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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by angels78 on August 17, 2010, at 22:51:19
Why is it suggested to take Vitamin B6 W/ Nardil?
I read it is especially helpful to take B6 at seperate times of the day when taking Nardil. Why is this?
Posted by Tomatheus on August 17, 2010, at 23:33:14
In reply to Why is it suggested to take Vitamin B6 W/ Nardil?, posted by angels78 on August 17, 2010, at 22:51:19
Angels78,
It is suggested to take vitamin B6 with Nardil because Nardil reduces plasma B6 levels. See:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1188621/
I haven't personally come across the material that you came across stating that it is helpful to take B6 at separate times of the day when taking it with Nardil. As to why this is suggested, I would guess that taking B6 once a day might not be sufficient to keep B6 levels normalized over the course of a 24-hour period.
Tomatheus
Posted by morgan miller on August 17, 2010, at 23:50:19
In reply to Re: Why is it suggested to take Vitamin B6 W/ Nardil? » angels78, posted by Tomatheus on August 17, 2010, at 23:33:14
Take P5P, it's the best form of B6.
I am convinced that most psychiatric medications interfere with the absorption of or reduce levels of essential vitamins and minerals. I'm surprised more of an emphasis is not put on replacing what we could be losing while on psych meds.
Posted by angels78 on August 18, 2010, at 0:26:17
In reply to Re: Why is it suggested to take Vitamin B6 W/ Nardil? » angels78, posted by Tomatheus on August 17, 2010, at 23:33:14
> Angels78,
>
> It is suggested to take vitamin B6 with Nardil because Nardil reduces plasma B6 levels. See:
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1188621/
>
> I haven't personally come across the material that you came across stating that it is helpful to take B6 at separate times of the day when taking it with Nardil. As to why this is suggested, I would guess that taking B6 once a day might not be sufficient to keep B6 levels normalized over the course of a 24-hour period.
>
> TomatheusSo does this mean Nardil can be more effective if taken with B6?
Posted by Phillipa on August 18, 2010, at 0:41:10
In reply to Re: Why is it suggested to take Vitamin B6 W/ Nardil?, posted by angels78 on August 18, 2010, at 0:26:17
Unrelated to nardil but was told to take B6 when had perimenopause as helped with water weight. I still take 50 of b6 for water. Phillipa
Posted by Tomatheus on August 18, 2010, at 1:29:48
In reply to Re: Why is it suggested to take Vitamin B6 W/ Nardil?, posted by angels78 on August 18, 2010, at 0:26:17
> So does this mean Nardil can be more effective if taken with B6?
I don't think it's known whether adding vitamin B6 to Nardil would boost the medication's effectiveness. B6 is involved in neurotransmitter synthesis, so it can be hypothesized that taking the vitamin in addition to Nardil might boost the medication's antidepressant benefits, but as far as I know there is no direct evidence to support this hypothesis.
Tomatheus
Posted by SLS on August 18, 2010, at 5:44:56
In reply to Re: Why is it suggested to take Vitamin B6 W/ Nardil?, posted by morgan miller on August 17, 2010, at 23:50:19
> Take P5P, it's the best form of B6.
I know this sounds pretty weird, but for me, P5P produced a swing into severe suicidal depression. It was acute and occurred in within 3 hours post-dose.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on August 18, 2010, at 5:47:20
In reply to Re: Why is it suggested to take Vitamin B6 W/ Nardil? » angels78, posted by Tomatheus on August 18, 2010, at 1:29:48
> > So does this mean Nardil can be more effective if taken with B6?
>
> I don't think it's known whether adding vitamin B6 to Nardil would boost the medication's effectiveness. B6 is involved in neurotransmitter synthesis, so it can be hypothesized that taking the vitamin in addition to Nardil might boost the medication's antidepressant benefits, but as far as I know there is no direct evidence to support this hypothesis.Deplin (methylfolate) maybe.
- Scott
Posted by Ron Hill on August 18, 2010, at 8:13:52
In reply to Re: Why is it suggested to take Vitamin B6 W/ Nardil? » angels78, posted by Tomatheus on August 18, 2010, at 1:29:48
> > So does this mean Nardil can be more effective if taken with B6?
>
> I don't think it's known whether adding vitamin B6 to Nardil would boost the medication's effectiveness. B6 is involved in neurotransmitter synthesis, so it can be hypothesized that taking the vitamin in addition to Nardil might boost the medication's antidepressant benefits, but as far as I know there is no direct evidence to support this hypothesis.
>
> Tomatheus
-------------Hi Tomatheus,
B6 supplementation is needed because Nardil destroys B6. However, high doses of B6 destroy Nardil. So, there is a therapeutic window of B6 supplementation. Here is a link to a document that discusses this issue and several other issues regarding phenelzine.
I will provide the link to the article followed by the applicable excerpt from the document:
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Phenelzine
<begin excerpt>
Phenelzine has also been linked to vitamin B6 deficiency. It reacts with vitamin B6 via an unknown enzyme to form a biologically inert metabolite. Both phenelzine and vitamin B6 are rendered inactive upon this reaction occurring.
For this reason, it is recommended to supplement with vitamin B6 while taking phenelzine. High doses of vitamin B6 may significantly lower phenelzine levels and subsequently inhibit its therapeutic benefits, however, and thus, excess quantities of vitamin B6 should be avoided.
