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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Buckeye Fan on October 23, 2010, at 10:18:04
Question for the forum.
Any experiences of thoughts on what happens if you let major depression continue without any medication?
I am currenty trying this approach myself...and so far have no success.
I am not suicidal....but I currently cannot function properly in society.
No Doctor has ever given me a staight answer on this question.
I have been depressed for several months now, without being on an AD since January.
Thanks in advance
BF
Posted by 49er on October 23, 2010, at 10:32:05
In reply to Will It Go Away On It's Own ?, posted by Buckeye Fan on October 23, 2010, at 10:18:04
> Question for the forum.
>
> Any experiences of thoughts on what happens if you let major depression continue without any medication?
>
> I am currenty trying this approach myself...and so far have no success.
>
> I am not suicidal....but I currently cannot function properly in society.
>
> No Doctor has ever given me a staight answer on this question.
>
> I have been depressed for several months now, without being on an AD since January.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> BFBF,
I know you're going to think I am a pain in the neck on this issue but how slow did you taper your meds? I know in a previous post that you said you tapered slowly but did you taper at 10% of current dose every 4 to 6 weeks?
If you tapered any faster, that could be the reason why you still have depression.
Also, you mentioned employment issues which are a big cause of depression. What are you doing to cope with that?
Have you read Anatomy of an Epidemic? The author, Robert Whitaker, did research that shows it resolves on its own without meds but it does take time.
Many years ago, my father had a very serious depression that the psychiatrist was able to help resolve without meds. Of course, the choices weren't as great but many doctors in that situation would have medicated him. After that episode, he never had another one.
Have you tried natural remedies from the list that Morgan suggested?
What about CBT?
Obviously, you have to make the call as to what is best for you. I definitely understand not being able to function and felt that way when I couldn't sleep thanks to withdrawal issues.
If I had found a doctor like the one someone had in another state who truly understood the use of micro does of meds for insomnia plus supplements, I would have seen that person. But that person doesn't exist in my state.
Fortunately, my problem has greatly improved and I take nothing for it.
I am just concerned you're going to get back on a med treadmill you can't get off of. But I do understand your concern about quality of life and only you can decide what is most important.
49er
Posted by Phillipa on October 23, 2010, at 11:32:35
In reply to Re: Will It Go Away On It's Own ? » Buckeye Fan, posted by 49er on October 23, 2010, at 10:32:05
It's a tough call. If meds work for you then I'd take them again. If like me they just don't and not taking a lot of drugs. I keep wondering if depression is supposed to resolve on it's own why don't they? Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on October 23, 2010, at 13:21:08
In reply to Re: Will It Go Away On It's Own ?, posted by Phillipa on October 23, 2010, at 11:32:35
Buckeye Fan what worked for you I have thought about it and if the meds worked for you then why suffer take them they do work for many. Phillipa
Posted by Buckeye Fan on October 23, 2010, at 14:43:05
In reply to Re: Will It Go Away On It's Own ?, posted by Phillipa on October 23, 2010, at 13:21:08
I have gotten relief in the past Phillipa....but at a cost.
From the studying I have done, for me personally
I am clinging to the belief that the body will make its own non-drug adjustments to recover from depression.Im not saying I can hold out forever...for as I mentioned THIS is no way to live.
Probabley the easiest example of how how feel is this:
Zoloft (for sake of example) prevents the re-uptake of seratonan, thus allowing more to be available, thus improving ones mood.
However.....
Doesnt it make sense that if that much seratonan was SUPPOSED to be left in the brain...then it would occur naturally.
The drug ( Zoloft) artificially keeps the body from doing what it was designed to do...remove the excess seratonan
And besides they THINK this is what happens....they still do not know for sure.See what I mean? Or is my thinking flawed?
BF
Posted by linkadge on October 23, 2010, at 16:25:14
In reply to Re: Will It Go Away On It's Own ?, posted by Buckeye Fan on October 23, 2010, at 14:43:05
It often can. For me, its all about stress management & getting a good nights sleep.
