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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 8 to 32 of 60. Go back in thread:
Posted by ed_uk2010 on August 16, 2010, at 15:57:18
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by Phillipa on August 16, 2010, at 0:18:59
>A very intelligent babbler took it for nerve pain.
Were they still intelligent after they'd taken it?
Sorry - couldn't resist! :)
Posted by 10derHeart on August 16, 2010, at 17:17:06
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety » Phillipa, posted by ed_uk2010 on August 16, 2010, at 15:57:18
Ha, ed, I almost wrote the same post! (great minds think alike) Hoping the person in question would see it, even, as I think he would find it funny...
Don't know if he reads Babble any more, but I know the Babbler Phillipa is thinking of and he definitely was VERY intelligent both before and after.... : -)
(I'm glad you couldn't resist)
Posted by Phillipa on August 16, 2010, at 19:16:56
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety » ed_uk2010, posted by 10derHeart on August 16, 2010, at 17:17:06
10der exactly who referring to. I don't think he reads here anymore too involved in work a new career. And very profitable. Phillipa
Posted by linkadge on August 16, 2010, at 21:30:36
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety » 10derHeart, posted by Phillipa on August 16, 2010, at 19:16:56
I don't know what you mean by "reved up". On marijuann all I wanted to do was eat, sleep, watch movies, and ...... well thats about it.
Reved up?... what like strong coffee? Not for me.
Linkadge
Posted by morgan miller on August 16, 2010, at 22:32:01
In reply to Re: MJ never reved me up, posted by linkadge on August 16, 2010, at 21:30:36
Yeah it is not normal to get a hyperactive reaction to marijuana. I get hyperactive and hyperverbal on marijuana, at least I used to. I think this reaction IS paradoxical.
Posted by bleauberry on August 17, 2010, at 17:45:37
In reply to Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by Leo33 on August 15, 2010, at 14:17:27
I personally think mj is a very good medical substance with many uses. Anorexia, sleep, nausea, pain, anxiety, depression, anhedonia, muscle spasms. Useful in Lyme, MS, and other mystery diseases.
But there are problems in management. Dose size is difficult to control. Consistent chemistry from one batch to another is not reliable unless maybe from a legal dispensary. And of course one could get busted. The cost isn't cheap.
Widely different effects come from different strains. Sativas are usually head-buzz, anti-anhedonia, antidepressant, motivating, stimulating, can cause paranoia. The indica strains are body buzz, couch potato, antianxiety, sometimes depressing, pro-sleep, pro-munchies.
Most are hybrids with genes from both.
Some strains have been isolated that are particularly good for medical use because they display traits primarily in the pain and antidepressant areas.
All these factors play into why everyone has had varying experiences with mj.
It really should be legal everywhere with a doctor's prescription to get specific strains for specific reasons. it makes an excellent medication when it can be managed properly.
Up until about 4 years ago I was a chronic smoker and found mj more helpful than anything in the prescription pad. But cost and fear of jail eventually said no more.
Whether it hurts memory or not, I don't know, I can't remember. :-) Just kidding. Chronic heavy use, yes. Responsible use, no. If someone really wants memory problems, try something legal and recommended like ECT.
Posted by SLS on August 17, 2010, at 18:06:08
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by bleauberry on August 17, 2010, at 17:45:37
Where do you place the importance of the psychomimetic effects of marijuana and its potential to precipitate schizophrenia earlier in life? Of course, very few psychotropics are without untoward effects. However, I am curious how you weigh them against the potential benefits.
- Scott
Posted by sigismund on August 17, 2010, at 18:26:15
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety » bleauberry, posted by SLS on August 17, 2010, at 18:06:08
>Where do you place the importance of the psychomimetic effects of marijuana and its potential to precipitate schizophrenia earlier in life? Of course, very few psychotropics are without untoward effects. However, I am curious how you weigh them against the potential benefits.
There's an interesting video somewhere on Youtube in which a no nonsense British scientist is given injections of THC in the one instance and cannabinoids in the other, and is asked about her mental state and given a questionnaire.
In the case of cannabinoids she had a typical if very positive reaction (I wish this happened to me!) where she thought the whole process was too funny to be able to perform.
In the case of the THC, she said something like 'Oh my God, I feel like someone has just died'.Many people find the difficult side of marijuana quite challenging.
Some people should certainly avoid it.
I know of people in whom it precipitated a breakdown.
My advice would be to avoid it if you don't like it, if it doesn't agree with you.
Some people will take it regardless of their reaction to it, and this is unwise.
Posted by sigismund on August 17, 2010, at 18:28:12
In reply to Re: MJ never reved me up, posted by morgan miller on August 16, 2010, at 22:32:01
>Yeah it is not normal to get a hyperactive reaction to marijuana. I get hyperactive and hyperverbal on marijuana, at least I used to. I think this reaction IS paradoxical.
I wish I did.
That's right though.
