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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by JMS600 on November 7, 2010, at 18:46:55
Has anyone any experience with taking prescibed tryptophan for treatment resistant anxiety and depression? If so, how successful was it?
I know simply trying to raise serotonin levels is not always the answer. But when most drugs have been tried unsuccessfully, isn't it time to consider alternatives such as tryptophan as an 'add on'??
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 11, 2010, at 20:24:46
In reply to Optimax / tryptophan anyone?, posted by JMS600 on November 7, 2010, at 18:46:55
> Has anyone any experience with taking prescibed tryptophan for treatment resistant anxiety and depression? If so, how successful was it?
Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like to redirect this thread to Psycho-Babble Alternative. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20100930/msgs/969855.html
That'll be considered a new thread, so if you'd like to be notified by email of follow-ups to it, you'll need to request that there.
Please do feel free to continue this discussion there, and in general to explore the other boards here. Thanks,
Bob
Posted by JMS600 on November 13, 2010, at 21:08:31
In reply to Redirect: Optimax / tryptophan, posted by Dr. Bob on November 11, 2010, at 20:24:46
> > Has anyone any experience with taking prescibed tryptophan for treatment resistant anxiety and depression? If so, how successful was it?
>
> Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like to redirect this thread to Psycho-Babble Alternative. Here's a link:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20100930/msgs/969855.html
>
> That'll be considered a new thread, so if you'd like to be notified by email of follow-ups to it, you'll need to request that there.
>
> Please do feel free to continue this discussion there, and in general to explore the other boards here. Thanks,
>
> Bob
Hi Dr BobSorry to disagree but Optimax (tryptophan)is a proscribed medication and not an alternative therapy - the post should be on the medications board and not the alternative!!
Posted by ed_uk2010 on November 14, 2010, at 11:11:40
In reply to Optimax / tryptophan anyone?, posted by JMS600 on November 13, 2010, at 21:08:31
Hi Dr. Bob,
Optimax 500mg tablets are a prescription only medicine in the UK. Optimax is made by Merck Serono and is approved as an 'add on' treatment for severe depression resistant to standard antidepressants. So, I wouldn't say that it's an alternative therapy.
Posted by Maxime on November 24, 2010, at 0:39:40
In reply to Optimax / tryptophan anyone?, posted by JMS600 on November 7, 2010, at 18:46:55
> Has anyone any experience with taking prescibed tryptophan for treatment resistant anxiety and depression? If so, how successful was it?
>
> I know simply trying to raise serotonin levels is not always the answer. But when most drugs have been tried unsuccessfully, isn't it time to consider alternatives such as tryptophan as an 'add on'??
>
>I was prescribed 1 gram of tryptophan for a while. In my case, it had no benefit so I stopped taking it. I was taking other psych meds at the same time but I don't remember which ones.
Posted by bleauberry on November 24, 2010, at 0:39:42
In reply to Optimax / tryptophan anyone?, posted by JMS600 on November 7, 2010, at 18:46:55
> Has anyone any experience with taking prescibed tryptophan for treatment resistant anxiety and depression? If so, how successful was it?
>
> I know simply trying to raise serotonin levels is not always the answer. But when most drugs have been tried unsuccessfully, isn't it time to consider alternatives such as tryptophan as an 'add on'??
>
>Tryptophan is a fair option and easy enough to try. I don't put much faith in pure serotonin strategies though.
With tryptophan there are a lot of assumptions...your body is converting B vitamins correctly...your body will convert tryptophan correctly...norepinephrine and dopamine are fine....these are pretty big assumptions in my opinion. More than likely, in my guess, all of these things are not working right.
But it is worth a try.
When psych meds just don't work, common logic says. "it is somethinig else". That's when it makes sense to turn the focus to food choices, detoxification, chronic infections, and inflammation. None of these are easily or reliably tested or diagnosed. You kind of have to just assume they are problems. One thing in common with all of them.....depression is a symptom and it doesn't respond well to psych drugs because the psych drugs are doing nothing to hit that problem.
The body is kind of like a garbage can. It needs to be cleaned out and it needs as little garbage as possible going into it. This is especially important when there is chronic disease present.