For me, insomnia causes the depression.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on October 23, 2010, at 16:27:46
In reply to Re: Will It Go Away On It's Own ?, posted by Buckeye Fan on October 23, 2010, at 14:43:05
The serotonin hypothesis is bunk.
For instance, this study suggests that SSRIs lower serotonin.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0006797
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on October 23, 2010, at 20:20:54
In reply to Re: Will It Go Away On It's Own ?, posted by Buckeye Fan on October 23, 2010, at 14:43:05
No you kind of remind me of the thoughts I get. Okay as an RN I had to give groups and actually teach what an SSRI does in the brain. I had videos supplied to me by the higher ups. My thoughts and how I explained it was most likely so very flawed. I would see a space with and exit and entrance. It showed sertonin entering this space and like a space ship it would land on a spot and stay there longer float around and get soaked up by brain and then exit the brain or that opening. So I'd think of it like a sponge and this spot would absorb more of serotonin. I just don't understand still how it's in the gut as never had an stomach problems but when first took prozac my anxiety climbed so high at 20mg I just stopped it. Now benzos just stopped it and back then didn't question them or need to wean off just stopped no problem. And at one time on .125mg of xanax every other day the doc said it was a placebo response I disagreed as could feel anxiety return. So I just don't get how SSRI's relieve anxiety. So I'm dumb stupid I just don't get it. Why did prozac act immediately after first dose and escalate so badly that by day three had to stop? Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on October 23, 2010, at 20:22:57
In reply to Re: Will It Go Away On It's Own ?, posted by Buckeye Fan on October 23, 2010, at 14:43:05
You say remove the serotonin and I was taught add? I don't know Phillipa
Posted by Christ_empowered on October 23, 2010, at 22:39:16
In reply to Will It Go Away On It's Own ?, posted by Buckeye Fan on October 23, 2010, at 10:18:04
How impaired are you? Since you're not suicidal or psychotic, I would think that the wait-and-see approach would be a valid option. One reason placebos score so high in depression treatment studies is that depression tends to remit after a while, with or without medical intervention.
Meds can sometimes improve the quality of life, though. That is..if they work, and if the side effects are bearable. I hate to be such a Debbie Downer/Bummer Bob, but we both know the meds aren't always that great. Have you tried supplements? Is therapy an option for you? What meds, if any, have worked in the past for you symptoms?
Posted by maxime on October 24, 2010, at 14:08:52
In reply to it might go away..., posted by Christ_empowered on October 23, 2010, at 22:39:16
I think it could go away on it's own but we don't know how long that would take. I once had a depression that lasted 3 years (with a manic episode prior to the depression)and that was whilst I was on meds. It could go away in weeks or months, you just never know.
Posted by maxime on October 24, 2010, at 15:10:15
In reply to Will It Go Away On It's Own ?, posted by Buckeye Fan on October 23, 2010, at 10:18:04
Why did you stop your meds in January? Was it because you felt better?
Posted by Buckeye Fan on October 25, 2010, at 7:47:48
In reply to Re: Will It Go Away On It's Own ? » Buckeye Fan, posted by maxime on October 24, 2010, at 15:10:15
> Why did you stop your meds in January? Was it because you felt better?
I was feeling better...but only because the meds were masking the symptoms.
I grew tired of being on an AD...as I had begun to experience the infamous " poop-out " effect, which is simply the brain adjusting to the medication, and the medication no longer producing the desired effect.
I guess my reasoning is that staying on an AD forever is not recommended...nor is advisable as we get older.
The body of research I have found convinced me that the best course of action for me was to discontinue the artifical mood boosting and numbing meds.....all the while hoping that my chemistry would compensate and produce more natural mood enhancing chemicals.
The return of severe depression has me second guessing my choice.