Posted by sigismund on August 17, 2010, at 18:29:58
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by europerep on August 16, 2010, at 3:43:43
>paradox reaction would be if it made you all introverted, silent, disinterested in stuff and so on..
Nah, it makes me pretty quiet and introverted.
If it had that effect on me (the one I don't get) I'd take it all the time.
Posted by SLS on August 17, 2010, at 18:31:50
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by sigismund on August 17, 2010, at 18:26:15
Yes. I agree that there are probably compounds in marijuana other than THC that are responsible for its therapeutic effect.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on August 17, 2010, at 19:12:16
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety » sigismund, posted by SLS on August 17, 2010, at 18:31:50
What about MS contin used in pain management in cancer? Phillipa
Posted by linkadge on August 17, 2010, at 20:03:10
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety » bleauberry, posted by SLS on August 17, 2010, at 18:06:08
There is simply no conclusive evidence that marijuanna actually causes schizophrenia. The other studied possibility is that those (like us) with psychiatric disorders seek to use the drug to reduce anhedonia, insomnia, depression etc. i.e. counteract schizophrenia prodrome syptoms that, for some, enevitably progresses to schizophrenia.
The highy anticholinergic TCAs have been well known to precipitate mania and psychotic states in some patients. Does that mean we get rid of the drugs? No, it just means we become more aware of possible side effects, and exercise more judicious, prudent prescription.
You're not doing anyone any favors by forcing the substance further underground to be subjected to lacing and other contamination. There's where the risk of adverse reactions is greatest.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on August 17, 2010, at 20:04:54
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by sigismund on August 17, 2010, at 18:26:15
>I know of people in whom it precipitated a >breakdown.
I know people in whom wellbutrin has precipitated a breakdown.
I had a breakdown on parnate which required hospitalization.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on August 17, 2010, at 20:09:50
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by Phillipa on August 17, 2010, at 19:12:16
The substance cannabidol (or was it cannabinol) actually has potent *antipsychotic* effects. In animal models it counteracts the schizophrenogenic effects of ketamine and/or high dose amphetamine. Interstingly, it is devoid of the adverse motor effects of traditional antipsychotics.
Could it be that schizophrenics were initially exposed to stuff with high cannabidol content - and actually experienced improvement in psychotic state?
I remember reading about studies which suggested it was the THC / cannabidol ratio which was a predictor of the adverse effects people experienced with marijuanna. The THC will give you the "high", but other constituents are perhaps what draws psychiaric patients to it.
Posted by morgan miller on August 17, 2010, at 20:15:08
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by linkadge on August 17, 2010, at 20:03:10
>There is simply no conclusive evidence that marijuanna actually causes schizophrenia.
Many things are not conclusive, but there is evidence. If you are genetically predisposed or possibly genetically predisposed to schizophrenia, why risk it?
Posted by sigismund on August 17, 2010, at 20:29:48
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by linkadge on August 17, 2010, at 20:03:10
>The highy anticholinergic TCAs have been well known to precipitate mania and psychotic states in some patients. Does that mean we get rid of the drugs? No, it just means we become more aware of possible side effects, and exercise more judicious, prudent prescription.
TCAs are made by clean cut Western scientists, whereas marijuana is smoked by Mexicans :)
We had the same thing here, except it was opium and the Chinese.
Not so much racism as xenophobia.
Posted by sigismund on August 17, 2010, at 20:32:55
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by linkadge on August 17, 2010, at 20:09:50
>The substance cannabidol (or was it cannabinol) actually has potent *antipsychotic* effects. In animal models it counteracts the schizophrenogenic effects of ketamine and/or high dose amphetamine. Interstingly, it is devoid of the adverse motor effects of traditional antipsychotics.
>Could it be that schizophrenics were initially exposed to stuff with high cannabidol content - and actually experienced improvement in psychotic
state?Yes, it could.
I wish I could find that video on youtube. I'd post a link to it.
It looked magical to me.
Posted by sigismund on August 17, 2010, at 20:36:38
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by morgan miller on August 17, 2010, at 20:15:08
>If you are genetically predisposed or possibly genetically predisposed to schizophrenia, why risk it?
If you a predisposed to schizophrenia you might (like me) be the kind of person who smoked it out of a desire to change subjective reality regardless of outcome.
So it's illegal in order to protect us.
If you are predisposed to schizophrenia, you might feel alienated from society and want to try it just because it is illegal.
Posted by morgan miller on August 17, 2010, at 22:12:52
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by sigismund on August 17, 2010, at 20:36:38
> >If you are genetically predisposed or possibly genetically predisposed to schizophrenia, why risk it?
>
> If you a predisposed to schizophrenia you might (like me) be the kind of person who smoked it out of a desire to change subjective reality regardless of outcome.
>
> So it's illegal in order to protect us.
>
> If you are predisposed to schizophrenia, you might feel alienated from society and want to try it just because it is illegal.I totally understand why people genetically predisposed to schizophrenia smoke weed, I was just making a point to Linkage that it would be in the best interest of the genetically predisposed to stay away from regardless of the way it made them feel.