What I am saying is, in your alternative searches, do not look exclusively for or even primarily at brain altering substances. Look at substances that do other disease fighting stuff. When the disease is altered, so is the depression.
Posted by JMS600 on November 24, 2010, at 0:39:42
In reply to , posted by on December 31, 1969, at 18:00:00
> > Has anyone any experience with taking prescibed tryptophan for treatment resistant anxiety and depression? If so, how successful was it?
> >
> > I know simply trying to raise serotonin levels is not always the answer. But when most drugs have been tried unsuccessfully, isn't it time to consider alternatives such as tryptophan as an 'add on'??
> >
> >
>
> Tryptophan is a fair option and easy enough to try. I don't put much faith in pure serotonin strategies though.
>
> With tryptophan there are a lot of assumptions...your body is converting B vitamins correctly...your body will convert tryptophan correctly...norepinephrine and dopamine are fine....these are pretty big assumptions in my opinion. More than likely, in my guess, all of these things are not working right.
>
> But it is worth a try.
>
> When psych meds just don't work, common logic says. "it is somethinig else". That's when it makes sense to turn the focus to food choices, detoxification, chronic infections, and inflammation. None of these are easily or reliably tested or diagnosed. You kind of have to just assume they are problems. One thing in common with all of them.....depression is a symptom and it doesn't respond well to psych drugs because the psych drugs are doing nothing to hit that problem.
>
> The body is kind of like a garbage can. It needs to be cleaned out and it needs as little garbage as possible going into it. This is especially important when there is chronic disease present.
>
> What I am saying is, in your alternative searches, do not look exclusively for or even primarily at brain altering substances. Look at substances that do other disease fighting stuff. When the disease is altered, so is the depression.
>
>
What're other substancies or strategies could be tried bleauberry?Thanks
jms
Posted by bleauberry on November 24, 2010, at 0:39:43
In reply to , posted by on December 31, 1969, at 18:00:00
You ask a tough question. Everyone has a different journey and everyone's treatment will be customized for them.
That said, we want to combat inflammation, bacterial infection, fungal infection, immune dysregulation, malabsorption, food intolerances/allergies, toxicity, and genetic flaws or disease flaws in converting vitamins, fats, and proteins to the correct metabolic forms that we need. All of these have profound direct effect on the neurotransmitters and receptors and glands.
We tend to think of "increasing neurotransmitter levels or availability." That is such a primitive way to look at it. There is so much more involved than just the levels....integrity, purety, functionality, competitiveness.
Some lifestyle changes in food choices combined with a handful of synergistic specialty supplements have effect on all the above. Results can then be custom tailored by trial and error, which we are all well versed at unfortunately.
For me the turning point was when someone pointed out to me that EVERYTHING is experimental...that includes all of our psychiatric prescriptions, all herbs, and supplements. That said, many herbs have literally hundreds of clinical studies on them we know more of what they do and how they do it than we do of our manmade chemicals. Not to mention 1000s of years of experience and use.
Everything is experimental. There is no hard science. There is more we don't know than what we do know. Once those realities are accepted, many new doors open up.
Where we often go wrong, I think, is that when we speak of depression we speak of serotonin, dopamine, etc. Substances that can improve or cure depression, many of them are not known as "antidepressants". It's just that as they do their thing at reversing something unseen contributing to the depression, depression goes away.
All that said, I still think the best thing for any new depression patient to do is follow the doctor's orders. Prescriptions can save lives or buy some time. Sometimes they even work. Sometimes they work like magic. It is for the veteran depression patient that I think time has arrived to expand the knowledge base beyond the psychiatrist's office.
Posted by jms600 on November 24, 2010, at 0:39:51
In reply to , posted by on December 31, 1969, at 18:00:00
> You ask a tough question. Everyone has a different journey and everyone's treatment will be customized for them.
>
> That said, we want to combat inflammation, bacterial infection, fungal infection, immune dysregulation, malabsorption, food intolerances/allergies, toxicity, and genetic flaws or disease flaws in converting vitamins, fats, and proteins to the correct metabolic forms that we need. All of these have profound direct effect on the neurotransmitters and receptors and glands.