BF
Posted by Buckeye Fan on October 25, 2010, at 7:57:30
In reply to it might go away..., posted by Christ_empowered on October 23, 2010, at 22:39:16
> How impaired are you? Since you're not suicidal or psychotic, I would think that the wait-and-see approach would be a valid option.
I am impaired in the following ways.
1) Sad and hopeless every day all day.
2) No drive or initiative
3) Crying spells daily. ( And normally I am NOT a cryer...ever.)
4)Anxious all day and night.
5)Withdrawn...avoiding social contact and interaction with the outside world.
6)Restless..agitated.
7)Moderatley agoraphobic
One reason placebos score so high in depression treatment studies is that depression tends to remit after a while, with or without medical intervention.
>
> Meds can sometimes improve the quality of life, though. That is..if they work, and if the side effects are bearable. I hate to be such a Debbie Downer/Bummer Bob, but we both know the meds aren't always that great. Have you tried supplements? Is therapy an option for you? What meds, if any, have worked in the past for you symptoms?
>
>
I have not tried supplements, nor have I tried therapy in several years.Zoloft has worked in the past....both for the anxiety, agoraphobia and depression. Eventually however...depression returned inspite of being on 200 mg's of Zoloft per day.
BF
Posted by Buckeye Fan on October 25, 2010, at 8:16:09
In reply to Re: Will It Go Away On It's Own ? » Buckeye Fan, posted by 49er on October 23, 2010, at 10:32:05
> > >
> I know you're going to think I am a pain in the neck on this issue but how slow did you taper your meds? I know in a previous post that you said you tapered slowly but did you taper at 10% of current dose every 4 to 6 weeks?
>
> If you tapered any faster, that could be the reason why you still have depression.
I tapered 10 months ago 49er...so I have had almost a year to recover from any residual depression from tapering.
>
> Also, you mentioned employment issues which are a big cause of depression. What are you doing to cope with that?I am going on my 3rd week of being unemployed...but I was depressed and anxious even while working. Getting up every day to go to work was nearly unbearable...being there was torture....and as soon as I got off ...I would begin to worry and obsess about the next day of going in to work! Ridiculous I know ...but the truth.
So to answer your question.... I am doing nothing to address being unemployed.>
> Have you read Anatomy of an Epidemic? The author, Robert Whitaker, did research that shows it resolves on its own without meds but it does take time.
>
> Many years ago, my father had a very serious depression that the psychiatrist was able to help resolve without meds. Of course, the choices weren't as great but many doctors in that situation would have medicated him. After that episode, he never had another one.I guess that is my approach also...I am waiting for it to resolve on its own naturally.
>
> Have you tried natural remedies from the list that Morgan suggested?I apologize...but what list??
>
> What about CBT?
Therapy is probabley the one thing I am seriously considering. I would like to get to the root issues of why anxiety and depression has been a part of my life since my late teens/ early and young adulthood ...>
> Obviously, you have to make the call as to what is best for you. I definitely understand not being able to function and felt that way when I couldn't sleep thanks to withdrawal issues.
>
> If I had found a doctor like the one someone had in another state who truly understood the use of micro does of meds for insomnia plus supplements, I would have seen that person. But that person doesn't exist in my state.
>
> Fortunately, my problem has greatly improved and I take nothing for it.
>
> I am just concerned you're going to get back on a med treadmill you can't get off of. But I do understand your concern about quality of life and only you can decide what is most important.
>
> 49erYour concern is accurate 49er...I am worried I will cave in and begin to medicate again. This is the longest I have gone without taking an AD in 10 years.
My fear is that 10 years of taking mood enhancing drugs and benzodizopines have done irrepearable damage to my CNS and/or brain chemistry.....and that a "normal' drug free life is no lobger possible.
Unless of course I want to live the rest of my life with unbearable depression, anxiety and inability to function.BF
Posted by bleauberry on October 25, 2010, at 17:46:11
In reply to Will It Go Away On It's Own ?, posted by Buckeye Fan on October 23, 2010, at 10:18:04
Good question. Sometimes depression can lighten up on its own, go away, stay the same, or get worse. It depends on what the root cause of it is.
