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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by floatingbridge on September 15, 2010, at 12:42:16
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » linkadge, posted by Deneb on September 14, 2010, at 20:10:25
> It's not in all countries that more men than women kill themselves. I think in rural China a lot more women succeed.
>
>Deneb, I didn't realize this.
Posted by floatingbridge on September 15, 2010, at 13:04:09
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » floatingbridge, posted by Dinah on September 14, 2010, at 17:07:00
> From how you describe the timing, it sounds manipulative or angry. I'm sure that does happen at times. I just don't think it's necessarily true all the time.
>Yes. I think I understand more. Perhaps my grandmother wasn't exactly *suicidal*. The gestures were code in her case, her case being anomaly and not the norm. Her case is one someone could point to as (erroneous) evidence of suicide as manipulative and selfish.
> I suppose it's possible that your uncle's return home from school triggered something in her. But, having a son myself, I find it very hard to understand.,
>I find it difficult, myself, as a daughter of her daughter, and now a mother. Her
pain must have been wickedly ferocious. Being a mother made and makes everything more intense for me. The stakes are higher. Perhaps intervention for my grandmother or forgoing child rearing. This was less an option in the late 30's.> I wish for your family's sake that medications and effective therapy had been available to her. That's an awful way to grow up.
Thank you Dinah. Me, too. It's an awful legacy.
Thanks, your response was helpful.
Posted by Maxime on September 15, 2010, at 19:43:37
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion..., posted by floatingbridge on September 15, 2010, at 13:04:09
People complain that people attempt suicide for attention. Well, yes, yes they do. They don't know how else to communicate how bloody awful they feel. I don't think it's being manipulative. I think it's a way of expressing pain when they don't know what else to do.
Posted by emmanuel98 on September 15, 2010, at 20:34:33
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » floatingbridge, posted by Maxime on September 15, 2010, at 19:43:37
There are people who frequently make suicidal "gestures" -- slit thier wrist with razor blades, take overdoses of antidepressants or of ibuprofen or tylenol -- things that aren't going to be fatal and the person knows this. there are also people who make more serious suicidal gestures -- taking an overdose within minutes of thier husband arriving home, threatening to hang themselves with other people present to find them and stop them. There are also people who threaten suicide constantly as a way to manipulate others and express unhappiness. My mother-in-law did this and terrified her children. I see this as an example of histrionic behavior, self-dramatizing and manipulative, even if the person doesn't have the self-awareness to realize it's manipulative, other people experience it that way.
This is very different from people who become severely depressed and obsessed by intrusive thoughts of suicide, who actually research what works and what doesn't, who seriously attempt suicide and either fail or get scared at the last moment. These are not gestures. These are genuine expressions of despair. I have had this problem and never threatened or talked about suicide to my family or therapists. I just went directly to the emergency room after two failed attempts. It is not shameful to attempt and fail. It is not shameful to pull back at the last minute. It is some healthy part of your mind reasserting itself and remembering that you have loved ones and responsibilities.
Posted by floatingbridge on September 15, 2010, at 21:17:35
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion..., posted by emmanuel98 on September 15, 2010, at 20:34:33
That was well put. Thanks.
Posted by linkadge on September 16, 2010, at 7:09:16
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » floatingbridge, posted by Maxime on September 15, 2010, at 19:43:37
>Well, yes, yes they do. They don't know how else >to communicate how bloody awful they feel. I >don't think it's being manipulative. I think >it's a way of expressing pain when they don't >know what else to do.
First of all, what is manipulative? What does the fake suicide attempter really gain? I really don't think it results in better treatment. Perhaps more time in the hospital, or higher doses of the same inneffective drugs but...
I think if you just tell a doctor you're suicidal, this will warrent the best treatment they have.
I do think it is being manipulative. You're being deceiptful about how you feel. You're not bad enough to want to complete it, you're only bad enough to want to make people think you will follow through. I.e. you want people to think that the situation is worse than it is.
Sure you may say, "well I really feel like doing it", but there is a *big* gap between feeling like doing it, and actually doing it", and by faking it, you're saying things have reached a stage that they really havn't.
Posted by linkadge on September 16, 2010, at 7:27:11
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion..., posted by emmanuel98 on September 15, 2010, at 20:34:33
>It is not shameful to attempt and fail. It is >not shameful to pull back at the last minute. It >is some healthy part of your mind reasserting >itself and remembering that you have loved ones >and responsibilities.
