
> >
> > I think there is a pretty good body of evidence out there to suggest that they are indeed causing alot of these problems in people.
> >
> > And then doctors are medicating people for these side effects.
> >
> >
>
> Sure this can happen with some people. You were talking like antidepressants damaged everyone that took them.Was it the part where I said
' I have no doubt in my mind that my problems '
or was it
'Alot of people (not all) suffer massive problems withdrawing'
Or maybe this part?
'meds have gotten me'
'meds have caused my '
Sure a few of the things I stated in there were in a general sense. I didn't know I had to put everything I said into the context of being my personal view. Thought people would be able to figure that part out themselves ;)
You sure don't a couple of posts back you were saying that nearly everyone in here will need to be on psych meds for the rest of their lives.....
practice what you preach.
Posted by morgan miller on November 29, 2010, at 0:30:00
In reply to Re: Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by huxley on November 25, 2010, at 16:21:31
>The problem is, once you are on you are on. ITs often a very hard road to wind back.
>And they don't work. They might for a while but in the end you end up worse than you were in the beginning.
These two statements specifically inferred that the same applies to everyone that is or has been on psychiatric medications.
Look, I understand your reaction to my post. I understand you are angry about the imperfect world of psychiatry. I also understand I may have communicated in an attacking way and could have made my point more productively. I just want to make sure that people understand that there is another world of people out there that currently take or have taken psychiatric medications without experiencing any of the issues you and others discuss here and elsewhere on the internet.
Morgan
Posted by FluffMama on November 29, 2010, at 1:05:50
In reply to Re: lamictal induced psychotic (permanent) TD, posted by Jeroen on November 28, 2010, at 17:10:32
> yes possible, but lamictal made my psychosis from normal to acute and permanent so i need to take meds until i die
Jeroem, I think you can rest easy about Lamictal causing a psychotic state to last permanently. There is no recorded instance of this taking place, and instead, Lamictal is given to patients to help them with psychotic episodes and keep the episodes from recurring. A psychotic episode is never considered normal, and it is taken very seriously. So once you have an episode, Lamictal is prescribed to prevent another one. In other words, if you have one psychotic episode, you demonstrate to the Doctor that you are vulnerable to this type of disorder, and since nobody wants to see psychotic episodes repeated, you do end up on a medication for "life" so to speak. I am also on Lamictal for Bipolar disorder and it is a great mood stabilizer, but I don't like having to take it either for the rest of my life. But I guess diabetics and other people with different health problems have to take meds for the rest of their lives too, so I try to not think about it.
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