If there is a genetic mutation or snippet, it will continue. If there is gut dysbiosis, it will continue. If it is stress or lifestyle related, it could get better with a change in food choices and lifestyle. If it is an unsuspected (and likely undiagnosable) chronic bacterial, fungal, or viral infection it will continue.
There are actually some simple things you can do. B12 comes in 4 different metabolic forms...you need them all. Folate comes in at least 2 forms. Niacin in three forms. In conjuction with all the others in the B group. There are a couple companies that make B complex with all of these various versions in them...so without knowing which one you actually need, or where your genetic roadblock is, the ammo is there to bridge the roadblock. And you need methyl donors, which are in some of the specific B forms. Low dose SAMe provides them too, in addition to being proven an antidepressant on its own. Vit C (effervescent only), Magnesium Malate, all the other minerals especially in the Picolinate form as much as possible. No sugars. Limit caffeine. Try a rotation diet with all of this...skip all wheat/rye/oat products for 2 weeks (gluten free). A few years ago substitutes were hard to find, but today gluten free is a big deal and there are many good products. Even WalMart has a whole 8 foot section with some of them. Whole Food Market is your best source. Skip all dairy products for 2 weeks. These are the worst of the common food offenders that directly cause depressive behavior, for reasons too lengthy to explain here. Lots of purified water.
It's not a surprise a doctor can't give a straight answer. The most successful cure stories out there are the ones where the patient took control of his/her life instead of paying to put it in the lap of someone else who really doesn't know much more of what to do that you do...10 or 12 doctors and specialists later, and thousands of dollars later. With this post, you are now armed with power.
Psych meds "might" help depression, "maybe" for a while. They don't fix anything that is wrong causing the depression. If serotonin or dopamine are low, they are low for a reason. Merely artificially raising their availability does nothing to fix the problem, and can actually worsen it over time.
I like psych meds for short term use. In your case, even though you may not have known it when you posted, you are seeking options. You instinctively seem to know meds are not the answer for you and you instinctively know there is something deeper going on. I applaud that.
But to do nothing? I don't like that. People end up dead on the end of a rope that way. What I am saying is, there are powerful things you can do to feel a lot better without going back to the psychiatrist.
> Question for the forum.
>
> Any experiences of thoughts on what happens if you let major depression continue without any medication?
>
> I am currenty trying this approach myself...and so far have no success.
>
> I am not suicidal....but I currently cannot function properly in society.
>
> No Doctor has ever given me a staight answer on this question.
>
> I have been depressed for several months now, without being on an AD since January.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> BF
Posted by maxime on October 25, 2010, at 21:01:35
In reply to Re: Will It Go Away On It's Own ?, posted by Buckeye Fan on October 25, 2010, at 7:47:48
Yes, the problem with stopping meds is that usually the depression will return. And not only will it return, but it will be worse than the initial depression.
Posted by 49er on October 27, 2010, at 2:16:24
In reply to Re: Will It Go Away On It's Own ?, posted by Buckeye Fan on October 25, 2010, at 8:16:09
Hi Buckeye Fan,
> I tapered 10 months ago 49er...so I have had almost a year to recover from any residual depression from tapering.
Hmm, there have been people on Paxil Progress Boards who took longer than 10 months to completely recover from tapering and they are now doing fine.
I just don't understand the imposed time limit, especially when psych meds made neurochemical changes throughout the body that take a long time to reverse.
I do understand when you're suffering, that is hard to give yourself more time. But if you're using a time frame to decide you haven't recovered, than that is the wrong strategy in my opinion.
<<So to answer your question.... I am doing nothing to address being unemployed.>>
Sorry, I wasn't very clear. My point is the being unemployed is very depressing as one who is in a similar situation. I didn't mean to imply you weren't doing anything about it.
Are you getting any support for that since it may be contributing to your depression?