I do agree with you in a sense. But another part of me still doesn't really understand.
I'm not saying *part* of the suicidal individual don't want to die, but I am saying that people make the decision to chose a method that is:
a) 100% lethal or not
b) can be backed out of or notIf you chose a method less than this, then (consiously or subconsiously) you don't 100% want to die.
Linkadge
Posted by Dinah on September 16, 2010, at 8:03:55
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » emmanuel98, posted by linkadge on September 16, 2010, at 7:27:11
> I'm not saying *part* of the suicidal individual don't want to die, but I am saying that people make the decision to chose a method that is:
>
> a) 100% lethal or not
> b) can be backed out of or not
>
> If you chose a method less than this, then (consiously or subconsiously) you don't 100% want to die.
>
> LinkadgeI'm getting the impression that you believe others think about suicide the same way you do.
For example, some people have preferences as to *how* they'd like to die. Perhaps for the sake of the ones they leave behind, perhaps for other reasons. They may not have the odds of success at their fingertips. Suicide can be impulsive.
Other people don't think about suicide in the same terms you do. And why not? Not all people think about *anything* in the same terms.
The fact is that people who use less than 100% lethal means may not die 100% of the time, but they *do* die. People with a history of suicidal gestures end up dying all the time. It's happened on this site, to someone I cared about. I don't want to say "succeeding". I don't know their intentions. I can't possibly know their intentions. I just know what a loss it is.
I don't think it's helpful to anyone to believe that they should choose a more certainly lethal means of death if they really want to die. Failing at suicide leads to living and, with the proper help, living is the best outcome for everyone.
Can you just accept that this is something that causes you anxiety or anger, and that it isn't how you think about suicide or you don't understand, without stating your beliefs about the motivations of others? How can you know the motivations of others? How can you know the thinking processes of someone experiencing a mixed state, for example? All you can really know is the effect it has on you. What you feel when it happens.
You appear to have very strong feelings about this. Are you wrestling with suicidal feelings yourself right now? Is someone in your personal life causing you anxiety?
Posted by chujoe on September 16, 2010, at 11:25:28
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » linkadge, posted by Dinah on September 16, 2010, at 8:03:55
>>How can you know the motivations of others?<<
Yes, exactly. That gap of uncertainty makes me hesitant to judge.
Posted by violette on September 16, 2010, at 11:32:17
In reply to suicidality exhaustion..., posted by linkadge on September 12, 2010, at 15:20:09
I took the time to read the whole article i posted about borderline..it sort of provides a view into the inner world of someone who may have borderline, whether high or low functioning. I never completely understood the suicidal gestures often associated with borderline or other dx, but feel more sympathetic about it after reading more in depth about it.
That some people with mental illness get dx with a 'character disorder' upsets me. i don't know anyone in person with that dx, although i suspect one of my family members may be borderline but gets treated for bipolar. I have met some people online with that dx though, and the stigma associated with that dx often adds unfavorable effects to their healthcare and illness, though the prognosis seems to be better than it used to be.
I wanted to mention-more women i know than not have been sexually abused by authority figures and family members. Step-fathers, police, school coaches, doctors, fathers, psychotherapists, uncles, etc. I personally know one man with this experience. But in every case i can think of-the abuser, to my knowledge, was never a mental health patient.
Borderline is often the result of sexual abuse, not always, but it's pretty common. So are other psychological problems that may last a very long time. So why is it-that people sexually abused get labeled with a character/personality disorder, as if they are somehow defective-to add to their pain and already fragile sense of self, while the abusers go on with their lives without similar repercussions?
Some sexual abusers end up in jail, but in the many cases i know, they just go about their lives. Maybe they do or don't end up dealing with guilt the rest of their lives. it's reported that 20-25 percent of all women are sexually abused before they are 20. And maybe those are only the reported cases? The rate is much, much higher among people i know. Whenever i make a new friend, almost every woman i get to know better ends up disclosing being raped or sexually abused at some point in their life.
I think that's one thing that makes me angry about the axis ii stuff being seperated from mental illness, aside that i think it's mental illness all the same. People express inner pain in different ways, i guess I feel uncomfortable with lack of understanding or empathy, in general, for people that have never been in another's shoes.