It may be advisable to dose them separately during opposite intervals of the day (e.g., take one, then take the other 12 hours later) to avoid interaction as much as possible.
<end excerpt>
Here is an article from JAMA. I will provide the link to the full text document, and I will provide an excerpt that addresses the fact that B6 is active in neurotransmitter formation and a plethora of enzymatic reactions:http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/287/23/3116
<begin excerpt>
Vitamin B6
Vitamin B6 refers to a group of nitrogen-containing compounds with 3 primary forms: pyridoxine, pyridoxal, and pyridoxamine. They are water soluble and are found in a variety of plant and animal products.The current RDI for vitamin B6 is 2 mg. The best dietary sources include poultry, fish, meat, legumes, nuts, potatoes, and whole grains.
Vitamin B6 participates in more than 100 enzymatic reactions and is needed for protein metabolism, conversion of tryptophan to niacin, and neurotransmitter formation, among other functions. Deficiency is uncommon, although marginal B6 status may be related to CHD.
True deficiency results in cheilosis, stomatitis, effects on the central nervous system (including depression), and neuropathy. Toxicity is unusual and has been associated with neurotoxicity and photosensitivity with doses higher than 500 mg/d.
<end excerpt>
-- Ron
Posted by morgan miller on August 18, 2010, at 9:06:19
In reply to Re: Why is it suggested to take Vitamin B6 W/ Nardil? » morgan miller, posted by SLS on August 18, 2010, at 5:44:56
> > Take P5P, it's the best form of B6.
>
> I know this sounds pretty weird, but for me, P5P produced a swing into severe suicidal depression. It was acute and occurred in within 3 hours post-dose.
>
>
> - ScottNot weird at all. For whatever reason, each individual has their own idiosyncratic reaction, even to such harmless substances as P5P. Do you think it's possible it was reacting with something you were taking. Or, maybe P5P would have had either no reaction or given you some relief at another time in your life when your chemistry/physiology was operating a bit differently? Who knows. What dose did you take? Did you try a lower dose?
I personally don't get anything great from P5P, I just take it because I know it is a good form and is an potential anti-glycation agent. I may have even had an adverse reaction to P5P a few times, it's hard to tell with all the pills I pop every day.
Posted by angels78 on August 18, 2010, at 11:34:38
In reply to Re: Why is it suggested to take Vitamin B6 W/ Nardil? » Tomatheus, posted by Ron Hill on August 18, 2010, at 8:13:52
What would be a efficient dosage of B6 to take while on Nardil?
Posted by ed_uk2010 on August 18, 2010, at 17:03:47
In reply to Re: Why is it suggested to take Vitamin B6 W/ Nardil? » Ron Hill, posted by angels78 on August 18, 2010, at 11:34:38
>What would be a efficient dosage of B6 to take while on Nardil?
I'm not Ron, but if I were you I'd probably just go with pyridoxine 10mg/day.
Posted by SLS on August 18, 2010, at 17:26:09
In reply to Re: Why is it suggested to take Vitamin B6 W/ Nardil?, posted by morgan miller on August 18, 2010, at 9:06:19
> > > Take P5P, it's the best form of B6.
> >
> > I know this sounds pretty weird, but for me, P5P produced a swing into severe suicidal depression. It was acute and occurred in within 3 hours post-dose.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> Not weird at all. For whatever reason, each individual has their own idiosyncratic reaction, even to such harmless substances as P5P. Do you think it's possible it was reacting with something you were taking.I wouldn't be able to tell for sure one way or the other. I didn't try to discontinue any of the other agents in my treatment regime.
> Or, maybe P5P would have had either no reaction or given you some relief at another time in your life when your chemistry/physiology was operating a bit differently? Who knows. What dose did you take? Did you try a lower dose?
I don't recall what dose I took. I reacted so badly to the first dose, I couldn't justify taking a second.
> I personally don't get anything great from P5P, I just take it because I know it is a good form and is an potential anti-glycation agent. I may have even had an adverse reaction to P5P a few times, it's hard to tell with all the pills I pop every day.
Yeah. It gets to be a real drag when you pop so many pills and receive so little benefit.
- Scott
Posted by Tomatheus on August 18, 2010, at 18:18:53
In reply to Re: Why is it suggested to take Vitamin B6 W/ Nardil? » Tomatheus, posted by Ron Hill on August 18, 2010, at 8:13:52
Posted by Ezrahite on August 24, 2010, at 4:10:29
In reply to Re: Why is it suggested to take Vitamin B6 W/ Nardil? » morgan miller, posted by SLS on August 18, 2010, at 5:44:56
> I know this sounds pretty weird, but for me, P5P produced a swing into severe suicidal depression. It was acute and occurred in within 3 hours post-dose.
>
>
> - ScottI had a similar reaction to highish doses of regular B6, over the space of a few days. I fell into intense bitterness and inner rage. I was on Parnate at the time, and ate some leftover teriyaki knowing it might kill me. I kept taking the B6 and the reaction went away, but I also stopped taking the Parnate at that time, so I couldn't rule out it being some kind of interaction.
Orthomolecular medicine has a theory about negative initial reactions to B6, something to do with excess accumulated copper entering the bloodstream.
This is the end of the thread.
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