I believe one of the reasons why people genetically predisposed to schizophrenia try drugs like marijuana at a young age is because they were neglected or abused and are looking for an escape. This neglect or abuse or both are also likely to have contributed to the development of the illness for many.
I see no reason to keep marijuana illegal. There will be NO change in availability of the drug once it is legalized. I have Never heard of anyone having a difficult time buying marijuana and getting their hands on it. The fact that it is illegal makes almost NO impact on availability and ease of obtainment. Marijuana is everywhere and law enforcement has better things to do that chase those that sell and use a drug that is more benign than alcohol.
Posted by SLS on August 18, 2010, at 5:28:27
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by linkadge on August 17, 2010, at 20:03:10
> There is simply no conclusive evidence that marijuanna actually causes schizophrenia.
Sorry, but I didn't say that. I indicated that it will accelerate its development. Whether or not it actually precipitates psychosis has also been demonstrated.
A simple Google search will reveal a plethora of literature indicating that there are associations between the earlier onset of schizophrenia and the precipitation of psychotic reactions.
I think that marijuana deserves more research before it is deemed safe and effective for treating depression or anxiety disorders. THC and dronabinol may be more of a culprit as psychotomimetics than the other cannibinoids marijuana contains.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on August 18, 2010, at 5:38:38
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by linkadge on August 17, 2010, at 20:09:50
> The substance cannabidol (or was it cannabinol) actually has potent *antipsychotic* effects.
Was this the Schwarcz study n=6?
- Scott
Posted by europerep on August 18, 2010, at 15:28:58
In reply to Re: MJ never reved me up, posted by morgan miller on August 16, 2010, at 22:32:01
> Yeah it is not normal to get a hyperactive reaction to marijuana. I get hyperactive and hyperverbal on marijuana, at least I used to. I think this reaction IS paradoxical.
>
>
no man, seriously :)
the eating thing is what you guys call "the munchies", it's the most common effect of all actually (link was refering to it).. hyperverbal, that's a good way to express it, is a totally regular reaction to good weed.. of course, it is dosage-related, and it depens on the quality.. if you have good MJ and you only get stoned in the sense of "not wanting to move", you either smoked too much, or it is a heavy indica strain.. but there are sativa strains who are totally uplifting.. everyhting that's "haze" is usually uplifting, for example.. hence all the musicians who just love to compose and create on silver haze.. also, it is important that marijuana does not equal cannabis product. everything that's tinctures, for example, is usually hash-based and has a much higher thc content, and is therefore much more heavy on you.. but talking a lot is absolutely definitely not a paradoxical reaction.. it's an effect especially often observed in beginners, but for me it used to be my favorite effect throughout all the time I smoked..
Posted by bleauberry on August 18, 2010, at 20:39:25
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety » bleauberry, posted by SLS on August 17, 2010, at 18:06:08
That's a good question. I guess no one really knows but I can tell you what I think
Heavy use could precipitate a mild schizophrenic-like experience. Oversmoking at any time can cause a similar paranoia, seeing thngs that aren't there, hearing things. It isn't really schizo though it feels like it and looks it, it is just plain too stoned. Shouldn't have smoked that much.
In longterm chronic use, I think the Indica strains have a very low likelihood of causing schizo-like problems. The Sativas are much more risky.
I have never actually heard of, seen, or read about documented schizo from mj. Personally I feel the benefits of mj greatly outweigh any risks. That is, if it is used responsibly. Medical purposes only require very small doses. If someone is smoking a lot more than they should, then yeah something might get weird.
> Where do you place the importance of the psychomimetic effects of marijuana and its potential to precipitate schizophrenia earlier in life? Of course, very few psychotropics are without untoward effects. However, I am curious how you weigh them against the potential benefits.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by bleauberry on August 18, 2010, at 21:03:15
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by sigismund on August 17, 2010, at 20:36:38
Quote from one of the earlier posts:
"So it's illegal in order to protect us."
If that were true, then why are not cigarettes illegal? That's a leading cause of multiple diseases and death. Pot never killed anyone or gave them a disease. Well, I mean, I am sure someone somewhere has been injured by longterm chronic smoking, but really, no contest when compared to tobacco.
Same with alcohol. No contest. Drunk drivers kill all the time, mj drivers hardly ever.
We know alcohol and cigarettes cause serious problems and death on a wide scale. But they remain legal and widely accepted as ok. We have not even a small fraction of evidence pointing to mj having that kind of destructive power. On the contrary, what evidence we do have points to it as having healing power.
So the reason it is illegal has nothing to do with protecting us.
Several states now have made it legal with a prescription. Punishments in some states have been lowered to not much more than a traffic ticket for possession or cultivation of small personal amounts.
Some countries view it as so illegal that the punishment might be life in jail or execution. Other countries allow full cultivation, genetic modification, and buying it to smoke in your local coffee shop.
The story of why it is illegal is pretty interesting. Several variables involved with that. But none of them have anything to do with protecting our health.
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