Many people out there don't have this outward expression of behavior associated with mental illness-such as those who sexually abuse-and continue to go around hurting others, yet are pretty ill themselves but would likely not end up in the mental health system. That, to me, is more of a 'character' disorder than anyone with borderline could ever be.
Posted by linkadge on September 16, 2010, at 18:40:30
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » linkadge, posted by Dinah on September 16, 2010, at 8:03:55
>I don't think it's helpful to anyone to believe >that they should choose a more certainly lethal >means of death if they really want to die. >Failing at suicide leads to living and, with the >proper help, living is the best outcome for >everyone.
Well I do agree with you on that one, which is why I am prepared to drop this argument, for the sake of people's mental health.
I just can't (personally) imagine attmepting it if there was *any* way wouldn't work.
B.T.W. I am personally fine right now. I did not bring this up because I was at all suicidal - more confused.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on September 16, 2010, at 18:43:32
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion..., posted by chujoe on September 16, 2010, at 11:25:28
>>How can you know the motivations of others?<<
I can't. Thats exactly my point. I just don't understand. I personally get frustrated with people who make multiple faild attempts because I don't understand it.
Linkadge
Posted by emmanuel98 on September 16, 2010, at 19:02:47
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » emmanuel98, posted by linkadge on September 16, 2010, at 7:27:11
> If you chose a method less than this, then (consiously or subconsiously) you don't 100% want to die.
>
> Linkadge
And so what is wrong with this? That you want to die 90% but not 100%. Are you saying that anything less than 100% is being a wimpy pathetic loser? I don't know what your point is.
>
>
>
>
>
Posted by Maxime on September 16, 2010, at 20:19:24
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » linkadge, posted by emmanuel98 on September 16, 2010, at 19:02:47
Well, I have posted on PB when I was *very* suicidal. I would never post if I was going to attempt suicide at such a such time/day but I certainly have posted when I am pretty darn close to doing it. I find the people here very
supportive and they help me in so many ways. For instance three weeks ago I was very close to attempting suicide and posted on PB how I felt. People encouraged me to get help, would check on me every day via Babble Mail. That's how I ended up at the Crisis Centre.I am not being manipulative when I make those types of posts. I am looking for support and comfort. I am not really looking for attention in the manipulative form, but I am trying to bring it to peoples attention that I am unwell. I don't have too many people in real life who support me. I have lost friends along the way. But I am can always count on the support and understanding here on PB.
So Link, I may post those types of posts again if I get really bad. Just don't read them.
Maxime
Posted by floatingbridge on September 16, 2010, at 21:29:56
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » emmanuel98, posted by linkadge on September 16, 2010, at 7:27:11
> I do agree with you in a sense. But another part of me still doesn't really understand.
>
> I'm not saying *part* of the suicidal individual don't want to die, but I am saying that people make the decision to chose a method that is:
>
> a) 100% lethal or not
> b) can be backed out of or not
>
> If you chose a method less than this, then (consiously or subconsiously) you don't 100% want to die.
>This thread has been helping me to think through various related issues, like my grandmother's behavior and the repercussions for many generations. I
now wonder what the heck happened to her in Eastern Europe. Dinah was kind enough to comment. Many other comments not directly about my grandmother helped too.I've also thought through some personal issues. I have never attempted suicide,
though I have depression since childhood, abuse issues, etc. At my worst, I have heard, like a drumbeat in
my head, "I wish I were dead, etc". How many children say this in childhood? I
did. Medication and therapy have been
able to stop that automatic thinking, and
I am fortunate. When I slip, there that voice is. I've learned that engaging in this behavior is the sign that I need help asap.From this discussion, I also realize that, during the worst periods, I might not have been far from a suicide attempt
(car crash, pills) because attempts can be very impulse based.I have never truely wanted to be 100%
dead. Whatever the percentage was, I really wanted to feel better. I wanted
the pain to stop.Ambivalence is pretty much a human
trait, isn't it, though I'm not sure. To a greater or lesser degree. So is the
tolerance for ambivalence. Some despise
it, others thrive. I think I can imagine
now how suicide is thought of by various individuals, thanks to this discussion.How different we all are. When I was young and worked a late night crisis line,
our rule of thumb was that all suicidal talk was to be taken literally--that is, seriously, regardless of how often someone may have called, or if the caller was on a lark. I was sooooo naive. I did
my job, and well enough, but understand more deeply now.Ambivalence is o.k. More than o.k., ambivalence just is, like chlorophyll is green and water feels wet. To assign or insist upon a degree of sincerity in a suicidal gesture, thought, or ironclad
attempt seems to leave out alot of potential meaning and is a red herring that can lead productive thinking astray. Link, this post isn't directed toward you specifically. Though your posts have kicked off quite a discussion, what I see you saying above is that you do not understand and that you are trying to understand. I think that, in itself, is great.