> > Have you tried natural remedies from the list that Morgan suggested?
>
>
> I apologize...but what list??No apologies necessary. I am the one who should be apologizing:) since I can't find the list.
Anyway, I think Bleauberry provided some of that information. I would start with fish oil if you're not on it. Go for a high EPA to DHA ratio.
>
> Therapy is probabley the one thing I am seriously considering. I would like to get to the root issues of why anxiety and depression has been a part of my life since my late teens/ early and young adulthood ...Actually, CBT doesn't look at the root issues. It helps you change your current thought patterns.
For example, one of my weaknesses is I will think a family member should do this or doesn't do that. In the past, that would be a recipe for depression big time.
With CBT, I will examine if my thought process is realistic and find that it isn't.
Don't get me wrong, I am not putting down the type of therapy you mentioned. But trying to find the explanation for everything in your childhood can take forever and isn't always useful.
> Your concern is accurate 49er...I am worried I will cave in and begin to medicate again. This is the longest I have gone without taking an AD in 10 years.
> My fear is that 10 years of taking mood enhancing drugs and benzodizopines have done irrepearable damage to my CNS and/or brain chemistry.....and that a "normal' drug free life is no lobger possible.
> Unless of course I want to live the rest of my life with unbearable depression, anxiety and inability to function.
>
BF, I was on a med cocktail for 15 years. Mostly 3 med but the last few years, I was on 4.I completely got off of meds last June by tapering very slowly. I am living that normal drug free life.
My major challenge has been insomnia but that has definitely improved. The next challenge I have to work on is brain fog which I intend to try to alleviate with a gluten free diet.
I started going that route and I do see progress so I want to refine things.
Don't misunderstand me BF, I am not saying that tapering was easy as it was one of the hardest things I ever did in my life. But staying on meds wasn't an option for me as I felt they were causing horrific side effects that were only going to get worse over time.
Anyway, good luck.
49er
Posted by linkadge on October 28, 2010, at 16:58:27
In reply to Re: Will It Go Away On It's Own ? » Buckeye Fan, posted by 49er on October 27, 2010, at 2:16:24
I am having varying degrees of sucess off meds. There are always a few symptoms that never go away and eventually cause major depression to return.
Doctors are so narrowminded. They just see it in terms of taking medication or not taking medication. For me, taking medication is as poor an answer as not taking it. I just trade some symptoms for other symptoms. Overall, I just feel better off medications, that doesn't mean I am well.
I keep asking myself "what do I want?", "what am I really looking for".
--> be able to sleep at night
--> not feel worthless, sad, or anergic the next day.Thats all really.
Linkadge
Posted by Buckeye Fan on October 29, 2010, at 6:59:35
In reply to Re: Will It Go Away On It's Own ? » Buckeye Fan, posted by 49er on October 27, 2010, at 2:16:24
To 49er
Thanks for all the info and your advice/ perspective. I will give myself more time and look into Fish Oil and all-natural mood enhancing supplements.
BF
Posted by Buckeye Fan on October 29, 2010, at 7:02:34
In reply to Re: Will It Go Away On It's Own ?, posted by linkadge on October 28, 2010, at 16:58:27
> I am having varying degrees of sucess off meds. There are always a few symptoms that never go away and eventually cause major depression to return.
>
> Doctors are so narrowminded. They just see it in terms of taking medication or not taking medication. For me, taking medication is as poor an answer as not taking it. I just trade some symptoms for other symptoms. Overall, I just feel better off medications, that doesn't mean I am well.
>
> I keep asking myself "what do I want?", "what am I really looking for".
>
> --> be able to sleep at night
> --> not feel worthless, sad, or anergic the next day.
>
> Thats all really.
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>Linkage,
I can relate to your post...and I am sorry you struggle. At least we can take comfort in the fact that we are not alone...and that there IS information out there for support.Hang in there..and thanks for the reply.
BF
This is the end of the thread.
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