>
> We tend to think of "increasing neurotransmitter levels or availability." That is such a primitive way to look at it. There is so much more involved than just the levels....integrity, purety, functionality, competitiveness.
>
> Some lifestyle changes in food choices combined with a handful of synergistic specialty supplements have effect on all the above. Results can then be custom tailored by trial and error, which we are all well versed at unfortunately.
>
> For me the turning point was when someone pointed out to me that EVERYTHING is experimental...that includes all of our psychiatric prescriptions, all herbs, and supplements. That said, many herbs have literally hundreds of clinical studies on them we know more of what they do and how they do it than we do of our manmade chemicals. Not to mention 1000s of years of experience and use.
>
> Everything is experimental. There is no hard science. There is more we don't know than what we do know. Once those realities are accepted, many new doors open up.
>
> Where we often go wrong, I think, is that when we speak of depression we speak of serotonin, dopamine, etc. Substances that can improve or cure depression, many of them are not known as "antidepressants". It's just that as they do their thing at reversing something unseen contributing to the depression, depression goes away.
>
> All that said, I still think the best thing for any new depression patient to do is follow the doctor's orders. Prescriptions can save lives or buy some time. Sometimes they even work. Sometimes they work like magic. It is for the veteran depression patient that I think time has arrived to expand the knowledge base beyond the psychiatrist's office.
Thanks bleauberry - some very interesting points there. Certainly food for thought.I know it's a tough one, but from the treatments and therapies you have mentioned, where would be your starting point? Which would you try first?
I have fairly severe panic disorder, GAD, social phobia, along with melancholic depression (although my energy levels and motivation never seems to be affected).
Been through all the SSRIs, SNRIs some Tricyclics, lithium, buspirone, benzos, most atypical antipsychotics, some antiepileptics. Most (although not all) have been largely ineffective.
Thanks!
Posted by bleauberry on November 24, 2010, at 0:39:52
In reply to , posted by on December 31, 1969, at 18:00:00
>
> I know it's a tough one, but from the treatments and therapies you have mentioned, where would be your starting point? Which would you try first?I've had many starting points. I think that was a mistake. They all need to be all done simultaneously right from the start.
>
> I have fairly severe panic disorder, GAD, social phobia, along with melancholic depression (although my energy levels and motivation never seems to be affected).
>
> Been through all the SSRIs, SNRIs some Tricyclics, lithium, buspirone, benzos, most atypical antipsychotics, some antiepileptics. Most (although not all) have been largely ineffective.
>
> Thanks!I can sure relate. It would be nice to see you feeling better.
I still find it amazing that the only times I felt true authentic remission was on the combination of half Doxycycline and ultra low dose hydrocortisone. And there is DMSA, which reliably gives me some good days. None of these are antidepressants.
Posted by Phillipa on November 24, 2010, at 0:39:53
In reply to Re: Optimax / tryptophan anyone?, posted by bleauberry on November 11, 2010, at 20:23:32
I'm going to try to pick so to speak the brain of the compounding pharmacist today hoping he's there and not tied up doing nutritional consultations on what he feels might add to my bioidenticals and also my current supplements. Phillipa
Posted by Hyena on November 24, 2010, at 0:39:54
In reply to Optimax / tryptophan anyone?, posted by JMS600 on November 11, 2010, at 20:23:30
> Has anyone any experience with taking prescibed tryptophan for treatment resistant anxiety and depression? If so, how successful was it?
>
> I know simply trying to raise serotonin levels is not always the answer. But when most drugs have been tried unsuccessfully, isn't it time to consider alternatives such as tryptophan as an 'add on'??
>
>I have a good bit of experience with tryptophan. I was on lexapro a couple of years ago and stopped taking it cold turkey. I started getting brain shocks pretty bad from the withdrawal. I thought my brain must be suffering from the sudden drop in serotonin levels so I bought some tryptophan. I took a couple of pills for a dose of about 500mg but it did nothing for me. Because I was desperate and my mood was getting worse I decided to try a much higher dose of about 2 or 3 grams. The effect was amazing. It completely stopped the brain shocks and my mood was really elevated. It was a really nice feeling.