Posted by SLS on September 17, 2010, at 5:53:00
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion..., posted by Maxime on September 16, 2010, at 20:19:24
> Well, I have posted on PB when I was *very* suicidal.
Some researchers like J. J. Mann believe that there is actually a neurobiological substrate for feelings of suicidality that are not tied to thoughts. It is comprised of both genetic and epigenetic factors. The point is, that for many people, feelings of suicide occur no matter what they are thinking or trying to think. It is virtually beyond their control. Anger and anxiety are often tied to the act itself. Perhaps there is a degree of impulsivity for carrying out the act. It can sometimes be an act of aggression.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on September 17, 2010, at 7:51:48
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » linkadge, posted by emmanuel98 on September 16, 2010, at 19:02:47
>And so what is wrong with this? That you want to >die 90% but not 100%. Are you saying that >anything less than 100% is being a wimpy >pathetic loser? I don't know what your point is.
No, I'm just saying that when you attempt suicide, generally either a) you die, or b) you end up hurting yourself really badly.
So, then wouldn't it make more logical sense, to either do, or do not?
Now of course, as I said, failing is better than succeeding, but I guess the point I'm trying to make is,
If you're not 100% sure you want to die...DON'T ATTEMPT IT!!!
Anything else, just doesn't make logical sense to me, since you open up the door to the possiblitiy of making your situation much much worse.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on September 17, 2010, at 8:11:29
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » linkadge, posted by floatingbridge on September 16, 2010, at 21:29:56
>I have never truely wanted to be 100%
>dead. Whatever the percentage was, I really >wanted to feel better. I wanted
>the pain to stop.Yes, I agree with you. Thats exactly my point, people want to feel *better*. But, attempting suicide, with anything less than 100% resolve, is completely incongruent with the individual's motives. People who fail at suicide can often feel much, much *worse*: irriversable brain damage, organ damage, gunshot wounds, blindness, paralysis, disfigurement etc. etc.
I just think that resolving to do something (or attempt) something so drastic as suicide without having completely thought though your intentions and all possible outcomes is extremely foolish.
But as mentioned, I realize that when people are in such a state, they're not thinking logically. They're not thinking through all the potential consequences.
Linkadge
Posted by Maxime on September 17, 2010, at 10:40:55
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » Maxime, posted by SLS on September 17, 2010, at 5:53:00
> > Well, I have posted on PB when I was *very* suicidal.
>
> Some researchers like J. J. Mann believe that there is actually a neurobiological substrate for feelings of suicidality that are not tied to thoughts. It is comprised of both genetic and epigenetic factors. The point is, that for many people, feelings of suicide occur no matter what they are thinking or trying to think. It is virtually beyond their control. Anger and anxiety are often tied to the act itself. Perhaps there is a degree of impulsivity for carrying out the act. It can sometimes be an act of aggression.
>
>
> - ScottThat's interesting. I know that I have been suicidal and not depressed which is weird.
I think about suicide a lot.Wherever I go I try to spot possible suicide options (tall building, construction, metro). I tired of seeing Montreal through my eyes
Posted by violette on September 17, 2010, at 10:58:09
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » emmanuel98, posted by linkadge on September 17, 2010, at 7:51:48
> So, then wouldn't it make more logical sense, to either do, or do not?
Emotions aren't logical...and that's very relevant-some people are overtaken by emotions, commonly referred to as 'emotional dysregulation'.
Others can consistently use logic to compensate or cover emotional distress. People can develop patterns from childhood. And as Scott pointed out, some people are more prone to lack of impulse control. It could be aggression-turned against the self-or aggression-against others when one feels helpless. Temperment can influence the patterns we develop. Some people are born more sensitive than others; some more agressive.
Being overly logical/rational can be just as maladaptive as being unable to regulate emotions. Some people do that consistently, often shutting out emotions. Others oscilate.
I'm moderately schitzotypal-so I tend to comparmentalize emotion from thought to compensate...so although i don't make suicidal gestures, as i sort of 'regulate my emotions' by seperating them from thought, this maladaptive trait causes a host of other problems as well. Much like rationalizing. Eventually these coping mechanisms just don't hold up-it is tiring for our brains to do this.
The key, imo, is to slowly integrate disavowed emotions with thought, undoing old patterns, to develop a new, healthy sense of self, which in turn, builds ego strength.
Posted by violette on September 17, 2010, at 11:01:45
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » floatingbridge, posted by linkadge on September 17, 2010, at 8:11:29
> But as mentioned, I realize that when people are in such a state, they're not thinking logically. They're not thinking through all the potential consequences.
That's what i was trying to explain in my last post, but didn't see your post here.
some people are overcome by emotions...where the 'rational' part of the brain sort of shuts down. Emotional dysregulation. Others are sort of trapped in the logic/rational part of the brain.
Just adding for general discussion, not to anyone here in particular...
Posted by floatingbridge on September 17, 2010, at 11:19:50
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » Maxime, posted by SLS on September 17, 2010, at 5:53:00
> Some researchers like J. J. Mann believe that there is actually a neurobiological substrate for feelings of suicidality that are not tied to thoughts. It is comprised of both genetic and epigenetic factors.What is epigenetic?
And if so, are therapies proposed?
Posted by floatingbridge on September 17, 2010, at 14:31:34
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » SLS, posted by Maxime on September 17, 2010, at 10:40:55
> That's interesting. I know that I have been suicidal and not depressed which is weird.
>
> I think about suicide a lot.Wherever I go I try to spot possible suicide options (tall building, construction, metro). I tired of seeing Montreal through my eyesThat is interesting Maxime. I cannot say I have felt suicidal in the absence of depression. (I cannot say I recall the absence of depression.) Very interesting.
Googling epigentics led to all sorts of things, notably a wiki entry on foster care and it's aftermath. Thought Violette would be interested.
Posted by SLS on September 17, 2010, at 14:54:46
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion..., posted by floatingbridge on September 17, 2010, at 11:19:50
>
> > Some researchers like J. J. Mann believe that there is actually a neurobiological substrate for feelings of suicidality that are not tied to thoughts. It is comprised of both genetic and epigenetic factors.
>
> What is epigenetic?Simply stated, it is anything arising from non-genetic factors. However, such things can interact with the organism to change gene activity.
> And if so, are therapies proposed?
Certainly. However, it depends on what you are treating. To help prevent the repetition of acts of suicide, cognitive therapies have been suggested. I guess pychotherapies must be as varied as the people needing help. I have seen interpersonal therapy, CBT, and DBT mentioned. It has been suggested that almost any kind of psychotherapy is helpful in reducing suicide attempts as many patients find hope in the expectation that what they are doing will bring them relief. In fact, a reduction in the rate of suicide attempts has been demonstrated to be similar with both antidepressant treatment and psychotherapies. At the NIMH, NIH, they noticed that people coming in for treatment often reported feeling better for the first two weeks regardless of treatment status.
- Scott
Posted by Maxime on September 17, 2010, at 21:25:45
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » emmanuel98, posted by linkadge on September 17, 2010, at 7:51:48
> >And so what is wrong with this? That you want to >die 90% but not 100%. Are you saying that >anything less than 100% is being a wimpy >pathetic loser? I don't know what your point is.
>
> No, I'm just saying that when you attempt suicide, generally either a) you die, or b) you end up hurting yourself really badly.
>
> So, then wouldn't it make more logical sense, to either do, or do not?
>
> Now of course, as I said, failing is better than succeeding, but I guess the point I'm trying to make is,
>
> If you're not 100% sure you want to die...DON'T ATTEMPT IT!!!
>
> Anything else, just doesn't make logical sense to me, since you open up the door to the possiblitiy of making your situation much much worse.
>
> Linkadge
>
>Nothing is fool proof. People shoot themselves in the head and they just end up blowing half their face off. They stand in front of a train and just end up losing their legs. They try to drown themselves and they end of brain dead. Just because a person doesn't succeed it doesn't mean that they didn't want to die
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