I took these large doses for several months after this and it worked great. The only problem was the cost and the amount of pills I had to swallow.
Then one day by accident I discovered that if I combined tryptophan and probiotics the effect was even greater. Using this combo I was able to take much less tryp but I had to take very high dose probiotics (caps of about 20 billion X 5). After searching the net to find out what was going on I found some sites suggesting that probiotics increase Tryptophan in the brain.
Anyway I kept taking this combo for another few months and it gave me great stability. I dont do it anymore because the cost was still high and I have substituted other supplements that are working well for less money.
By the way 5-htp also works better for me when taken with probiotics.
I think most people who try Tryptophan dont take enough and give up thinking it's useless. It may simply be that some of us have a need for greater amounts of it than others.
Posted by Hombre on November 24, 2010, at 0:39:54
In reply to Re: Optimax / tryptophan anyone?, posted by Hyena on November 12, 2010, at 14:07:06
I tried 100mg of 5-htp the other day on top of my antidepressants (effexor remeron), and I felt really good, almost too good. The next day I had diarrhea, since serotonin increases motility in the colon. I had to quit taking prozac after a few weeks because the runs were getting out of control - sorry for the gross details, but I think it shows that 5-htp really does help boost serotonin, and it should be added to antidepressants cautiously if at all.
Posted by Lao Tzu on November 24, 2010, at 0:39:55
In reply to Re: Optimax / tryptophan anyone?, posted by bleauberry on November 11, 2010, at 20:23:31
I agree with bleauberry. Psych drugs may miss the target, while other supplements that are, in fact, not antidepressants actually do help with depression. The most basic are the nutrients that your body needs to run properly and to make neurotransmitters or to facilitate proper metabolism. Basic nutrients that will help depression include the B vitamins, specifically, B1, B2, B3, B6, B12, and folic acid. Minerals needed include zinc, magnesium, calcium, selenium, and manganese. Vitamins E and C are very helpful. Polyunsaturated fatty acids like fish oil and Evening Primrose Oil will help as well. These will all help metabolic processes run more smoothly, but the big question is, what specifically, is the problem? Is it more psychological than biochemical? Is it both? Do you exercise? That's a big one! Do you have stable, satisfying relationships in your life? Do you feel passionate about anybody or any type of activity?
Tryptophan alone probably won't address the problem. You will have to add a high-potency multivitamin with all the essential nutrients as well as tyrosine or perhaps, DL-phenylalanine for some people. Try reading Patricia Slagel's The Way Up from Down. It is a good book with a detailed plan of what supplements to use, including tryptophan and tyrosine as the main amino acids to use. She stresses the use of high-potency multivitamins and B-complex vitamins as part of the regimen in addition to the amino acids.
My input is that tryptophan alone may not be enough. You need to look at depression as a multi-faceted phenomenon, with many psychological causes as well as organic causes (disease states). Have blood tests done to check thyroid, liver, kidney, blood count, etc. Do you have any gastrointestinal problems? I do think there is a link between mind and gut because my IBS resolved when I was placed on antidepressants. And I have heard a story of someone's social anxiety being resolved on a probiotic regimen, but I can't validate it. It is possible that probiotics can resolve some psychological symptoms, but again, more research is needed.
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 24, 2010, at 0:43:43
In reply to Status of Optimax, posted by ed_uk2010 on November 14, 2010, at 11:11:40
> Sorry to disagree but Optimax (tryptophan)is a proscribed medication and not an alternative therapy
>
> JMS600> Optimax 500mg tablets are a prescription only medicine in the UK. Optimax is made by Merck Serono and is approved as an 'add on' treatment for severe depression resistant to standard antidepressants.
>
> ed_uk2010I didn't know that, thanks for educating me. I've unredirected this thread.
Bob
Posted by ed_uk2010 on November 25, 2010, at 15:35:50
In reply to Re: Status of Optimax, posted by Dr. Bob on November 24, 2010, at 0:43:43
>I didn't know that, thanks for educating me. I've unredirected this thread.
>
> BobThanks!
This is the end of the thread.
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